Twinky

For the above Bible study group, I use BibleHub to help me prepare. There are many different versions of the Bible that can be viewed, and many different commentaries. Some of the commentaries are helpful, others are clearly written by someone with an agenda, and others are so old and written in such a dense style that they are almost unreadable. But hey - there's freedom to look at these! Which, even if densely written in an old-fashioned style, are still more readable and sensible than the kiddie-style contradictory stuff in the collaterals.

I like to examine what I think, and ponder why I think it. I try to put Way doctrine out of my mind - after all, I had some Christian upbringing before I got involved with that - but TWI came along at a time when I was wanting to know more, a decade or so after having been bored silly in my teens with "church." I go to a little Bible study group and we are slowly working through the gospel of John. The study guidebook is by Tom Wright. It asks some pretty weird questions, and mostly we sort of ignore it. It does get us talking, however, with differing views of where we are and how we got there. Jim (in his 70s), a lovely man, "doesn't even know if he's a Christian any more." This is after years of "outreach" and he currently is very involved with many church activities and volunteers at the local homeless centre, run by a local Christian charity. His wife, Anne, (with an E) is currently a lay Reader, which is a sort of church official a little bit lower than an ordained minister - she's undergone a lot of study to achieve this status. So she takes Christianity very seriously and is into Christian meditation, stillness, and Benedictine study (whatever that might comprise). Derek, 70s, is a born-into-the-church Anglican Christian and profoundly Trinitarian. Alex, (30s?) is a Russian from an Orthodox background. Lorna (30s) had been raised as a Catholic. Emma, early 20s, is very quiet and looks a bit bewildered at times. Rebecca, 50s, a nurse, comes out with interesting ideas. Ann (no E), late 30s, is a lesbian (and, in our now-defunct Sunday evening service, occasionally put the prayers together and they were always awesome, tender, and thoughtful). I'm not really sure what the background is, of the 3 or 4 others in the group. And then there's me: profoundly non-Trinitarian. Ex-cultie. So you can see there's scope for a lot of new ideas. Every session, someone different leads, based on the Wright book, and researches the bits that appeal to them. But everyone else chips in with their ideas. I find it interesting that Jim (doesn't even know if he's a Christian any more) is himself of interest and why he thinks that is kindly explored; whereas when I disclosed I'm non-Trini, that provoked some more aggressive discussion. Or perhaps that's my hyper-sensitivity? No, the rest definitely think I'm strange. What does this add to this thread? I dunno. But I do enjoy the open discussion in this group, feel free to change or develop my views, and definitely don't feel I have to pander to any "party line." I simply don't care what they think of me. They have no power to condemn or guilt me into saying or doing anything.

Aye aye, Chockfull.

There is some interesting material in this thread that doesn't relate at all to the topic title, all the stuff about administrations etc. Would be great if that could be split off so that that interesting trail of thought(s) doesn't get lost. There's a lot of other material on the thread title outside of the "admins" stuff that bears consideration on its own merits. Mods???

Great song to start the day with.

Skyrider, at least give a semi-respectable reference - not The Sun, a comic book if ever there was! A newspaper for people who haven't learned to read yet. So therefore they don't know the difference between BUBONIC plague and PNEUMONIC plague, which this rag appears to use interchangeably. That being said, what they describe appears to be a pretty bizarre ritual. If true. Imagine... doing a sort of conga round the Fountain of Living Waters, passing a corpse around. Actually, it's a wonder that at the time, the corpse wasn't embalmed and put on display, like Lenin's, and then it could be brought out at every anniversary event. Reckon anyone would notice that it really wasn't alive?

I thought Claudettee had left years ago. Obviously not. I'm glad these people had a good time at the concert. However, I'm not tempted to check out the next one. I remember I thought some of the concerts were good, too, in my Waydaze... well, inspirational, in a cultish way. I'd have a different opinion nowadays.

T-Bone, do start a thread: "The Word of God is the Will of God??" You could kickstart it with an extract from your above post. The very expression gives me the creeps these days.

Very eloquent post, T-Bone.

Hmmmm... food for thought. TWI as a dystopian society. Yep. Having just watched and re-read The Handmaid's Tale [Margaret Atwood], set in a dystopian semi-future semi-now period, I can relate to that view. Scary in its insidiousness, the push from normal society and boundaries to a very weird society, with manufactured crises as excuses for pushing ever more. Not that TWI is the only cult that does that; they all do, by their nature. At least most of us escaped alive.

"BellaDonna" - heh heh, funny, DWBH.

Hmm. Going from Van Wert to New Knoxville is about an hour. They delivered the first load at 1.30pm. Presumably unloaded the van and took some of the heavier stuff to locations such as sitting rooms, bedrooms, etc. Had a break for a meal, no doubt, then set off and loaded some more stuff. An hour to travel to VW, then load up and drive back (another hour), to arrive at 10.30pm. Allowing for travel time, that leaves 7 hrs to unload, eat/rest, and repack in VW. I have shifted a lot of stuff in my time: my own and other people's stuff. A 3-bed house-load, van packed with stuff, can be unloaded by only two people in an hour; a little longer to load up. Less time, of course, with more people - which the implication is, in the excerpt. So: how much stuff had they got? What happened to "travel light"? (Or maybe, "travel light" came about because of the huge amount of junk they'd accumulated that they didn't need? ) Or maybe, even more -ishly ... ... were the men were busy keeping out of the way of the fellowship? Heck, perhaps even then they realised how boring "fellowship" had become. (I'd better go and play with my cats before I have any more naughty ideas, LOL)

Yeah, I wondered that too, T-Bone. I wondered if it were a contribution towards the expenses of some of the overseas students from Africa. When I was in rez, I seem to recall that a couple of them (from poor parts of Africa) got "scholarships" - ie, they didn't have to contribute the amount required from in-rez Corps every semester. Just a waiver of fees - don't know if their airfares, etc, were also paid or contributed to. And I do know that some money had been sent to help in Zaire. How much and how often I have no idea. But in any event, we're talking late 90s/early 00s - not right at the start of the ministry.

People here might be interested in the following, from the local church newsletter this week: The October SPCK [Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge] Book of the Month: "Reformation Myths" by Rodney Stark. 31 October 2017 marks 500 years since Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg Castle church. Reformation Myths: Five centuries of misconceptions and (some) misfortunes is an entertaining and enlightening exposé of over-inflated claims about the Reformation and what it has done for us. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reformation-Myths-Centuries-Misconceptions-Misfortunes/dp/0281078270/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1508543962&sr=1-1&keywords=reformation+myths I haven't read it yet but it might be a good read.

@T-Bone - "sticks" are "twigs" that are no longer connected to the root. They are twigs where the leadership has left HQ. No life in a stick. No nourishment from the root. Just dry. So, where a whole bunch of people had left because they followed their region leader when he left/was kicked out, then those twigs became sticks. If those R&R people had been running "twigs" or fellowships, those fellowships would automatically be designated "sticks" when their leader was M&A'd. Perhaps this is an expression from after your time. LCM used it a lot and was always jibing at "sticks."

You rub two "sticks" together.

Only slightly ... WW's post led me to take a peek at their website, not a place I visit very often. And their theme for the coming year? "For the 2017-2018 ministry year, as we celebrate seventy-five years of Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship, our focus will be The Word of God Is the Will of God." How very original.

Doncha love the "benefits of the class" - Learn how to: Get true peace in your life Know with certainty that you are going to heaven Develop a knowledge of the absolute goodness of God Know what happens when people die Enjoy reading the Bible Strengthen family relationships How to win in this life Hmm. If Jesus [who's he?] is a role model for "winning" "in this life" - the prize of crucifixion isn't one that would attract many people. Whoever said we would win in this life? Chapter and verse please! As to "Know with certainty that you are going to heaven" and "Know what happens when people die" - I know what the Bible says and what I understand and believe; but these "benefits" are still speculative. People don't come back from heaven (wherever or whatever that is) or after they've died, to tell us. We have a glorious future ahead of us - but we don't really know what it is going to be like. It will be different from this life, however, and beyond our wildest imaginings. I would say that all of the other things mentioned happen OUTSIDE TWI - and further, that any peace you have in your life now, or understanding of the goodness of God, or enjoyment in reading the Bible, and decent family relationships, will ALL BE SHATTERED BY TWI. And whoever put this poster together doesn't understand that they don't need to repeat the "how to" in the final benefit. They forgot to mention the charge, sorry donation, required for this "class series," too. Don't think I'll be in a hurry to sign up for this. (Runs away very fast.)

That's the important thing about looking back. What happened? Why? How can (I) prevent this happening (to me) again? We will always come up against "red flags." Some we have to view with caution: proceed forward warily. Others definitely mean DO NOT PROCEED. Which is which? And how do we proceed? What do we do to stop getting into similar dangerous situations? How do we respond to red flags, now? At work? When we see something happening in our neighbourhood? In many cases, our friends and families warned us - and we didn't listen. How do we warn our own friends and families of dangerous situations that they might be wandering into? It doesn't mean being suspicious of everyone and everything. It does mean being vigilant (roaring lions bearing red flags are everywhere!). And it definitely means SPEAKING UP and "whistleblowing." Which is not easy when one is in a position of subservience to someone with power or authority, however it comes, over one's life.

You could have a point there, Spec.

Grace, a lot of the content of those Birth to Corps papers was used to manipulate the Corps one way or another, and to ascerrtain and exploit vulnerable young women. If someone disclosed an abusive (esp sexually) background - hey presto, VPW knew which buttons to press. No doubt others also used these papers this way, if they'd been granted access. But note these papers were written in the second in-rez year, that is, after some years of mental pressure to conform whilst in rez etc. Papers from beaten down people. Remind me of the fake confessions so vaunted in courts with inadequate judicial systems. Victims are so desperate that they'll sign or agree to anything. There's a whole thread on B to C papers somewhere. To bring this back to topic a little, I'm sure that if any B to C paper had been written in the style of VPW's letters, it wouldn't have been acceptable. His style of alternately expressing disappointment and then haranguing his readers isn't communicative so much as yet a further assault on people's sense of self.

Did you mean "tactical" ?

Wow, Birth to Corps papers. What if someone wrote that they'd been born into a Christian household, with loving caring parents, normal sibling relationships, average schooling (not too bright, not thick either), played some kind of team sport but only at inter-school level, got a job (or jobs) - okay but not stellar. Went to Sunday school and church, but didn't find it particularly enthralling. Interested in knowing and understanding a bit more. Perhaps you could add in sorrow at a grandparent dying, failed driving test at first attempt but did well second time around. An uneventful life, a well-behaved kid. In other words, not much "ammunition." I wonder what VPW would make of that? Would he send it back, saying Give us the bad stuff you did? Would someone want to embroider their past with indiscretions, make themselves seem naughtier than they were?

What you don't see is, firstly, any genuine love for God, or for Jesus Christ; and secondly, any genuine concern for God's people. No kindness, compassion, consideration. No honest concern for the Way Corps. No concern whatsoever for the "mission field" other than getting bums on seats. (Well not bums, they wouldn't be allowed, but bottoms on seats.) Just whiny moaning and "poor-little-me-ishness", and complaints about abandoning the ministry. Shows how degraded the WC of that time had become, to accept this as "normal." (Can't speak for myself as WC then, as I didn't come along till after the Great Man was dead - we had other terrors (or terrorists) to contend with.)

Banging my head on a stone wall here. I was attempting to respond to you, rrobs, unlike others here who have jumped on you. My headache from banged head, and I, are now going away for the weekend. Have fun not responding to others.