Twinky

This is slightly off-topic. Regarding this re-search stuff, I was given a topic upon which to write my Corps paper, whatever they called it. My work on this was really enjoyable. I learned a huge amount. There was no TWI teaching that I knew of upon the wider subject, where my studies took me; I ended up rummaging all over the OT and NT and it is stuff that stays with me now. Powerful. My first draft was sent back because there weren't enough references to collaterals and other TWI material (Bible verses, note, were well quoted and all refs given). I had to go through my paper and insert refs to TWI materials - and in some cases, tweak what I'd written so as to be able to make reference to some TWI book. It added nothing; it wasn't relevant. It seems that several people read the paper (there was only ever one copy) and quite a number came back to me and said it was great stuff, they'd enjoyed reading it, it was new and interesting and should be widely shared. You suppose it was? Ha ha, think again. I never heard any aspect of it ever referred to again. 18months later I was rudely and publicly ejected from TWI. But what I learned (what God showed me) stays with me; I apply it now; I try to live by it. LCM gave me this topic, no doubt expecting something quite different from what he got; I suspect he wanted to pinch the work and use it to defend his own actions. Unfortunately, it showed him for the hypocrite, liar and adulterer that he was. Monday is going to be a very tough day for me. But I will draw strength and wisdom from what I learned in researching that paper over 20 years ago.

Too right on this. Okay to be "spiritually angry" if you were a leader especially if you were LCM. Or maybe a region coord or some such.Anybody else that might get angry ... I don't think anyone would have dared actually unless they wanted a fast ticket out.

Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could over-spiritualise this but - hey - what confidence!!!!!!!!!! The joy of simply trusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BlueCord, I wish you and your wife well on your journey out of TWI. God bless and prosper you both. At the Cafe, we're individuals with individual points of view. We are not TWI clones, all saying the same thing. Unless you are a VPW apologist (which you're not) your point of view is as valid as everyone else's. You can also expect your PoV to change over time. VPW was dead before I got involved; I suffered under Pontius Martindale. :mad2:/> For myself, when I first stumbled across this site, I was horrified, really horrified, at the things people were saying against this great ministry, TWI. How could people say such things? I was appalled at a number of levels. And yet... and yet... the stories people told had a strange coherency with my own experience. A strange ring of truth that was most disconcerting. As I continued to read here, I found that a lot of my suppressed concerns about TWI were voiced and the truth behind those concerns was articulated. I read with fascinated horror. This site is one of the places that set me free from TWI lies. Now, I enjoy exploring life with God and finding new ways to help and serve other people. Genuinely. No element of fear, or ostracism for non-compliance. I appreciate the wisdom of mature Christians from other strands of Christianity - and getting along with them without feeling I need to defend my PoV or be browbeaten by their PoV. Indeed, this very evening I've had a most interesting conversation with a deeply committed Trinitarian Christian and we can respect each others views of who Jesus Christ is (and how he came to be) and his gifts to us, and still learn from each other. You and your wife please just put your confidence in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ to guide you through what may seem strange times, and lead you to a place of peace and rest and green pasture, where you can first rebuild yourselves and your relationships, and then go out with strength wherever your path may lead. We here will help you on your spiritual journey, but no-one will tell you where to go or what to think. I'd like to extend a sincere invitation to your wife to join us and give voice to her legitimate concerns. If she doesn't want to join as a cafe resident, she can come as a lurker and just see what we talk about. If she comes in to "drink the coffee" [sign in], she's welcome to argue about anything she chooses. :drink:/>

Sounds like fabulous fun, John.

Exactly, Waysider. Who was he afraid of, anyway? Where was God's hedge of protection around him? (ah, wait: a hedge isn't bullet-proof) You know what killed that little man? It was FEAR. ...Not to mention, cancer, alcoholism, and mean spiritedness.

Welcome, BlueCord. Best wishes for a happy and healthy exit. You sound very determined and I think you will recover from Waybrain fairly quickly. You are NOT turning your back on God. You have no allegiance to a corrupt organisation, a false prophet, a fear-mongering lie machine. Whatever manipulations or threats or ill-treatment the Way throws at you, remember they did that to at least one poster here and probably more than one. Expect your name to be dragged through the mud and you will be called a possesso or maybe a homosexual or slandered in other ways. Don't get hung up on doctrine, look at what the local churches do, see how they treat you and each other, and don't be afraid to go to another if one doesn't suit you. You will find many excellent people who really walk the walk, and don't seek after their own glorification. Be open to hearing new interpretations of familiar scriptures, and consider what truth there may be in the new interpretations you're hearing. God has a rich, full, genuinely serving life ahead of you, one that is not empty or meaningless or unproductive. Enjoy exploring it. You can always bring confusion or doubt here. We've all escaped (with greater or lesser pain) and learned new ways to think, live, and enjoy life. We know it can be a strange journey you're embarking on.

Fear. Surrounding by bodyguards. I think of the Prez of the USA and the vast motorcade that carries him around. The henchmen and heavies that apparently surrounded VPW (he was dead before I got too involved, so no personal knowledge). I don't disbelief the reports. Even pop stars and other celebs have heavies to protect them (or enhance their egos). And I think of the Queen of England, a tiny woman only 5'2", who walks about, stands about, stands in open motor vehicles. With very little obvious protection detail. I have been at an event where she has been so close I could have reached out and touched her (she wouldn't mind; the very discreet SAS would have been watching veeerrry carefully). You (as Americans) might think she has little or no power; you'd be wrong. Simply, she is understated in all she does. She is the head of the Anglican church and always goes to church on Sundays (usually driving herself there) and sits quietly in some random pew (nowhere special, not the pew reserved for her.) She means it when she prays for her people, prays for God's strength in her life. But that's not a part of her public face; few actually see that. She herself writes, and records, a Christmas message and always mentions Jesus Christ and his accomplishments, and if you read through the speeches, she quietly explains the gospel message - to the world. Oh, and she never rants or raves at people. If the cornfield clown had been shot at.killed, it's hard to see what difference, in world terms, that would make. If the Queen had been killed, there would have been international mourning.

Hello Oldies. Long time no see. Is it really ten years? No, not quite that long.

In my Spam box in my Yahoo account appear various movies (adverts, really) which are a real pain. I daren't leave this account on Spam (have to return to Inbox) but even so, random movie ads will play in the background. I know this because they have sound - all is quiet for a while, then while I'm perhaps away from the laptop or in a different account (like Facebook or even GSC) - suddenly a spam movie will blare out. Quite startling, sometimes. And the laptop works slowly while it is thinking about what to do with the spam ad (before it starts playing and making noises). I have a Yahoo ad blocker which stops random ads appearing in the Inbox - however, this doesn't (clearly) work with Yahoo's own spam ads. Anybody got any suggestions, please?

I think if he'd have abused my daughter, though, I'd be wanting not to talk but to chop his head off with a hatchet, or kick him VERY hard in a place he'd find very uncomfortable. Or spit in his face. If he'd abused me ... I dunno, from what I saw of the daughter on a TV show (Dr Phil?), she's doing remarkably well for herself, considering. It wouldn't be surprising if she has some real anger towards him and if she didn't ever want to face him - in a courtroom or any other setting.

Waysider, on those restorative justice schemes, one of the requirements is to have to face the victim(s) and be told exactly what the effects on the victim have been. Restorative justice shows offenders that all of their activities affect others and >>they themselves<< are responsible for their choices and actions and can be held accountable for them. It's all done in a carefully controlled environment. Both/all parties have to agree, and there are trained counsellors / facilitators and a lot of support for the victim. The offender can't answer back, has to be quiet and listen, and not try to "justify" the offending behaviour. There's no physical contact (the vic can't beat the offender up!) It isn't suitable for all offences, particularly those involving domestic or sexual violence, and a careful risk assessment needs to be done, to safeguard the victim from further harm. Offenders who have been through the process often find it horrendous and may prefer to go to prison. Having to face the victim(s) makes their crime all the more real and forces the crims to see their victims as real people with real feelings and emotions. They have to face the anger, the hurt, the - whatever - of their victims. The victims find an opportunity to vent and often feel they have some "justice," where the sterile court system often makes them feel powerless, just a cog and not a person. If this abusive "minister" can't face his victims, he's gonna have an awfully hard time explaining himself to Jesus Christ - whose name he has taken in vain and used to abuse these young women. Jesus as principal victim isn't going to be all lovey-dovey about it.

Perhaps before then he will meet some nice "boyfriends" in prison. Find out what unwanted sexual attention feels like. No, I don't really wish him ill. But I don't wish him joy and happiness either. Be nice if he had to face his victims and hear their opinion of him. That would actually be harder for him than anything.

Nice to see you again after such a long absence, spuddy one.

I am really surprised at the lack of response on this thread. At the time I started it, there was a big row brewing over a couple of threads about "changes in doctrine" and I rather thought this might become a heated thread and one where people debated. But no. Them as wanted to row over other threads - have nothing to say. Which says it all really. Just threadkillers.

Hap, they might have been Huguenots but I think VPW would have enjoyed playing up the "standing for the truth" element if that were the case. He probably never knew - or understood - who and what the Huguenots were. I'm sure he never did any family research himself. Too much like hard work.

Who believes this story? Who's seen this chronology back to the 1300s? I doubt very much that they can trace the family line (and which family line would that be?) back that far. Unless there is some ancestor who was very grand. I thought this considered itself a mainly German family? Why choose some French coastal village as the ancestral heritage? It is 6 hrs fast driving in today's conditions, to get westward to Aachen, the nearest point of Germany. What, did they go from France to Germany and then to the USA? How long did that take, with a donkey and cart or on foot? I'd suspect the whole story is fabricated and someone found the name which looked similar and decided to build a legend, a fantasy, upon it, to add credibility to the ancientness of this "revered" (or reviled) family. Perhaps it's a family legend, not accusing anyone in the last few generations of inventing it. In any event... So what? How does this help with understanding JESUS CHRIST? (who genuinely had a long bloodline) (and never traded on it, himself)

The only bloodline that matters is the blood line that Jesus "wrote" on the cross. The descendants of that character you mention can make their own choices, bloodline or no. I respect that they might want to do something Godly. I don't respect how they choose to do that, by following in grandpa's footsteps. (Oops, double post.) Do not attempt to join forums after exceeding two drink limit. :smilie_kool_aid:/>

Well said, Chocky.

"Governments" is a choice of word made by the translators. KJV uses "higher powers" and other versions, other descriptors. The word "governments" or "powers" is this: ἐξουσίαις (exousiais) — 3 OccurrencesRomans 13:1 N-DFP GRK: Πᾶσα ψυχὴ ἐξουσίαις ὑπερεχούσαις ὑποτασσέσθω NAS: to the governing authorities. For there is no KJV: unto the higher powers. For INT: Every soul to authorities above [him] let be subject Ephesians 3:10 N-DFP GRK: καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς NAS: to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly KJV: and powers in INT: and the authorities in the Titus 3:1 N-DFP GRK: αὐτοὺς ἀρχαῖς ἐξουσίαις ὑποτάσσεσθαι πειθαρχεῖν NAS: to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, KJV: and powers, to obey magistrates, INT: them to rulers to authorities to be subject to be obedient So, you can see that "governments" is somebody's private interpretation. Derived from "exousia" (usu tr "authority" or "power"). Now the question becomes: to which "higher powers" or "authorities" is one to be subject? The ultimate "higher power" is God himself and that is to whom we are to be subject (if we profess to be Christians - or Jewish people - can't speak for other groups!) "For there is no power but from God; the powers that be are ordained by God." You have difficulty with this, Tom. Think about the many times in the OT that the Hebrews were warned that if they did not live according to the principles they'd been taught, they would be overrun by Amalekites, Assyrians or other marauding hordes? Were those oppressors "ordained by God" to show the Hebrews the error of their ways? Maybe! Who can fathom the mind of God? Remember, as a people, a nation, the Hebrews/ Israelites/ Jews were redeemed, time and time again. Tragic for the individuals (and their families) who were killed or captured; who knows how their faithfulness or otherwise might be treated - in eternity? What we do know is that the marauding hordes were all ultimately defeated, totally eradicated. Somebody mentioned on this thread the millions killed in the holocaust - but the regime that did that has come to a swift end and its successor regime, modern-day Germany, is very hot in punishing anyone exhibiting those ideas now. Pol Pot's regime has ended. So has Stalin's. Gal 5:22,23 "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" - this is what the Christian's "higher power" expects of us. And this sort of ties in with following verses of Rom 13 "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same." Perhaps we all need to see with longer vision. Not looking just at our short-term lives on this earth, but our lives in eternity. Looking to Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" - this same Jesus, subject to a cruel and barbaric set of "higher powers" in this earthly realm (both Roman and religious), and the one whose vision far exceeded the earthly life that he lived, and as a result was resurrected, and his example still exists over 2000 years later.

Okay, let's hear it then, TLC. Noting that you do reference Pentecost, are you also saying that makes no difference in the gospel that was / should be preached?

Mark, you can pet the kitty cats if you can catch them. One loves me (and only me) to fondle her - otherwise, she hides under the stairs if anyone else enters the house. Other one comes out and likes to be petted by walking under a stationary hand. Likes to be around people though. Picked her up once (by accident). Only had the silly creatures 8 years. They were born in the Cats Protection sanctuary, so I doubt they've ever been ill-treated. Yep, I think we'd have to agree that the verses you quote are both the gospel Jesus preached, and the gospel Paul preached.

Okay, guys... y'all keep saying there are a lot of differences between the gospel as preached by Jesus, and that as expounded by Paul. So have at it. What do you perceive as the differences, and why do you think that? Are the differences appropriate? Do some want to live like Jewish people? Or do they want to consider themselves as "dogs" (Mt 15:26) which is what Jesus calls a beseeching Canaanite woman? Right. Tossing the ball in...to.... plaaaayyyyyy.... now!

And therein lies the danger of reading everything in the epistles as though it applies directly to us, now (in whatever country and political regime we find ourselves). Wasn't this a political bit by Paul, who didn't want people falling out and getting into trouble with the super-power of the day? It's still a good idea to avoid conflict with government bodies... but there are limits. This could be a very interesting topic to discuss.