Twinky

A bit off topic this, but responds to Mike's post about being "caught away." With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time does not have the sequential arrangement we understand. RIGHT NOW Adam is being created, is sinning, and is being cast out. RIGHT NOW the books of the OT, all of them, are being written. RIGHT NOW Jesus is being conceived, born, living his life, being murdered, and rising. RIGHT NOW we are living our lives, in the present as we understand it, and in the future as we do not yet perceive those lives. God invented time and inhabits it. And His time is not our timescale. Many Christians understand this. It is also borne out by astronomical data. That's way beyond what my brain comprehends. I wonder if the "caught away" part is a peek into the future, or a peek into the spiritual world that is invisible to us? A couple of references: Elijah being "caught up" in 2 Kings 2:11; and 2 Ki 6:17 where the spiritual war is going on all around Elisha and his servant, and Elisha prays that his servant gets that peek into the spiritual world around him.

I'm not even going to express an opinion on Mike's "...we already are into the beginning of the Return, and that it is already underway..." save to say that my understanding is that NO-ONE knows when this event will be. Though technically I suppose we have been into the "beginning of the return" (or at least awaiting the return) since the day Jesus ascended.

The pure mind of Christ????????????? (Guffaws loudly) You know some other "Christ," Mike. But here's a song for you:

A lot, if not all, of them, were M&A'd well before this video. Frankly, I don't care what they do. Getting a life, a real life, a richly abundant life, would be a good start.

Since scholarly "man-made"attempts are in fact pretty scholarly, look at the cast of players for most reputable Bible versions (translators). They aren't one man's version of what it says; nor are they simply decision by committee. It is useful to read passages in more than one version, which gives a wider look-round of words and thoughts that have been translated, and also keeps vocabulary up to date (one of the reasons VPW used "KJV" was to show off his ability at understanding - at understanding what Bible scholars have been teaching and printing in later versions, for centuries. Yet he taught it - ha ha - as if he were the only one who knew this. "...every time I open up a PFAL collateral I’m exposed to many verses and sometimes large passages of the same KJV verses. I think that counts for something." No, it counts for nothing. Read these verses for yourself and in context. VPW was outrageous at taking verses out of context, choosing what supported whatever point he propounded at the time. You must know that, surely? Even in AV (what you call KJV; try getting the name right, for starters) in many printings there are references back to OT passages where a fragment is quoted in the NT. Did VPW ever refer people back to the OT? Have you ever looked back into the OT at what's referenced? Sometimes the OT passage referred to goes on for several chapters. The OT is not irrelevant; it's a significant part of the background and thinking in the gospels (you read them too, don't you?) as well as in the epistles. Did you go to Sunday school as a child? If so, you will probably know the second verse to the one I'm going to reference in a moment. Be sure you aren't putting yourself in the second verse category. (sings) "The wise man built his house upon the rock..."

Mike - do you spend this much time and effort in actually searching the scriptures? Jesus said: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (Jn 5:39) Testify of whom? Of Jesus Christ - not of any man, and especially, the scriptures do not testify about VPW! Beware, Mike, if you are not searching the scriptures, because Jn 5:40 warns, it seems sorrowfully to me: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." If you can't find Jesus in simply searching the scriptures but need to actually come to him - however can you find him, and the life he offers, by searching something other than the scriptures? Beware this also, Mike: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?" (Jn 5:44-45)

DWBH: for real? How much grossing-out can there be? (and NO don't tell me, enough is enough!) I'm still nauseous over the stuff you told me in PM.

Very funny, WW

WC32, my oh my, I begin to feel old. If they were still denoting Corps in that way, they'd be on WC45 or thereabouts now. Aren't they called "Class of xxxx" nowadays? so I've read here. Actually I reckon they must be back to the Zero Corps now - can't imagine a huge number of people wanting to throw their lives away in this cult. The days of Corps intakes in the hundreds are long gone, never to return. TWI'd never admit that no-one wants to sign up - would say instead that people of appropriate calibre haven't applied, or some such lie.

Quite, Chockfull.

FOR MIKE: Please follow this link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism Observe the definitions. Observe how references are set out. The references are RIGHT THERE in the text at the point where work is referred to, copied or quoted. The references point to footnotes, where the precise location of the original idea or phrase is noted. Sometimes these footnotes are placed right at the bottom of the page on which they occur (as in Wiki articles); sometimes at the end of each chapter in a book; and sometimes collected together at the end of the book under the different chapter headings. Everything is CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE. Any student who has submitted a thesis for a first degree (Bachelor's degree) or an advanced degree (Master's or Doctorate) will have completed that thesis by referencing other people's work in this manner. Therefore, if VPW had indeed got (firstly) a bachelor's degree in some aspect of theology, and (secondly) a doctorate, he'll have learned to quote other people's work in this manner. Not to do so certainly would not fall within appropriate academic standards, and may lead to an accusation of plagiarism. And he will have been sternly warned about plagiarism, copying the works of others, without giving appropriate credit. Quoting too much of someone else's original work (ie, what the original author writer has found out for him/herself, and building on the shoulders of the giants they have referenced and footnoted) will also lead to problems, this time of copyright infringement. It's only okay, if there is written permission from the author. I'll leave it to you to look up "copyright" in Wikipedia or some such. In essence, both plagiarism and copyright infringement are theft of intellectual property. Theft of ideas, of thought processes. Potentially leading to loss of other people's financial rewards for their intellectual property. Plagiarism and breach of copyright are not victimless crimes. VPW wanted us to think that he was a learned man. Why then didn't he act like a learned man, one deserving of academic respect? He wanted "his people" to act like learned students. Why not then give them the tools to do so? By that I mean, the appropriate references to reputable authors, their works, their research. It's not enough to sell The Companion Bible in the bookstore. CB was out of copyright, which is why VPW was happy to use it and let "his people" use it. Nevertheless, even then VPW didn't supply proper references. just pinched stuff wholesale from the careful appendices.

Ah, GVC, our esteemed leader was "spiritually angry" and we too had to learn what to be spiritually angry about. What he was really angry about was nothing particularly spiritual - it was his wife and Rosalie gettin' it together in more ways than one. Hence, no doubt, his homo rants.

I believe Jesus Christ can heal all manner of diseases, whether by casting out devil spirits, or directly healing, or working through the hands, minds and skills of medical staff. Thank God we live in a time where there are ways of combatting the diseases! Thank God we live long enough to get these diseases (emphasis on the "living long enough"). I learned long ago that praying for healing doesn't preclude the use of drugs to get rid of disease. I sometimes wonder if the "leprosy" of OT books like Lev 14, 15 etc might be referring not to leprosy as we now understand it but to cancers of various types. Certainly more modern translations when referring to diseased people often translate "leprosy" as "serious skin disease." Could be cancers that's actually being discussed. Chemo and radiation treatment aren't fun, but they surely beat the alternative of dying a painful death. Glad you've come through it well, GVC.

lThe thing is, GVC, much of what they did didn't seem like "control" at the time, because those who were "controlled" had been beaten into submission or at least compliance. The control exerted over us was insidious. It was more overt once one joined the in-rez WC - in fact, we were told it was spiritual bootcamp for three months - but the three months never ended, it just got more and more controlling with so much busywork that there was no time to realise how controlling everything had become. That's the nature of cults. And unfortunately, like many practices of TWI, it started off (apparently) good and sensible. Some people do have real time management difficulties. They let time drift away and don't achieve what they should - whether it's washing the car, or getting their (paid) job done - because they waste that time watching TV, playing computer games, or watching paint dry. So to have a plan for the day can be quite helpful - probably we all do it naturally to some extent. If you are an employee, your boss may also have a time managed plan for your day. If you're self-employed, you certainly need to manage time, if you want to make a sufficient profit. To review where one actually spent the time and whether it matched the plan can be really valuable. The same also applies to money management - as a qualified debt adviser, I can tell you a zillion ways people waste money when they're deep in debt because they haven't a clue how to handle money within a budget. I am constantly amazed by people's inventiveness when it comes to how they spend their money on non-essentials when there isn't enough for what they must pay for. TWI of course took both time and financial management to an extreme. In rez Corps have an allowance monthly, not enough, and it has to cover all incidentals (like mailing letters to spiritual partners) as well as doing laundry, buying books and materials, tithing, etc. To get everyone to do time management is also useful - we all have a finite number of hours in which to work, eat, play and sleep. TWI used everything not as a help or guide, but as a big cosh to beat people. One size fits all: so the biggest cosh came out to beat everyone with. But the big cosh started out as a seeming wise word, then a gentle tap on the shoulder, then graduated to a slap on the wrist, then a slap with a slipper, then a whack with a bamboo cane... you get the idea. It's only if you'd seen the cosh at the beginning and known they planned to use it, that you'd have fled from the control.

Topic is: Is it okay to recommend Weirwille's books to others? Not: Is it okay to continue Mike's soap opera? Puh-leeze!!! Though the soap opera might be entertaining for some of the newer people here, for a while.

Not to mention others who never were Corps grads - some never completed, and some never started Corps training.

If it's run by M and J, higherground, what's become of F?

Quite, TLC. Unless CG has really changed his spots. Only Johniam can really tell us what organization it is that he attends.

TLC, I found this by just putting the name Johniam quoted in Google search box: http://stlouisbiblefellowship.net/ But I suspect it might be some other organization. Doesn't look Geerite. Johniam - I'd really have doubts about hanging out with a Geerite group. After the ***disgusting*** and belittling way he treated the European believers when he'd been exiled out of the USA, and the devastation that he caused at HQ, I simply do not think the man can be trusted. His ego is so huge that ... well, faith can move mountains. But it doesn't move CG. His ego must be much bigger than a mountain.

Really good to hear that, Johniam. Is St. Louis Bible Fellowship an offshoot of TWI? Or some completely independent organization with never any link with TWI? A quick look at its website suggests not.

Most churches have at least two people counting the collection and opening the donation envelopes. To double check the money - and to double-check each other. In larger churches more people would be required. Of course, all TWI needed was a shovel to park it straight into the coffers. Can't speak for offshoots. Hopefully they are on a better footing... CFFM probably is, can't speak for any others.

Here ya go, OS.

Do you prefer brandy or whisky?

Tom Knupp, huh? Never heard of him. Perhaps he was M&A'd before I got to HQ. I was told it was translated by JYdL. so of course I believed it. But I can also easily believe that it was someone else. A bit off topic, but I also understood that J0rge H!itchf3ld did the Spanish version of the PFAL book. Anyone know if that's true? Or not?

We've done VPW, thankfully to death. I don't know how much contact VPW himself would actually have had with someone like JYdL, very minimal - the other trustees and the dancing Prez would have done much more to "develop" JYdL and his wife. So, to bring this thread back to the topic - anybody know anything much about JYdL? You newer escapees, what do you know of him, if anything? I quite liked the man I last saw - gosh, would be over 20 years ago now. He didn't strike me as future Prez material (but then, why should he have done?) but as quiet, obedient and committed. He was very busy, in International Outreach, translated the PFAL books into French and recorded the French version of PFAL. And that must have been 30 years ago. It may be that being "quiet, obedient and committed" is precisely what's got him appointed as Prez.