Twinky

Interesting, I was somewhere recently and heard about some other thing, and I thought: "Ha, TWI did that!" and they did, a few years after the event that I was talking of. Can't remember details now. (Sorry, that sounds vague - I mean, TWI was copying something else that was already out in public, and passing it off as their own.) As said above: "Once you see the telltale signs of cults, it's inescapable to not recognize it all around........" I'll give VPW this. He was an expert. He was expert at copying what others did, and passing it off as his own. If only he had spent as much time with the Lord as he did in finding and copying other people's ideas ... well, we'd all be in a different place now. It's often said that prisons are universities for criminals, at least some of them, where people can hone their knowledge of their chosen line of crime, make new connections, etc. I'm thinking that TWI and in particular the WC was a university for fraudsters and plagiarists, for those of that bent who wanted to learn the ropes from experts. (Thankfully, most of us were better-intentioned.) Fake university, fake degrees. Perfect!

Get a fake degree at Pike's Peak - give a fake degree, from Indiana. Monkey see, monkey do.

Welcome back, 70s. These days I try to keep things very simple: love God, and love my fellow human beings as best I can. I have friends of various theological stripes; we can AGREE to differ (very unWay-like!). It is good to question what you hear; there's a lot of rubbish in churches, sounds good, doesn't seem to have any Biblical support or (so far as I understand) has a chunk of what might have been Biblical support, missing. Modern songs are rather wacky and there are some I walk out on, "needing to have a toilet stop" or some such. When I first really started to get my mind back, I attended a local Bible school which was once a week for a year; some bits were interesting, some very strange. I discussed some of those ideas with the vicar in my church and he poo-poo'd the ideas too, which gave me confidence. Slowly examining your beliefs is a good thing. I love rummaging around in a selection of Bibles for a decent answer. I'm happy to change my mind if I can see Biblical support for something. Church liturgy and tradition leave me cold though I accept there is a place for ritual, tradition, etc as long as it doesn't take the place of what it represents. It's good to keep checking, too; we all come to it with a set of biases (Wayfers worse than most churchy people) and as we grow and develop our understanding, some of our other beliefs may change too. Do please share if there is anything in particular that you've learned, that might help someone else here.

Hello, Signals. Welcome to the Cafe! Jesus freaks? They talk about Jesus now? (not "Christ"?) Hmm. In the words of the song, Do you (they) know my Jesus? Or are they still preaching "another" Jesus - NOT the one most Christians know? Anyway... new thread to discuss this. It's not about Wrenn.

Thanks for that, Steve. Highly relevant to a conversation I was having with a friend just last night. Missed seeing your posts! Don't be a-dyin' on us. We need your breadth of knowledge and your calm posts! Best wishes for your return to, and continuing, good health.

I recently came across a document, an insert into the graduation "program" leaflet, that explained what all the parts of the WC seal were supposed to represent. If I can locate that again, I'll scan it and post it for you. I imagine, can't recall, that the 5 sided seal is supposed to represent "grace" and of course the words around it represent the "five gift ministries" that were all that TWI seemed to see.

It wasn't an accredited degree at any stage previously, so snowball's chance that it's accredited now. If someone already has an accredited degree, then they get a "bachelor's degree" from TWI. If the candidate doesn't have a degree already, they get an "associate degree" or some such. How does this character say he got his "degree" 2010-2012? It's supposed to be four years with an apprentice year (in the field, raising Corps sponsorship), and a practicum year (running classes) as well as two years in rez. FWIW, we qualified for degrees in Manipulative Studies, with majors in Terror Tactics and other classes in Fear-mongering and in Sexual Abuse.

I'm just saying this again in case anybody missed it. I just wouldn't want to do anything that might lead someone into the clutches of TWI. Nothing that might lead others to danger. Nothing to put a stumbling block in some innocent seeker's way. I might recommend the books that were plagiarised - stuff by Stiles, Bullinger, etc. There is also good modern literature, very readable, by (for example) John Stott that doesn't come with invisible sticky strings attached. A good Christian bookshop should be able to offer advice.

"A soft answer turneth away wrath." "Be kind to one another." "An ounce of kindness always goes a lot further than an ounce of bitterness." No doubt other people here can also supply proverbs about being nice to other people.

Doing jus' fine, thanks, T-Bone. I see you managed to edit your post above... just seen that. And now to bed. It's 1.15am, way after the time those pesky devil spirits come out to hunt. (Or was that, when some of the Way head honchos come out to hunt?) Anyhow, the only peskies here are my two foolish cats. (See their photo at side.)

Were you going to say something, T-Bone?

Thomas, he doesn't say he's a preacher of any kind, just that he has a BA in Theology. (Well, so do I... issued by TWI. I also have real degrees, in very difficult subjects, from properly accredited organisations.)

I would love to hear Timlee's accounts of just some of the times he has confronted Way leadership. Details of who, what was said, when, and what was the cause of the confrontation. There must be much to learn, in his accounts.

Interesting article, Rocky. ...Be wise [cautious] as a serpent...

Nauseating, sure is. More violent than TWI but still the emotional scarring for the victims. The strange thing about this cult is that it was started by a woman. Hey, you guys, it's fine to have freedom of religion. But freedom to abuse? Abuse individuals by these wicked acts? Abuse the Lord by taking his name in vain, using it as a disguise for the works of the devil? There's a lot to be said for more organised, mainstream religious entities. Not saying the mainstream churches are without fault (noted the abuse by the RC church over decades) but at least there are some checks on more obviously egregious behavior.

Jim Jack, if you want to know about awesome teachers and people who do awesome things, I'd love you to come with me to either of the two churches I regularly attend, spend time with the ministers there and with the congregations, and come out with us on some of our many and varied genuine outreach and assistance events. You will find many who walk the talk, and talk the walk. There are many people who are worthy of national and international respect, genuine scholarship, genuine very high level appointments (one is chaplain to the Queen), one is a peer of the realm (a genuine aristocrat) - and all are so humble, quiet, gentle, and inclusive. There are no TV evangelists, but from time to time the BBC broadcasts the Easter or a Christmas service from Bath abbey (where the Queen's chaplain has his "regular job" as the Rector of the abbey) and the rector is the nicest man who really points the way to Jesus and honours God. You want what he's got, not because he "sells" it in loud manner, but because of his quietness, peacefulness and confidence in the Lord. The peer has set up many programs to assist homeless and vulnerable people and is a real "mover and shaker" to get things done that bring Christ to the overlooked, and to build Christian unity among believers. Yet he's so self-effacing that he is easy to overlook. I know of several who have given land or large amounts of money for community projects (it's taken me a long time to find this out because they don't shout about it). I know people who have very little in financial terms, but spend their time and energy tirelessly doing things that benefit their community, because of their love for Christ and their desire to show that love. In fact, I could write a very long list of awesome but very humble people that I meet through these churches and the other very active churches, of all denominations, throughout this city. Jim Jack, I can arrange meetings for you with some mightily awesome Christian folks, who from genuine Christian love seek the wellbeing of their community in a huge variety of ways. I can't promise splashy miracles. I can promise genuine heart and genuine and observable turn-round in a myriad of ways, in people's lives. Please let me know when you would like to come with me.

T-Bone, I always read your posts with great interest. :)

Who? What? Where? When? How? And beware those articles that give you information overload - only it's not information, it's just words, words, words. I like to read articles with a mental red pen to cross out all the "filler" words and pseudo or irrelevant information. Sometimes there's not much left! And when I'm reading a news report, I mentally substitute loaded verbs with more neutral ones. "Admit" is a good one for that: try using a word like "acknowledge" or "concur" or even just "said."

But Sky, you know you had to go about in pairs, 2 x 2, you and your wife together. You know you aren't capable of doing things alone. So why did you need two cars? /sarc/ Maybe they wanted y'all to use those pedal cars that kids play with. That'd save loads on gas, regardless, tires, etc. Hey, good idea! What a load of bullocks.

You make interesting points about the ft corps timeline. Twas shortly after they kicked me out, with max ignominy. But if I'd been there, there would have been both me and my fiance to support as ft corps. That would have meant 6 FT corps to, what, 20 committed wayfers. Be kind... 40 wayfers. Unsupportable in so many ways. Get rid of me, my fiance also goes, hey presto, 2/3 the bill goes.

Good on Lindsay. All power to her elbow as she exposes even more of the corrupt evil of RRF.

I hear ya, chocky. Absolutely.

Not sure that I believe we only get rewards at the bema. There are rewards in this life too. Restoring the years that the locust has eaten isn't a promise for a future life or wherever - it may be, but it also means in this present life. Our lives should demonstrate God's faithfulness to His promises. Did God not reward Job's faithfulness openly, right there and then? Many OT examples. The gospels speak of this, too. For myself, I think the reward of peace of mind, joy in God's love, enjoying the fellowship of like-minded Christian friends, are all part of our "now" reward. Nice is there is something later;meantime, I'll enjoy the rewards (fruit of the spirit) now. Those frauds at TWI can't enjoy "fruit" rewards - their "rewards" are limited to Gal 5:19-21 only.

I still stand by this, my earlier post. And I think that the tell-all stories from Pen, KK, Kristen Stewart, Sky, etc are a part of their own cleansing and a part of their repentance, and in large part a way to help communities (including online) understand and heal. I would like to think that in their own ways they are also active in helping the physical communities around them. There are many ways to do that, only some of which involve church- or religious-based activities.

Plenty of information here about the calibre and credentials those putting together this REV. You wouldn't necessarily expect the authors of, say, Dick and Jane books to be as proficient in English literature as, say, Shakespeare or perhaps John Steinbeck or Mark Twain. So you would tend to take the D&J authors rather less seriously, if they were to announce D&J or any other like work, as a great work of literature. And if they launched into anything else, some other kind of writing, you'd expect peer review, support from established patrons or authors, etc. Without looking at REV, I'd be suspicious that it was the equivalent of kids' book authors trying to be literary giants. Just not quite the ring of credibility you'd want. Might be okay as froth, pulp fiction, but credible literature... no. Surely it's an author's role to convince his readers of his credibility and that its worth the reader's tIme to read - not the readers who have to make excuses or defend the work...?