Twinky

That wouldn't have been Claw-dettee Royal, would it?

I do not see that this says, Love a book (not even a bible) - not love PFAL. I do see that it requires some practical application, otherwise, how else will you love your neighbour? By reading the house number on the letter box? How do you love yourself? Is it by reading your diary? Or is it by being kind to yourself, and trying to understand your own strengths, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and physical needs. Do you seek warm clothes and a roof over your head, in bad weather? Help someone less fortunate. Do you enjoy sufficient food every week? Help someone who has less. Do you get help or companionship at your "low times"? Come alongside someone who needs that help or companionship. Put the book down, Mike, and leave the internet alone. Take a couple of months off and spend that time engaging in a meaningful way with the people around you.

Mike: you are now claiming to "like learning." And for some obscure reason you think proofs are not possible in the (shall we call it?) metaphysical area. This thread is basically for YOU to show how YOU are learning - in precisely that metaphysical area of life - your understanding and empathy of PEOPLE. How YOU understand now about the hurt that has been caused. I am STILL WAITING for you to share any genuine expression of empathy, understanding, care, concern, for the people whose lives have been so very damaged. and for the ongoing hurt and damage, that lingers now, perhaps decades after their involvement with TWI has ceased. Perhaps if you actually "put yourself in the shoes of" some of the victims, you'd begin to understand and begin to get some of the "proofs" that you seek. If you can't empathise with the hurt coming through in the written stories here from the victims, then perhaps you could get alongside some victims in real life. Get out and help at a homeless centre; work with victims of abuse; work with people with barely enough money to live on and who have severe debt problems; there are many ways to get involved with real people. Talk with people, and find out what has happened in their lives. I warn you, it takes time to work with damaged or vulnerable people and receive sufficient trust so that they will let you in and share the whys and wherefores of their current situation, and it'll be a painful journey for you.

Good, concise, example of something very complex, Rocky (or trivial, Mike). Mike, could you have a go at presenting your "thesis" in such concise terminology? It's only about half a dozen lines. Shouldn't be too difficult for such a knowledgeable Professor of PFAL such as yourself.

There are good reasons to evade, if you fear capture and interrogation. If you are dealing with an enemy. If you believe you are dealing with such here, you have only yourself to blame. No-one sees you as an enemy - a fool, misguided, in your own little world, maybe - but enemy? no. So you see your "thesis" as a campaign, do you? Hmph. A politician on a re-election campaign doesn't make progress by evasion; rather, he annoys the electorate so much that he isn't likely to be re-elected. If you think there is something in your personal life that you'd like to share (with me) you can PM me. Do not require me to PM you. Generally speaking, I will say what I have to say openly. I disclosed some very personal information to you in an effort to show you that it can be done. Your response? Ignored me completely. Others' response? No comment, as it wasn't directed at them. I also showed you some ways my beliefs and doctrines impact my own life (again to encourage you). But you? You appear too unwilling to demonstrate "the application of doctrine to my personal life" - I asked you for ONE THING that had benefited you. And you cannot even demonstrate that. As for your comment, "If you ever conduct a campaign trying to transmit a large body of complex data" can I remind you that as a lawyer I am used to both assimilating a lot of complex data on specialist matters, and asking relevant questions to clarify what I don't understand; Thereafter, I'm extremely capable of presenting that to non-tech person(s). In fact, as a lawyer I considered myself a sort of interpreter for lay clients when it comes to understanding complex legal matters. Clients like my clear and cogent explanations. And they like the way I show them precisely how that applies in their own lives, cases, matters. Now it's your turn to explain why you cannot explain even a simple matter, simply, and show how it works in practice.

My intent with that post was precisely as stated, and as Rocky understands. To bring this thread back to its stated purpose. To reset, a little, this thread. Which once again you have purposely misunderstood, or deliberately taken off topic. Can't you see that the post actually expects the thread to continue for many more pages? Quite the opposite of being locked! Sounds to me like you were looking for a fight. Whatever was said to you then, you probably gave the same sort of evasive answers that you give here. Can't you see that if you offer straight answers to straight questions, you would have far more respect? There are many ways to disagree, but if you duck and dive, you can hardly blame others for hunting you out to try to find out what you really think. I have asked you many straight questions to try to help you. But getting a straight answer is like trying to catch smoke.

Mike, I hate to tell you this when you are clearly so "right," but Jesus isn't described as being "the second Adam" but "the last Adam." There's actually quite a difference in meaning and intent. If you happen to have a Bible, you can read about it in 1 Cor 15:45. No idea (and don't care) how it might be described in PFAL.

Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI. And nothing of any personal growth by Mike. Knock it off, folks. Let Mike slink back into the woodwork, as he (says he) wishes to do. He might then find time to ponder just a little on what he's too busy defending himself against. But I'm guessing that this thread will meander on for another dozen pages, with Mike continuing to offer provocative comments and not empathetic ones.

It really was "giving to get" - not giving out of a thankful heart because of the bounty of God's provision for each one of us - giving just for the pleasure of giving and helping others. Right now, I would very much like to give - to get! Give away half the contents of my home, so that I can get some space!! Where has all this stuff come from? There really is no room enough to receive all that's in the house. Charity shop, here I come. (Wine collection excluded.)

Oh, but Rocky, surely you understand that the general membership (aka peons) give (physically) in this world, and the same receive spiritually. Only "spiritually." All that ABS goes to helping people in need. You know, like the trustees and higher-ups who have devoted their lives to service of said peons, those who've given up jobs that they could have held at Fortune 500 companies, and such like.

This wouldn't be your open (or closed, by your own admission) mind, would it?

In jest, this post, I trust. You think there is no "caste" in the USA? Every country has its elites, its upper crust, its great and not-necessarily-so-good. And then there are the corporations - that are so big and powerful that they can thwart legitimate governments. Now that's high caste!

Mike, you ****, I told you I'm a lawyer because I don't want you to think you're dealing with a preschooler or person of no ability or English as a second language person whose words can be misunderstood. I missed nothing of your posts (unlike you missing practically everything of everyone else's). I learned to read early in life, and have learned to read what people say, very carefully. I bring my thinking and exploratory skills to the way I consider the Bible, and very definitely when considering how people handle scriptures or proclaim "the Word." That's not limited to you; I pay attention to what people say in church and in other articles I read. It's called "critical thinking." Critical doesn't mean "doing down" or "picking holes in"; it means, exercising judgment. Testing out. Which God requires us to do: "Test all things, hold fast to what is good." Verses posted earlier. However, you have misunderstood (wilfully) and use that information, self-disclosure, to say that everything I ask you is a lawyer's challenge. IT'S NOT, it's a believer's challenge and, believe it or not, done in a spirit and with a heart that invites you to think and to consider what is said. You accuse anyone who challenges you of "not seeing your heart." Perhaps you should try to see someone else's heart. Oh, delete that. Try seeing someone else. Full stop. See other people, as people striving to do their best. I haven't stormed off. Your passive-aggressiveness drives people away. (And if you look, you'll see I didn't get to put you on ignore, and have posted a few things since I said I'd put you on Ignore.) Try this. Exercise your reasoning ability that God gave you (that VPW tried to take away) and you may learn a few things. Meantime, I prefer to spend time (real time) with people who genuinely want to know God, serve Him, and explore his word and their own understanding, and who want to GROW in that understanding. Announcement: some of those people post in this very forum! Iron sharpens iron; dialoguing with people who seek a real understanding of God helps both/all. But banging one's head against a brick wall brings a headache. If one banged a sword against a wall (instead of rubbing along a sharpening iron), the result would be a dull blade. So, repeat: I prefer to spend time with people who genuinely want to know God. (This is written in very short paragraphs to make it easy for you so that you don't miss any points: you often say you've missed something or can't find time to read whole posts.)

At a time when I was thinking, I ought to give the Bible another go, try and read it - I read Acts, and thought it such a fantastic book and really wondered why I didn't see any of that passion and commitment among the people I'd known hitherto. Then, I met a WoW. He was passionate, committed, the WoW family leader of 3 or 4 others, knew a lot, showed me a lot of Bible and explained it. I got to go to branch meetings where there were a lot of other believers, all outgoing and friendly, vibrant and very passionate about God. I met Corps and interim Corps, and they really seemed to glow. These people all believed that the power displayed in Acts was available now and seemed to know God at a very personal level. I saw some amazing answers to prayers. It wasn't "stand-up-sit-down-at-the-right-time" like the boring church I'd been raised in. However, I wasn't sold on everyone's refrain, "Have you taken the class yet?" and was rather put off by that. It was many months before I dipped my toe into that water. But meeting this WoW seemed like an answer to prayer - at the time. This was mid 80s, and not in the US. There was no E-Corps formed yet, no Gartmore, so any WC around must have trained in the US. Maybe things were different from what was going on in the US.

Think I have to disagree a little with you on that, Waysider. The orange book and the white book not completely filled with inaccuracies, in fact some of the information in them is good and solid. That's because they were poached from people who understood. But throughout, the real words of truth have been so meddled with, smeared and tarnished by the thief who stole them (ie, VPW) yet who didn't understand what he'd stolen, that it's difficult to untangle truth from error - despite the purported aim of the "class." The orange book and the white book and the other PFAL books are inconsistent with each other (esp the collaterals) - in fact, the collaterals are poorly written folksy stories with no real meat. For myself, knowing what I know now, if I can't trust the man, how can I trust his words? He didn't trust the words himself !!! The only way to work out the truth from error is to ascertain what the Bible really says. If it doesn't say so, anything in PFAL is suspect. Growth occurs when one is able to look at what PFAL might purport to state, and REJECT the false premises, the lies, the contradictions against scripture. And this, Mike cannot do because, in his opinion, the Bible is merely "background." Rejection of the false and holding fast to what is good flourishes best in a heart that rejoices and is thankful to God, see earlier in the same chapter. Anyone who cares to look can see that there has been a lot of growth in the lives of many of the posters here. We have rejected the lies, we have looked for ourselves, and most do our best to align our hearts with God's heart. And that growth allows, nay demands, reaching out to help others.

Hasn't answered this, either. He just said, I'd "got his heart wrong." Blah blah blah. Poor little Mike.

He still hasn't bloody well answered this. Fudged something, yes, but answered? NO. And he never will substantively answer. But maybe it would be different if the hypothetical women were molested, or raped, by an actual king? Rather than by an alleged minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Think you mean "WordWolf," RottieGrrrl. CityGirl, belief in trinity (or not) isn't required for salvation. Don't hang your hat on it either way. I take the view that neither God, the creator of the Universe and all that is in it, and his Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord, have had 2000 years to do something about it if it were essential to their program of redemption. As neither has done anything, assume it's irrelevant, or of far less relevance than TWI made it out to be. Learn to enjoy what other Christians understand, and why they understand it. You'll find the message of Love, Grace, Forgiveness and helping others is far more important. As to lying - I always told the truth to the best of my knowledge and ability. With hindsight, one's view of the truth changes. Once, I'd've invited people to a wonderful Christian fellowship (and in the early stages, I believe that's what they were). Now, I'm sorry for any part I played in getting anyone to stay around longterm in a destructive cult. (There were enough short-term; those folk were obviously wiser than me and left quickly.) The Bible says in many places and many ways that we should not lie, and demonstrates consequences of lying. Therefore, it honors God not to lie. Those who lie - honor someone else.

Folks, I'm done with the evasion that Mike displays. I have offered him lots of space to communicate what he thinks, and asked some easy questions of him. He can't or won't answer. If he ever does, someone please tell me by PM. Meantime, I'm putting him on Ignore. When I want to bang my head against a wall, I'll do that in my own home. Over and out.

I'm done with you, Mike. I've learned to appreciate the frankness of Americans. Generally, I've found they speak as they think (Brits can go round the houses a bit). But I've never meet anyone as evasive as you are. Usually, even a lying person comes clean eventually. But you... do you know what "clean" is?

As usual, no straight answer. How hard is that, Mike? Hey, if you said something EXPLICITLY in a previous post that you think I missed, do quote it. I've asked you several discrete but pointed questions in the last few minutes. And your sole response is, "you're not on trial." No. You're just passive, and don't speak out. You're wilfully closing your eyes, closing your heart, to the hurt others have suffered.

And the "women I speak of" - now. If you learned now that any of the women I suggested had been abused historically, how would you feel now? Accept that as someone else's "right", or be outraged now? If such women were being abused now, today, would you feel differently?

So let's hear it from you, in your own words. Sexual abuse of women is wrong. Sexual abuse of women by purported ministers is wrong. Is abusive. Choose your own words, don't have to be many. You say it. You SAY it, Mike.

That looks like a good blog, Rocky.

And despite your new-found empathy, you still don't bat an eyelid. You simply don't seem to care at all about the women who were abused by your hero VPW but merely appear to accept that abuse as a "fact of life" in some way. Does it not anger you? Would it anger you if your wife, your daughter, your granddaughter, your niece or female cousin, or colleague, or other females of your close acquaintance, were treated like this? By a supposed church minister? How would you feel if these females had been abused by the local RC "father," perhaps the minister who was in charge of your local RC church? Would you think the RC minister had some sort of "right" to sexually abuse women in his congregation? As an aside, you at last appear to be accepting TWI as being a "power based human organization" - well, it certainly wasn't a Godly organization.