Twinky

That looks like an interesting site, Rocky. Mike provides a huge amount of amusement. He's clearly passionate about what he thinks and believes. But as we have been taught, "sincerity is no guarantee for truth." I wish he spent as much time on genuine Bible research and study.

You're making an assumption that VPW knew anything of church history. If there were any such classes in the seminary he went to, he must have snoozed through them. Very good point, although many early Christians weren't of Jewish background but converted from other religions/idols. A point that still stands today; there are many countries where Christians are persecuted (especially in Arab countries). Yet still people CHOOSE to convert, knowing that the penalties for doing so are huge. Such people know that there is something better, bigger, more powerful. They don't learn that from the TWI example of meanness and shouting. They learn from something they SEE (experience and power) in other Christians, as well as something they HEAR from them.

This topic is rather amazing in the way it swirls around. It reminds me of Tom Sharpe's Wilt novels. And Blott on the Landscape. And Porterhouse Blue. Other works. Basically, the author takes a "normal," if sometimes a little strange, situation, and keeps giving a bit of a tweak, some decision by the proponent that seems rational in the circumstances, that triggers something else, then another nearly rational decision - until suddenly you realise that you are in a totally bizarre scenario that is a million miles from where you started. Little in novels, etc, makes me laugh out loud. Snigger and snort a bit, but laugh out loud with tears running down my face? Wilt had me getting a complaint from the person sleeping upstairs ("You're laughing too loudly, be quiet!") (T-Bone, I think you'd enjoy these. Bit old but still funny.) And that's what seems to be happening on this thread.

Would that be the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Don't forget that "When you eat of it you will surely die.”

Happy new year, people. God bless and guide you in this coming year into peacefulness of heart and joy in His presence.

If St Vic were alive, he'd probably be in prison.

"The Word" - just what is that? Not so often encountered as an expression outside TWI, but when someone comes out with that, I think, or maybe ask: "What do you mean by that?" Does the person mean Jesus, or the Bible, or something/someone else? One could have some fun with that. If someone's "doing the Word" are they doing (as in doing over, hurting, beating up) Jesus? Kicking their Bible round the room? If someone's "off the word," were they balancing on a thick book and fell off, like falling off a kerb at the edge of the road? Or would they be off the word as in off their food if they were ill? Anyway, I don't care. Just say what you mean, if you're near me.

Hello Akhurno! Y'already got a coffee, so draw up a chair and veg out for a while, till you feel comfortable with the clientele. Some people bring their soap boxes, and others just throw buns at those standing on the soap boxes. If anyone calls you a liar, consider squishing them with a cream cake.

"proven ministry research" hahahahahahahahahahahaha

"You're not meek enough!" (ie thinking for oneself in any situation, or daring to proffer an alternative suggestion to some leadership) "You're leaning to your five senses" (ditto) and this one, the elephant in the room: "the Corps" Went to a carol concert with my Mum some 10 or 12 years after being M&A'd. Thought I was over the hurt of it all and the jargon - till the leader said, "And the Corps will now sing..." My hair, which is of considerable length, stood on end, and I felt my body grow rigid. That was one scary moment.

Following Mike's argument, if Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles, and all the others received God's special revelation and VPW was just a compiler, even so, VPW should have credited the other people as having also received revelation and not pretending that he was the one who received the special revelation to "put it all together" in the special PFAL way. Lemme think: in the OT there were lots of prophets who received partial revelation. Later, other prophets quoted the earlier ones, and gave credit for it. Sometimes, it was "as it says in the law of Moses," which was so well known that chapter and verse (or the equivalent) simply didn't need to be cited. Even Jesus quotes the OT and gives credit. If Jesus feels the need to give credit... what does that say for VPW and his refusal to give credit?

There's just no arguing or reasoning with someone who's totally convinced he's right. Available in other translations here: http://biblehub.com/proverbs/26-4.htm Available in other translations here: https://www.biblestudytools.com/proverbs/13-20-compare.html

Thanks, Modgellan.

Dropping a few names is not a citation or even an acknowledgement of the named people's input. It's simply a even dropping. And any real PhD should know how to include citations. I had to include proper references when I did my paper for my Honours degree (and that was some serious ground breaking work and study, and which my department wanted me to publish an abridged version in a leading professional journal). Heck, you know what? When I did my research paper in rez, my first draft got sent back. I had only cited bible verses, maybe a bit fromantic Bullinger's works or some such. Not enough PFAL or collateral material quoted. How terrible ! Thing is, it was totally original work, have never seen anything like it before or since, and it didn't rely on any TWI material. I had to go back through the paper to add in pseudo references. So (1) TWI knows what citations, or references, are; and (2) they really don't care about research, only about how much parroting can be got into RPs. So don't be telling me that mentioning xyz or ABC by name in some random, obscure little talk is *anything* like citing their work. Unless maybe you were "citing" Donald Duck.

What the heck is Mike's great long post/transcript at the bottom of page 10 about? I have better things to do with my time than read all that, got through a few paragraphs. Anyone care to summarize? Nah, don't bother. I think maybe picking one's nose would be a better way to spend the time. Time for another glass of Merlot, methinks.

Only "mostly," Rocky?

Welcome, Taxidev. Think you already have a coffee. Nice to chat with you. It's going to be interesting to hear what a current innie has to say. Don't let aggressive comments from some here put you off. And, Taxidev, good that you find you can also learn from the R&R lot, but don't let that stop you from exploring what others have to say. There are good (and not so good) teachings and sermons in churches and on the net. If you listen to those outside of TWI kinda of thinking, your hackles will rise and your mind will start "correcting " what you hear. But stick with it, and you may gain some different perspectives. Take nothing and no one as being completely 100% accurate. They're all doing their best with what they know now (unless they are knowing scammers). They, like you, are free to reassess.

PFAL, yes, but isn't one of the collaterals also orange?

An no, I'm not trying to launch off into Doctrinal.

Just a bit off topic... The Orange Book. Which one is that? Wouldn't Jesus be carrying The New Dynamic Church, which from distant memory is a green covered book? Or has he no need for a dynamic church on his return, or have we all been gathered together by then?

The question: The answer: Mike! The hidden question: The answer: DWBH and Skyrider! (with assistance from Cafe friends)

And so, yet again, another thread has turned its focus onto Mike.

You see, Mike, for most of the people who post here, any "good" that came out of PFAL is greatly overshadowed by the VERY GREAT HARM that was done by PFAL. Both in its words and in its practice.

Mike, there were many who took PFAL and walked away during it- that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good." Some others stuck around for a few months, and then were distracted by other events - that shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good." Some others stuck around for a couple of years, maybe going to twigs, and a few festivals like RoA and then stopped fellowshipping. Perhaps they moved away, or their twi leader moved away - that such people never continued shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good." And then, notching it up a bit... Some went in rez or on staff. Some left during their rez time or staff time. They usually left in bad circumstances, and they were badmouthed after their departure. That shows what the leavers thought of PFAL. Yet more were graduated corps or long-term staffers. And they too are no longer fellowshipping with TWI. TThat shows what they thought of PFAL's "great good." And there remain a few, a very few, who continue to fellowship with TWI. Compared with the numbers that have taken PFAL over the decades, that shows exactly how many people "admit to the GREAT good that came out of PFAL." As a percentage of all PFAL grads, it wouldn't be high. Where and who are these grads you are talking about? How many, within a few dozen, are you talking about? If PFAL did "great good" for them, why are they no longer fellowshipping with TWI? Why aren't you?

At this time of year, comfort food means MINCE PIES!