Twinky

Hi Surfcat. Maybe we know a few people in common. I got witnessed to in Birmingham mid 80s and then met many of the other UK believers, in London, Gartmore, and other locations. Anyhow, welcome, and enjoy your stay. Have a nice cup of tea and some yummy cake.

Good article. Beware scammers everywhere - especially in churches!

Hmm, she did that in 2016, when he first appeared in court. Distancing herself. Closing the door after the horse has bolted, as it were. What, she only just found out about Vic's indiscretions?

Oh WW. That poem. A good poem of its time, but very tainted for me. It was so used to support VPW's leading the way for the fair-haired LCM. Maybe I should read the poem repeatedly until it loses its associations (like I can hear the word "Corps" now without my hair standing on end).

No doubt JJ never thought he'd still be making these videos contra'ing VPW, after all these years. As well as showing the copies of the books plagiarised by VPW, it might have been useful if JJ had recommended one or two deeper (but not too deep) theological tomes by reputable writers, since he mentions that VPW's writings are not only plagiarised, but shallow, sloppy, subbed, stolen, etc. Too many ex-Wayfers have no idea where to start looking, if they want more info, or want to study or think for themselves, and find it difficult to accept, let alone analyse, the content of non-Way materials. Anyway, well done John, for sticking with it all these years.

Hey, annio! It's quite something, isn't it, when the scales start falling from the eyes! You won't untangle everything all at once, so don't beat yourself up about it. You will soon work out what's most important for you to know, to understand, to put right. I'd say (though others here would differ) that the Lord will show you where you need to start. If you are attending a church of any kind, how do the people interact? Does it seem forced, too friendly, not friendly enough; do they seem to care for each other without being intrusive in each other's lives? How do the leaders behave? Quietly, humbly, approachably, listening; or overbearingly / dictatorially / or otherwise a bit uncomfortably? It's okay, you can check out various churches. Or, should the desire take you, check out non-Christian organisations. I try to love God; love my fellow human beings and try to help them; and try not to be too cynical or jaundiced when people say things that seem a bit "off" (you and I probably say/said wacky things too in early recovery mode!)

Perhaps "American Christianity" itself is a problem. Think of the number of inordinately rich televangelists, and those who teach that "prosperity" means "lotsa money." Which leads to the thinking that "I'm rich, therefore that means God has blessed me." And the corollary, "You're poor. You're out of favour with God." That never has been the promise, message, offer, call it what you will, that God makes. "Prosper" in its archaic meaning (=AV/KJV) means "thrive" or "do well" - animals, plants, and activities can all "prosper" and money has nothing to do with it. More on topic with the opening post, it might be salutary to consider how other Christians' traditions fare. Those in China or Saudi Arabia, for example, or even Christians in Israel. Do they see non-Christians as "the enemy"? I think not. I think they "see" much bigger than that. They see the spiritual intent - far bigger than tribalism. The treatment meted out to such Christians can be so vicious that unless the victims were convinced of something much bigger than themselves, they wouldn't "take a stand;" instead they'd recant. Bullies will, however, always find some hook for their hat (or hatred), so it's no surprise that Christian bullies (aka legalists) find a "hate thy enemy" message instead of the real message, "love thy enemy." Why are people bullies? Ah well. Let me count the reasons...!

Good, about time that was done.

What is this? Huh? Is this specific RC doctrine, or something taught where you go, Oldies? Maybe you could expound a bit in Doctrinal?

Hello, Norbetow. Welcome to the Café. Little bit quiet at the moment, but wait till one or two people come through the door, and start throwing things at each other, LOL. Meantime, have a coffee and a cake.

Frankly, I don't give a fig for any of them. I simply don't care enough about any of it to get excited. Who can get excited about tatty old wineskins?I live my life the best I can doing what I can for the Lord, and that gets me excited enough. Well, that and the bottle of decent red wine that a friend and I just finished.

Fun to speculate on the conversation in the prison cell between VB and Carmen T0rnamb3. D'ya think they'd spend time wondering why they were there, what they had done wrong? Perhaps VB would make Carmen a procurer again for him, this time of fresh young inmates so that they could be his bitches.

I live in the UK and even I managed to see a TV doco about all this. So it's well "open knowledge." And no, I don't believe Carmen has been charged. Or even horse-whipped.

Thanks, Rocky. One nasty PoS beats up another even nastier PoS. I note VB's attacker was himself a molester of underage kids. But he says VB deserved it and VB is a master manipulator. Wow. No surprises there, though. Not a great loss to society, these two.

Can't open the link, what does it say? Obviously that VB was attacked - by whom, how badly? Not that I have a lot of sympathy, though he shouldn't have been attacked.

You might like this book, Rocky. It's by the so-called Vicar of Baghdad about his work of reconciliation in the community there. The book was given to me yesterday by an unbeliever friend - he'd read it and found it fascinating, which is quite something for him, being as he only read books on military history. https://www.amazon.com/Father-Forgive-Reflections-Andrew-White/dp/0857212923 Andrew White's "Reflections on Peacemaking." Available on Kindle, shows US$11, but possibly a different price if you order from a US internet address.

On a purely personal basis, after TWI dumped me and I fell deep into in a huge hole of despair, I was living in another country. I didn't feel at home in my own country and not among my own family. I didn't feel at home or comfortable anywhere. But I did feel a huge need to "belong" somewhere, and specifically to my new country. So I applied for naturalisation and now have dual nationality. I am not sure whether the naturalisation helped, because I came back to my original country a couple of years afterwards. I remain keenly interested in my second country even though I don't live there now; I visit frequently; family matters keep me here now but maybe at some time in the future...? I feel I "belong" in my church community. Both here and in the other country. When I visit the other country I go to a church there, St C's, which is so like St A's that I attend here that it's a real home from home. If I'd know about St C's I might never have left. Ha ha. If we knew what the future held, would we still want it? I think my immediate future holds - a cup of tea. And maybe a piece of cake.

I checked out the website for the author of the book you suggest, Rocky. She's a "bright young thing" and I noticed her video of people dancing, playing together, and generally looking as though they were having a good time. I'd just make the point that it's ever so easy to feel lonely in a big crowd where you feel you ought to be having fun … but somehow, the fun has passed you by. It seems to me that the best way to "belong" is to participate in something you're interested in and to give of yourself, which is harder than it seems. Forget yourself, and think about the other participants, or the activity itself. And enjoy, too. Enjoy "belonging."

We’re social animals. We’re not built to live alone, but in relationship with one another. A rather famous book tells us “It is not good for [man] to be alone.” I’ve been pondering “relationships” for some while now. We all have relationship, ideally across several groups. Doesn’t matter who you are, or what you do: there are few of us that have no relationships. Maybe it’s a church. Maybe it’s the model railway club. Maybe it’s your mates as you enjoy a drink in the pub. Your relationships help you feel grounded, safe, a part of where you are: you belong. As Rocky comments, I work with vulnerable and street people. The homeless community is exactly that: a community. Like any other community, it has sub-branches. This particularly struck me last Saturday night, talking with a woman who’d settled into a doorway. She wouldn’t go into the covered car park where homeless people often stay – “They’re dirty people down there.” We visited that group of people too. There were five of them, smoking heroin and doing other drugs. A very weird bunch. But a definite “community” and supportive of each other. Sometimes, relationships aren’t helpful. The drug-taking (or drinking, or whatever) people that we saw – it’s hard to leave for those who want to be clean, to start afresh. They have to leave that “support” group and take steps into a world that they left because it was painful or frightening. And that world doesn’t really want them because it sees them as a problem. They don’t “belong” in the non-druggie world. I don’t know if Rocky started this thread because of the Charles Manson thread, where we discussed reintegration into society after many years in prison. Ex-prisoners often have a huge problem reintegrating. By getting incarcerated, they cease to “belong” to the “non-con” world, and generally prison doesn’t help people address the cause of their offending and rehabilitate them to a more “normal” (?) world. They don’t belong there; they don’t feel safe. Some reoffend because they like being in jail. They feel safe. They feel they’re in a community where they belong. In the UK now, there’s a push to remove all custodial sentences of less than 12 months, because of the realisation of the huge breaking of support bonds, relationships, within the “non-con” world. Better to keep people in their existing relationships – better from so many points of view, but not least, to help people not re-offend. (It doesn’t mean offenders aren’t punished; just that they don’t go to prison – probation, community service orders, requirements to undertake courses like anger management etc, reparation of various types) (and obviously, not for very serious offences.)

I'm sorry about that, Pamdalarryum. Great example of "more harmony in the home." TWI counselling, ha ha ha. I suppose the only decent thing out of it was that the Corpsman married your wife; it wasn't the usual "date and switch" where a marriage was broken up and both were left hanging. Very difficult for you when it came to looking after the two children. Well done, you, for the way you've coped with it all.

Unfortunately all too true. In my voluntary work with homeless and vulnerable people, I've found two main reasons for homelessness. The main one is relationship breakdown; the second is coming out of prison. There may be an interrelationship, but we don't usually ask why they went to prison in the first place, though in some cases it's because of violence, quite possibly towards their partner or wider family. Younger homeless people might be there because of family breakdown. Then they might turn to drugs to fund their unhappy lifestyle and they get a free bed and board at public expense. When people are released, the problems that put them in prison in the first place haven't been magically healed but rather are considerably exacerbated, not to mention the arrested emotional development that most ex-prisoners sustain. I suppose it all comes down to relationship breakdown really. I don't know why Manson committed his crimes, what his background was. I don't know why the young women joined him as partners in crime. I don't know why Leslie VH's background made her vulnerable to joining his murderous bunch. His little cult. Why she let him twist her mind to commit heinous crimes. I do know why some of us joined a cult, how unhappy at home relationships some of us were, what family stresses there were, and what life was life for some people. We too let our minds be re-formed, and then did utterly reprehensible things and also treated non-cult people heinously. For many of us, post-leaving has been/was difficult and it was hard to recover. For some of those in long-term - what do they do but go off and start another cult, seeking the life that they knew before. Keep themselves safe in the prison of their mind. Relationships. Relationships: build good strong relationships. Help your kids, grandkids, and those around you to build decent relationships. Befriend the vulnerable and help them back into relationship with society. Okay. Lesson for the day over. Bit early in the morning (before 10am) to be pondering such deep thoughts. I will wake up properly in about half an hour. Now, where's the caffeine? (= me with morning tea)

US prison sentences are obscenely long, well, the whole prison system really, but let's not go there in this discussion. At the age of 69, to be released would be almost, if not more, horrendous for her than imprisoning her in the first place. She has no-one of her own age (at least, not "straight" people, probably knows plenty of ex-cons), no place to go, probably very little support (genuine support, not a probation service), not that much knowledge of how the world "works" to be able to fit into it; and who knows what illnesses she may have acquired in prison - mental or physical. Limited options available, of which two are homelessness and living on the street; and committing further crimes (theft, robbery) to meet whatever physical/food needs she has. It would be small wonder if (if released) she didn't commit further crimes so as to get returned to prison, the environment she knows.

Try this link instead: http://web.archive.org/web/20030215211031/http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm

I don't know anything about "military Wow" but it would obviously differ significantly from the normal WoW program, in that your time and locations are tightly controlled by someone other than TWI. I'd like to know more about the program. Did anyone on it get to spend time off base with other believers in the countries they were stationed in (f such people existed) or with locals (to witness to)? (I suspect there was very little of the latter interchange.)

Hilarious! Yes, definitely expensive in Way-style finding God. Not just expensive in money terms, either. In shattered lives and relationships. Did your marriage improve, or completely fall apart?