Twinky

Thanks, Rocky. And the flip side of what I said earlier is exactly what T-Bone said a couple of posts later. As unwitting and unwilling participants in furthering the division of the Body, by promoting VPW's doctrine of division, I think it befits us escapees to do what we can now to repair the damage and to pay particular attention to knitting that Body back together - as Eph 4:15-16 continues: :15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head - Christ. :16 From Him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, I'm thinking that might mean every Christian, together with apostles, prophets, etc and bishops and deacons as appointed by Him (not necessarily by some church hierarchy) (and certainly not appointed by themselves) promotes the growth of the body for building itself in love Growth! Building together! I'm taking that as individual growth - and the growth in numbers of those participating in the Body (ie, outreach) by the proper working of each individual part. Again, I'm thinking that must mean every Christian, fully functioning and moving to maturity. When you think about it, the policy of "mark and avoid" is only mentioned in passing - what, once? twice? - in the NT. How many more times are there references to working together, likemindedness in furthering the gospel, being knit together, unity of the spirit, and such like, together with descriptions of, and named people who are modelling, just that behaviour? I utterly reject any kind of division as promoted by Weirwille or any other so-called Christian leader.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people His = Christ's people for works of service, Not works of servitude so that the body of Christ may be built up The Body of Christ - not the coffers of any organisation (TWI or other) until we all reach unity in the faith That is, we're all unified in looking towards and trusting him, the Head, the Lord, Christ - which is not the same as lockstep likemindedness and in the knowledge of the Son of God Knowledge of the Son, the One, the Redeemer, the Ultimate Teacher and become mature, Yet remaining childlike in our wonder and love for Christ attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Which fullness can only be understood by knowing, valuing and appreciating how he works in other and all parts of "his body" - that is, within the fullness of the Christian church Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. I have to say that I met some awesome people in TWI (mostly at lower levels) and some significantly awesome people who are real movers and shakers in the gentlest and kindest way at helping others, patient, serving the poor and disadvantaged, "coming alongside," generous in heart and time and with money, teaching by example, and modelling a life that is authentic and truly mirrors the love of Christ for everyone. They are from many different walks of life, and they are often very different from each other in personality - except for an indefinable warmth and "drawing" effect. I'd say, these are people equipped for service, mature, and reaching to the fullness of Christ.

No, JJ. Martindale is a very long way from Jesus Christ. But I can certainly understand anyone blanching and/or uttering some expletive. I wonder if LCM and/or TWI are aware of this exhibition, and if so, whether they have considered legal action. I don't suppose for one minute that they authorized the use of the AoS video or LCM's image.

OK, Sky, that didn't make it into Loyboy theology. You mention late 70s; did the "helps" ministries make it into the 80s?

It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget: The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)

Paul was a religious zealot of the time, a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was clearly well educated and well respected, trusted by the important people of the time, given free rein to carry out his zealotry and haul converts (heretics) off to prison. Yet he was tutored also by Gamaliel, who we’ve seen from other records took things carefully and slowly, and in perhaps a more considered manner. Paul goes off hauling folk off to prison. He meets a form of zealotry and passive resistance that astounds him: the martyr Stephen, and others in the towns he rampages. He knows that what he knows – in his head – hasn’t quite reached his heart. But he sees these people have something in their hearts. He’s suspicious, at first; doesn’t believe it’s real, but knows they have a passion that exceeds his own. (They can be a bit scary, that sort of people; yet they have something that grabs one’s attention.) After his conversion experience and with his welcome and introduction by Barnabas (how astounding that must have been!), Paul wants to know how he got it wrong. He re-examines everything he knows (and it’s a lot). (Just like we have to re-examine everything we learned from TWI in particular, and perhaps from other churches too.) He finally begins to get the big picture. Those of us who still profess to be Christians know those light-bulb moments when something suddenly comes into focus, or when such-and-such a verse appears in our Bible and it’s as though we’d never ever seen that verse before. I’m suspecting Paul had a lot of those moments. I don’t think Paul was a con-artist, any more than we escapees from TWI are con artists. If anything, we who have re-examined our beliefs and our biased studies are more passionate for what we now understand than we ever were before. Paul started from a high level of knowledge so he could examine a lot of detailed passages and draw threads together in a way that most of us cannot. Finally, finally, he gets God’s big picture, and the more he studies, ponders, preaches, the more he learns. The more he sees others apply it and live it (and it works!) the more he understands. I wonder if some of those “but I speak by permission” and “in my judgment” sections are things that he’d considered, but hadn’t at that point found any specific Torah or other scroll/scripture to support (and also nothing to negate). He realised “externals” didn’t matter (hair length, modes of dress, religious observances and rituals, etc) but that “internals” manifesting as actions, really did matter. There is so much more freedom in Paul’s epistles than he’s usually given credit for. He himself had been “under law” for so long – he knew what that was like – and he knew it wasn’t the will of God that men should be oppressed by legalism. He knew the many OT proverbs and sayings about guarding one’s heart, probably knew the oral forms of the gospels – what we know as Mt 15:1-28 for example. I don’t think a single one of us here could do anything like Paul did (not even the late Steve Lortz, whose contributions I always found interesting and usually enlightening). Paul, a con man? If it were not for Paul, we’d still be worshiping nature, Diana, Dagon, the local emperor, or other false gods.

(blushes again) Thank you, Skyrider. Yep. If it's "you" that got hurt, it is a big deal. "You," basically are all you've got. Yep again. I've posted this before: I was so desperate and destroyed that I was prepared to crawl across broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years in the wilderness. I got on the net to find their zip code. The first result for TWI was - GreaseSpot Cafe! I looked. I was appalled, horrified. And ultimately healed. My grovelly letter of apology for my imagined sins never got written. I thank God for Saint Pawtucket and this place.

Thank you for your kind words, T-Bone (blushes). I'm just out there doing my best. Whenever and wherever. Thinking about the damage caused, Rocky and Sky, I was a confident professional woman when I entered the Corps. The "head games" that they played were far worse and longer lasting than physical ill-treatment. After they booted me out, I was a wreck, thinking at one time that I was so useless that I probably wouldn't even be able to kill myself effectively. I spent ten years ("the lost years") in a daze not really knowing what was going on, and I was so hurt and damaged and spiky that it's a wonder nobody killed me before I could do that to myself. Seriously. I was a mental basket case; even now, I'm not sure I'd have the patience or compassion to love someone like me as I was then. So, I know the damage that was caused to some people, and specifically to me. I think I was being groomed, by LCM himself (Rosie saved me from that; I think she saw lawsuits coming if he persisted) and later, by his head honcho in the country where I was living. I rather fancy my non-compliance had a bearing on my being booted out. But not before they'd beaten me into total inadequacy, then left me for dead. I know what they did to my most wonderful Corps sister. I know what they did to other people, that I knew and loved. Yet because of that, I can love others in hopeless places. Thankful others cared enough. Thankful to have found a tremendous church with outstanding people who looked out for the desperate, the injured and the hurting ones. For me, I know what lingers and where the trigger points are. But still, Sky, in the wider Christian world - VPW was such a nonentity. Thank God!

I really don't think I can fully agree with you on this. "Polarizing," definitely, among some that heard of him (most, don't care - if his memory ever crosses their minds). "Huge dimensions and consequences" in some people's lives (inc many who hang out here and on other TWI-focused sites), but many walked away without a backward glance. In the scale of things - he was just another small-town sex-obsessed liar. Who actually was of such insignificance that very few have heard of him (granted, more than most small-town sex-obsessed liars). In the Christian world, he's not even a nonentity. Pathetic, really. All his grandiosity - he was just an empty paper bag.

Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse is a life changer. I couldn't put it down when I first read it. I could feel the oppression evaporating. Within a very few hours, I was like a different person. Not that all my problems disappeared; but the oppressiveness did. I saw a therapist/counsellor for a short time. She got me to talk about - can't remember now - and basically watched my body language as I talked. What she said at that point stuck with me: "When you talk about your cats, your face lights up and you look happy. Think about them when things get too much." And I think maybe things progressed from there. I remember that, when I started getting strung up about things after that, I thought about the cats. Therapist also wanted to explore parent-adult-child (P-A-C) responses. I couldn't deal with that. I told her that I felt I'd already been split into different people, characters; I was already fragmented; and I didn't need to fragment myself any more, I needed to be myself and become whole. I doubt she had ever met a cultie before and was herself a little lost with what to do, hence this P-A-C suggestion. Anyway, the short time I was attending her was enough to get me to begin to grasp hold of myself again, and with the help of loving, patient friends, many of whom are from a really supportive church, I thank God that so much has been restored to me and indeed, I have so much more to give to help others in dire circumstances. BecomingMe, you can indeed become the You that God intended. It's even okay to go off the rails a little bit, as your pendulum swings from oppression to a type of freedom. You will find a balance. You are safe, here, to explore the strange things that happened to you; your strange thinking patterns; your unusual behavior or responses; or whatever. In a way, we're all recovering addicts here. Some of us are just plain wacky in other areas. Here. Have a hug. And a good laugh. Now let's have a bevvy. Waiter!!

Hmm. Living Hope Ministries. "Living Hope International Ministries provides many services to the believer including Teaching, Counseling, and Fellowship." Different... teaching, counseling and fellowship. (Not that I'd want to be "counseled" by anyone ever associated in any form with TWI.)

Don't know about that poem, WW, too many connotations about the "fair haired youth" that danced around in tights. It was really promoted, to boost up both Loy and the amazing leadership and preparation made by the lonely but visionary wise old grey-head. I knew the poem before I'd ever heard of TWI, but (as ever), the twist TWI gave it has made it unpalatable. However, I do like the idea of we older escapees being bridge-builders for the newer escaped, except that we're not aiding them at evening twilight, we're aiding them into the bright light of day, clearsightedness and FREEEEDDDDDOOOOMMMM! (note the sunnies, for the bright light; not wearing the rose-tinted glasses of PFAL).

Welcome, and have an interesting time here. You'll find others that were raised in TWI too. It must be hard for you to adjust to life in all its abundance outside the wails, sorry, walls, of Zion. Many of us who have been out for a long time stay around to help newbies like you. You can talk here about some of the things that happened to you and you don't need to explain too much. We understand. Have a cup of coffee and put your feet up!

Good point, Thomas.

Or, if you like Outandabout's analogy, here's another little something. Please do pay attention to the "state" (and barely "standing") of the item referrred to.

Here is a little something, for the Way Tree:

Anyway - how many "households" are there in a body? My body, and doubtless yours, comprises blood, skin, bone, various soft tissues (and harder tissues), arranged as fingers, toes, lungs, etc. But my body, and doubtless yours, doesn't have any "households." It's just ... a body.

So thankful for the outstanding Christians that I have encountered in my church, the parent church, the local abbey (traditional main city church). and the very many people I've encountered through Christian organisations I'm involved with. There are so many ways to learn from each other (and preaching in church is only a small part of it) and so many ways to serve each other and the very much wider community. I wouldn't want to pull any elitist cards over them; such tremendous people, I'd prefer to emulate their heart and commitment, not "lord it over them." Oddly, there are some that think that about me, too! (Now I know they must be lacking in role models!). Try checking out this verse in other translations: and also this: Sorry, I missed the elitist bit that shows that the "household" gets to be the superior part of the Body of Christ.

Gets better. Might he have assaulted this child whilst he was a director? Conviction Jan 2014, incident likely therefore some time in 2013 at latest. One hopes he was M&A'd and publicly humiliated, just like those of us who looked at someone else without the appropriate expression of awe on our faces. Any of our newer Cafe patrons know about him being M&A'd?

Lovely, what a nice man. Obviously didn't get the memo that only girls over 16 were "fair game." Conviction 2014; would that be close to the date of the crime, or might it a historical crime (ie, he assaulted the girl 20 or 30 years ago and it's only just come to light)? Could it be something that happened at a Family Corps location? What sort of sentence would he get for this - suppose it would depend on the extent of the unlawful activity. Scuse me while I go and throw up.

Well, that sounds quite promising. Sounds good. One of the things that I have enjoyed about going to my church is that sometimes a familiar Bible passage will be read - and then the talk (sermon) is something so wildly different from the TWI "standard line" that it might as well be a different book altogether. But always, there is the Bible passage, and then an effort to link that to how we should be responding now, what our actions and heart should be - without ever "pointing the finger" and NEVER with any kind of bellowing, shouting, name-calling or bad language. Perhaps you can encourage these people you're hanging out with to read a variety of different Bible translations. You might find that very helpful, both in choice of words, and in how some passages are punctuated. Also try looking at one or some of the more modern "thought for thought" versions, considering why they chose a particular turn of phrase, and what that might communicate to people today. Frankly, now, I find it impossible to read, or hear read, the AV (what you call KJV), for a variety of reasons, one of which is the mindset I find myself being dragged back into, and dubious teaching brought back. There are other threads here about what Bible versions people prefer, and why. You do understand, don't you, that VPW chose AV not because "it's the most accurate" but because he pinched a class that had been started in it, then pinched other men's work (esp Bullinger's); and giving his versions of archaic language made him seem to be a scholar. In fact HE DID NOT understand the language or some of the turns of phrase. If he'd understood English, especially idiomatic English, and English grammar, some of his phony difficulties wouldn't even have been there for him to expound his great wisdom. And if he'd understood English, especially idiomatic English, and English grammar, there are in fact some real gems that he could have drawn from some passages.

Taxidev, nice that you've found a local fellowship that you can enjoy. My question is: these teachers - are they doers of what they say? even more, are they doers of what the Bible commands them to do? and do they lead others into doing by example? This will have a practical outworking of service to the community at large, regardless of whether they are Christian believers or other people? Are these teachers full of head knowledge, or has that head knowledge developed into really wise, gentle, ways of dealing with complex situations?

I'd agree, and perhaps this part can be split off from the original "cite his sources" thread.

I never saw "Staying Alive" but I just watched a couple of clips on YouTube. Wow! Yet more plagiarism!! Extended plagiarism!!!!

Sky, glad VPW was wrong, and you got to make up with your parents. You also got to see the clay feet of your tormentor. But he achieved his goal: bound you closer to himself, and there you remained, at least for his lifetime. So much for "builds harmony in the home." Only if your "home" is in a cult!!