Twinky

VPW wanted us to think he'd figured it out on his own. All of it. He may have "collated" it but he didn't give credit to the authors, and he didn't even bother to check if they were saying the same thing, ie, if they were consistent with each other. Because there are differences, in the PFAL material, which strike one when carefully read. However, for one unschooled in the scriptures, it seems that this is an error of their own understanding - not an error in the presentation or content. My opinion is that he took the material, presented it as his own thinking that nobody would find out, or wouldn't care if they did find out, and probably everything snowballed - got bigger than he expected. And TWI having got a bit bigger, he enjoyed the apparent power of it and his ego was fed. By making a video class, and by copyrighting the stolen material, he probably thought he was "getting one over" the actual authors and his assertion of ownership would supercede theirs, if there ever were any court cases. Then, he went on a real power-hunt; and because by that time, nobody had challenged him about the earlier plagiarism, the theft of others' works - he thought he could ride roughshod over everyone and everything. So he hijacked the fruits of others' work - hijacked Doop's and Heefner's followers - built his empire. But his empire was founded on theft and love of money, not on love of God. And so it will fail. Those that sit hoarding the money pot hoard evil to themselves. They might do well to remember that when the Israelite slaves were freed, they plundered Egypt of its ill-gotten gains. And take a look at Isaiah 23:15-18: Ugh, I wish the "quote" thing worked properly - last para in the quote above is of course my own view, not any Bible verse

So where do you draw the line? Does the work of the late Stephen Hawking, for example, in showing us more of the universe (and of God's magnificent handiwork) fall into this category? No. He had great thoughts, which themselves are not patentable or copyright. BUT the books in which he expressed his ideas - they're copyright. He used ideas from Einstein. Many people have built on the ideas propounded by Einstein. Did you know that in accordance with Albert Einstein's Last Will and Testament of 1950, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem holds the copyright to all of his writings? And Einstein used the ideas of other people, dating back millennia. So who's to say that these amazing men didn't get their knowledge by revelation from God? Did God give it to them directly? Or did they get it by studying God's amazing handiwork? The word is written in the stars, don't forget. Are all who study the stars studying the "Word"? Should Hawking and Einstein not have any copyrights to their discoveries (whether they found them by their own intellectual knowledge, or whether they were told in some way by God)? Do you think, Mike, that they plagiarised each other, these astronomers through centuries? They certainly built on the bodies of knowledge of different aspects of physics, chemistry, biology, atomics. Should none of the ideas ever have been written down for others to benefit from? Should no scientific work ever be given copyright? Why, in your opinion, is it unnecessary to acknowledge the work of others? Whether that be the study of "the written Word" aka the Bible, or the "Word in the stars"? Why, in your opinion, is it unnecessary to acknowledge that God gave others "revelation" too? Surely, rather than hide that fact, it should be a cause for celebration of God's goodness? of God's willingness to teach people as much as they are ready to receive it?

It wasn't because of any 1942 promise that I got excited about understanding the Bible better. Those amazing miracles recorded in Acts got my attention. I read Acts and it was exciting! Wow, that stuff happened? That stuff is what is available? Where is it? I don't see it in the local churches. They're boring. So soon after, when I met a WoW, who knew a lot of Bible but more to the point, prayed about things and they happened, wow! that got my attention. A lot of strange and unexplainable things happened when he was around - he prayed, astonishing things happened, everything went well. I wanted to know how to get prayers answered. To be able to work miracles, to help people in that miraculous way. It was one sees, seeing the power of God in action, seeing and knowing it's real, experiencing God at work, where there are results - that's what gets attention. Ultimately, this WoW got badly hurt by C G33r, but that (at that time) didn't damage his confidence in God. So I don't know about 1942 promises. The WoW believed it, I think; it wasn't really a talking point; he believed that God would hear and answer. He believed the word taught, having rejected an idolatrous RC upbringing. It was the simple faith of young and enthusiastic believers that got through to many people, worldwide. It was results, not words or fake promises.

Bolshevik asked: What he's arguing, Bolshevik, is that the information is God's, and God can give it to whomsoever he wishes. And if someone (VPW) collates all the info (at God's direction) then that person isn't stealing or plagiarising the works, because the information didn't belong to the original writer whose publications were plagiarised. Hence, God revealed something to, say, Stiles; but the information was God's, not Stiles's; and VPW merely collated it and put it together with publications from, say, Bullinger. Throughout, the information remained and remains God's property. It doesn't explain, of course, why TWI should copyright material that, on this basis, isn't theirs to collate, since it's God's information. Copyrighting would mean that this publication of God's information becomes less available to others to whom God might reveal information , or give instructions, to collate such material with their own publications (should they so wish). PFAL material, you understand, is God's final written word about anything, and as such will not need to be added to or amended. Not now, and not ever in the future, by generations 100 years down the line (should Christ's return be delayed that long).

Mike, the reason you get "multiple posters, multiple points" is because YOU introduce them. I have no idea who or what "Dana Carvy" and "churchlady characters" are (and do not waste time by trying to enlighten me), but you have raised this as an answer to something completely different. You also bring in an irrelevant comment about nuns and puberty. That has nothing to do with the ability to write things out clearly. I suggested to you that you set out your posts in the clear and logical way that Steve set out his posts and particularly his papers (his thesis). I didn't ask if you liked him or agreed with the content; I suggested a format. Instead, you turned that comment into your opinion of the man not the content, and then you introduced yet more irrelevances, the Dana comment and the nuns/puberty thing. I know you have heard of the phrase "stayed mind." If you "stayed your mind" on what you want to say, and do not allow yourself to be sidetracked with irrelevant comments, you won't have to deal with the responses. You don't like the way So_Crates sticks with the same thing over and over again. Perhaps that's because he has "stayed mind" to pursue getting an answer to a question. He isn't sidetracking himself with irrelevances. You may think you have answered, but clearly you haven't answered adequately. Likewise, I have asked you the same question multiple times and got more irrelevances but never an answer. I have to say, I admire your fortitude in staying with your position in face of increasing shouting at you. I also have to say, I do not admire your ability to refuse to look at facts that may change your position. That is not logical. It is not Godly, either. A wise man, a scholar, a thoughtful person, will continue to gather facts, will listen to a multitude of counsellors, and will change his mind if the evidence points to another conclusion.

I don't know JM's philosophy of the Bible, of life. But I do know from the few articles by her that I've read that she doesn't subscribe to the "law of believing" stuff that TWI does. She's much more realistic. Her idea of turning Jn 10:10 upside down strikes me as being a sort of spiritual William Morris kind of thing. Wm Morris (late 1800s, leader in the "Arts and Crafts" Movement) is he that said: "Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be useful, or believe to be beautiful." Or the current interior design thinking coming from Japan: "Put your hands on everything you own, ask yourself if it brings joy, and if it doesn’t, get rid of it." So... does your spiritual life bring you joy? How do you need to de-clutter your spiritual life? What steals your joy, what kills the joy of service? Are there things or activities in your spiritual life that don't bring joy? If not, why not; if improvement is not possible, don't do those things or activities. Only each individual knows what (or who) always has that depressing effect.

Mike, just repeating this in case you missed it previously. If you set out any parts of your "thesis" in the manner of the late Steve's papers, or even just his posts, we might be able to fathom your thesis more easily AND you wouldn't get yourself in such a tangle with the ... ... that you complain so much about.

Hilarious!!!

Mike, if you look through some of Steve Lortz's old posts, you'll see how he presents his ideas, clearly, coherently, so you know what he wants to say and where he's going. He hasn't stolen his material and gives credit where it's due. There might be some things you can learn from the style of presentation - not to mention the content.

We all know John 10:10. Here's a slightly different version, from HCSB: Read something interesting today: - Joyce Meyer Here is where joy should come from: - International Standard Version, Psalm 43:4 - well worth a look at other versions I think I'm going to try thinking of things this way, for a little while, see what difference it makes. Does what I'm doing, seeing, being - enhance my joy? Or take away from it?

Was idly thinking this evening about the internet, perhaps triggered by the disclosures about Facebook. Had the internet been around when many posters here became enmeshed with TWI - they would have checked it out first. Had the net been widely available when I got enmeshed - again, I'd've checked it out first. Today's potential victims, likely mostly young people, have great opportunity to check TWI out first. Maybe they went along to a couple of fellowships with their mates, but decided to check out the organization before they got more involved. Well, well! When I was (in my ignorance) planning to crawl back to TWI, I googled them and the first site up was - GreaseSpot Cafe! And so it still may be, for random people googling TWI, depending on how they phrase their enquiry. BUT, at least with Google, there's lots of other potential or similar sites listed, both after the main site and at the bottom of the first page. TWI's own boring, very static, site appears high in the list - closely followed by a few anti-TWI sites. We who have been here for a long time know how much GSC has helped us, and most of us remain so that we can help others too. What we can't know is how many people have encountered GSC, had a quick look, and zoomed off the other way. They've never been "helped" by having to de-tox here, because they never got "toxed" in the first place. Good for them, I say!

From a note in my email this morning, posted on the Ning "Way Corps site." Regardless of what you think about the man, he's clearly in decline, and suffering, so prayers (if you pray) for him, his family, and the medical staff, would be appropriate.

Wish I could watch it, but not available in the UK.

One hopes that he is giving 20% of his il-gotten gains back to TWI.

Less Than, there are lots of archived old documents elsewhere on this site - unfortunately not as easily accessible as they used to be when the site was hosted differently. However, you might find this thread really helpful and very enlightening: And Grace, I'm not sure if you've looked at this old threads etc yet. You'd find them interesting too.

Chockfull, neither you nor any of us will be "fixed" until Christ returns and fixes us. Meantime, we just keep doing our best and look to him to cover the rest. I'm very thankful for the love and patience shown to us specifically whilst we're recovering from Waydaze. The kindness shown by some people is more healing than they could ever know.

Welcome, Less Than. Praise the Lord you are less than TWI would turn you into, and More Than anything they could offer. Making you feel "less than" and not good enough is standard TWI technique, and it leaves big scars and holes in one's self-respect. You will find others here who were kids raised in TWI - I think you as a group have your own particular issues to exorcise. Actually, what Rocky posted just yesterday, a TED talk, could be really helpful for you. The speaker is a young woman who was raised in an abusive cult. Meantime, this is a great place for you to vent your anger, frustrations, and hang-ups. We've all been there. It's also very much okay for you to seek help from a therapist. If you had a broken leg, you'd seek help from a doctor, wouldn't you? Right. So seek help for your broken thinking. Say how you felt unsupported when your father died. Let it meander on from there. Maybe your therapist will be able to offer some strategies to help you "deal with" the anticipated conflict with your mum.

Good talk, lots of quotable lines. "Grow up and realise you can leave," being just one of many.

I think that's about the size of it, Socks. It's just business - to defame others, to blame them for everything that you don't like (on a whim or for some other reason). It isn't love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, or even bearing another's burden. One might wonder how these R&R signatories are faring in the real world without compelled followers or anyone who gives a shred of credence to what they're peddling; wonder if they have any regrets about how they oppressed those over whom they exercised "spiritual oversight," and how they castigated them when their "believing" seemingly failed to meet required standards; wonder if they're finding their leadership styles don't engender suitable awe in the secular workplace. But nobody should wonder too much!! Life's too short!!

Gosh, Spec. That's a long read. Haven't looked at it yet (it's midnight). Saved for another day's reading.

Heh, Spec, it was the "research" as much as anything that excited me, too. In fact, pre-PFAL, I asked if the Dead Sea Scrolls would have any impact on the research, and whether there was any Way material that could be studied. Initially I was met with blank or sideways looks, and later, "You can ask that question, take PFAL first, you can write to HQ." Of course, that never happened. I also asked if they were proposing to put out their own Bible, based on their research, and was told that as it was a research ministry, it would be better not to, because research was discovering new things all the time and TWI would have to keep amending any Bible version they produced. It sounded exciting, like there was a big bunch of people really digging around for new light. ...Now, I'm minded to think that they had nothing but VPW's expanded literals according to usage, or whatever pompous name they were called, which would be laughable anywhere outside TWI - those "literals according to usage" that weren't directly pinched from the Amplified Version or similar.

As a matter of fact, it appears that Teresa of Avila wrote this not about God but about Christ. I found this online, from "A Catholic Prayer Book" found on catholicity.com - ((Gosh I wish this site wouldn't mess the quotes about, or am I doing something wrong? Anyway the last bit following, with the link to Annie Flint's poem, shouldn't be part of the quote, but an extra paragraph.)) Prayer of Saint Teresa of Avila (1515-1582)

WTH, Chockfull?!?!

Hi you too, T-Bone!