Twinky

Waxit, you'll like this: I'll partially give you the point about the manna. Certainly it's on the 7th day - from something.

(wish I could get the quote function right...!)

Rejoice and be joyful! Party time!! Celebrate the birthday of the church as we know it. Here's a song for us all.

Please help us to understand you. What is your story, your background? I knew you face to face, when you were an earnest young man and we both lived in another country. Regrettably, I introduced you to TWI, which you embraced with fervour. You told me recently some of what happened in later years after our paths separated. What happened before we met (you never said anything of that)? What happened in later years (you told me a little, personally, but it's nothing exceptional in the norm of junk stuff that happens - our own fault or other people's faults). Saul/Paul went after Christians with a religious mandate to murder them. And he did! Did you murder someone, many perhaps, for blasphemy? Nicky Cruz was a gang member who rose to become a mightily feared man of great evil power, local warlord, terroriser of the city and other gangs. Converted by David Wilkerson, he went on to become an international evangelist. Read his story in Run, Baby, Run. John Lawson is a British born Christian Evangelist, who, in his former life was a violent criminal that gave his life to Christ in prison in 2005. Since his release from prison with a ‘new heart and a new spirit’ in Christ, John has gone on to share his new found faith with others. Today, he is a full time UK based evangelist serving as an Evangelist and Mission Leader and trainer within the Great Commission Society. These, and other men like them, might consider themselves "one of the worst sinners" yet they share their stories with joy, knowing what God has rescued them from, and demonstrating how thankful they are. Were you a murdering religious zealot? Or just a one-off murderer? A violent thug? A drug-runner? A repeat offender in prison for crimes great and small? (I don't believer you were any of these, you never gave me cause to think that. Even if you were, it would make no difference, if you live your best for God now.) What? Why are you "one of the worst sinners"? What changed you; why did you feel the need to change? How did you come to understand what you now do?

I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Counting from when? Are you saying the entire world (or maybe universe) was created in only 6x24-hr periods? Even if yes, who was around to count from day 1? Are you saying that God said to Adam, "I made you on Day 6, do have a nice sleep tomorrow, make sure you don't do a thing; and then get to work the day after that"? And Adam and Eve and all their kids counted every seventh day from then and took the day off? Are you counting from 4004BC or something? I asked you in an earlier post, what about ancient rock, fossil and other records of civilisations very very much older than 4000 years. Whatever you are saying about Babylonians is irrelevant, since they (and their calendar) were not around when God created the world, nor when Adam and Eve first walked upon it. Therefore, you have to discount what they thought about days. Or can you prove (that's prove, not think) that they managed to count from the beginning of the earth? If that is your assertion, please explain how they did this. How - please - can you possibly say: "The only calendar that people had from the time God set the weekly pattern was day 1 to day 7."

God is also a God of mercy. Is that --- is that going over your head? Mercy follows after justice, and takes the sting out of it. You have access to BibleHub and other Bible software. Look how many times God is referred to as merciful. Re-read the "mercy parables" in Luke 15, compare and contrast with other parables and records of God's mercy in both OT and NT. Time for you to PAY ATTENTION NOW.

Calm down, Waxit. We've all had our journeys out of TWI. Some of us have been very badly abused. Some still have good memories. Your journey is your journey; do share the bits that you think will help people. You don't know where others have "been" - I do know my own experiences of life during TWI and particularly the enormous injury afterwards (that I have told you about) have enabled me to reach out to others with much greater compassion. If you permit it, God will enable you to bless and help others, when you share your journey (but only to help others and show that recovery is possible when they are "down the bottom of the well." - ie, not share because your story is better, worse, more/less lurid, etc - the story is how God rescued you, not about you, glorify Him not you). People here have tried to understand where you are coming from, and have asked you questions, both to understand you and perhaps to help you. Your responses are often repetitive, hectoring, lecturing, generally unresponsive and less than respectful. Would it be true to say that you think those who disagree with you do not love God? Despite what they do, believe, how they act - they will be banished for ever? Please, Waxit, have a bigger view of God. He sent Jesus to die horrifically so that all might live - not be banished. All have sinned, all have done wrong, and all will continue to do wrong, despite best efforts otherwise. God allows us to go wrong, time after time. He knows we (all) are imperfect, we are foolish, we don't understand enough. He's not looking to catch us out - he's looking to draw us (all) in. If people do their best but it's wrong, or at least, not perfect, does a loving God slam the door? If a child does wrong, does a parent banish the child from the house? Or look on, smile, and be glad that he has a child, even though the child does wrong? We bring JOY to God, Waxit. He smiles on us with pleasure. He doesn't slam the door on us.

Happy days at TWI in rez included a few birthday parties, usually on Saturday, since that was the only free-ish day. A few surprise parties with friends (though now I come to think of it, only in the first year, not the second). Nothing commercial, but handmade gifts or something rescued from Plurality Palace, handmade cards, tea/coffee and maybe a few biscuits (cookies, to you in the US). Sneaking into Wierwille Pond one very hot summer night for a quiet swim - access was banned because the noise might disturb Mrs W - but it was soooo hot and the water was sooo inviting. There. I've confessed it now. So shoot me. I had a great heart to serve God and knew I had little clothing and other things when I arrived. I prayed: "God, I've put everything I have into this. Now, open the windows of heaven and shower me with all the things I need that I don't have." After two or three weeks, my roomie said, "Do you really need all this? Can I have some more space in our shared wardrobe?" and I realised that I was way overstepping my half-wardrobe. People would just come and leave some item of clothing for me that they thought I'd like or need, never knew who, but it was all stuff I needed. Then I prayed again: "God, that's enough, you can close the windows on this now, at least as far as the clothing goes," and nobody left more things. At no time did I mention any of this to anybody, never as far as I can recall did I ask anyone for clothes.

Or "go out for a fag" or "have a fag" - yes, cigarette is one meaning, homosexual is another, and there are various other meanings, some of which will be UK specific. One could also be "fagged" which doesn't mean buggered, well not in the sexual way; it means, be very tired. Hehe. Language can be a "false friend" at times.

I had some trouble with my What to Bring list when I went in rez. There's this big long list of items that are required. Some I knew by different names. I never quite worked out what "galoshes" are. I think this is another word that has a different meaning; it's a different type of footwear outside the USA. I think that perhaps "wellies" was meant by this. Anyway - as I couldn't find any, I never got any, and never missed having them.

On the flip side of above post, Americans might talk about "shifting their fannies" (moving fast, moving their bottoms, buttocks). A "fanny" is a slightly lower part of the female anatomy in Commonwealth English, the part that may be called "c*nt," with about the same level of obsceneness.

Had some fun with this one in the Corps. Both ways. Once, some Corps bros came to me and said, "What's a wanker?" or some such. Some question involving the verb form of that, too long ago now. Two of my commonwealth Corps bros had been teaching them some interestingly different words, and they'd said that this meant … whatever. My Corps bros were a bit unsure, these two lads being pranksters. The shocked look on my face confirmed the Corps bros' worst fears. I believe "wank" is what one does in the states to tighten a bolt with a spanner. In UK and Commonwealth English it is a thing men do with their private parts. And a "wanker" is a useless, idle, good for nothing person - it's a very big insult. It is not a mechanic tightening bolts (though in his spare time, he could be a wanker as well). I'm wondering if this post will successfully get through the lewd language filters here and elsewhere.

But you still haven't accounted for whenever you are counting from. The seventh day from when? And how can you possibly know what day the earth was created? Which day? The day that the earth was formless and void? The day the sun shone for the first time? The day the first man walked on earth? You are obviously counting literal days; do you think that? A literal day when (eg) animals were formed and roamed the earth? How can you say the very day that some aspect of the earth's creation was on some specific day, when there were no people around to keep records? Where do ancient fossil records fit into your computation? Most people think that the earth developed in stages, periods, sometimes lasting thousands or millions of year - not literal 24 hr periods. You know Australian aborigines trace their history back tens of thousands of years (and they have written records (drawings that can be carbon-dated) to prove it). In the UK it's proven that (eg) Stonehenge is tens of thousands of years old (carbon-dating from not just the Stones and debris found at the foot of the Stones, but from other artefacts found nearby) (Stonehenge is very much older than merely the famous stones, which are quite new in comparison with the entire site). My church (unlike yours) does not decree any day, but we choose to meet together on a particular day. Other churches choose other days, perhaps because of other work or care commitments. Would you condemn all health workers for working on the sabbath (whatever day is chosen for that)? I wouldn't! I'd say they honour God by their service and honour God in their off-duty time as well. After all, God didn't condemn Levites for ministering on the reserved day.

Waxit, it is Saturday. It is not yet sunset in the country in which you are living. Why have you been posting here for the last two hours, which would be since about 4pm your local time? Isn't that "work" that is forbidden on the sabbath (today being Saturday)?

LOL, T-Bone. You have a great sense of humor (note US spelling).

That's me, T-Bone! I could spell words the American way, but then, it wouldn't really be me, would it? You Yanks really need to learn to spell correctly (hehe). Actually there are some US spellings that (now) seem better to me. In the UK, we tend to use the verb endings "-ise"" where US might write "-ize" (formalise/ formalize) but now knowing a bit about how many Greek words were formulated with a transliterated Z (zed/zee) at the end, I'm less against the "ize" ending. However, there are other words that have distinct differences: Practice - in UK is a noun but in US is a verb; practise is the UK verb, US noun. So you might at times think my spelling is poor, but it's not; whereas I might think the same of you and then have to re-think because this is a US platform with US spellings. (Nonetheless, there are some people who post here whose spelling and grammar really are appalling.) Very funny, Waysider. Who knows, I might have some more of these badges somewhere. And the WOW pin. (I couldn't say where!) As to the books, I kept very few Way pubs, burned some, burned most SNS and Corps notes. I do have some of the other books that were recommended or required that are non-Way pubs. I could be a serious study-hound and am very, very good at that. However, really, I consider that what matters is what the outworking is in someone's life (and in mine, in particular). Is a person kind, gentle, patient, giving, compassionate? Rather than working on the books and printed study material, I'd rather work on that in my own life. Might be thinking through what I know, and might involve the studying of the lives of those around me, to see how they "live the Word," and learn from their amazing generosity, kindness and compassion. I am very blessed with a really well-instructed, awesome, giving, service-oriented church, which despite these socially-distanced times seems to have pulled together and is closer-knit than ever before. Not just the "leaders" but practically everybody is looking out for a significant number of people in our community (not just the church community).

I knocked a little pot over this morning. Thought I'd picked everything up, but later stood on something - a gold-coloured SIT badge,

Waxit certainly got us talking and having a think about why we think what we think. It's been an interesting discussion at times, and I've been glad to review my own understandings and investigate other parts of the Bible. It's all about seeing the big picture, isn't it? God's heart and concern for all his people. And a rest for his people is what is promised, many times, of which the sabbath (or day of rest, particular day unspecified) is just a part. He hasn't convinced anyone, in part because he hasn't made the effort to touch hearts and genuinely listen to other views than his own. It was more an imposition - Way-style --> "This is what you must do. Because I say (that God says) so." Without seeing, or caring, that others of us see that God says something different. I wonder if he will try to convince other groups of his belief? Here is a link to the official stance of Jehovah's Witnesses, who do believe in assembling together and having a day of rest, but again, don't say it should be a particular day of the week. Maybe Waxit could try in a JW forum. https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201109/A-Weekly-Holy-Day-Is-It-Required/

Yep. Everything I, and others on this thread, goes right over your head. We don't live in OT times, Waxit. We have a little more freedom than that. I am not "finding legal loopholes" (which you seem to think is wrong) - I am explaining how law works. I am jolly sure that God intended man to take regular rest from his normal labours. Absolutely! And I have always made it clear to you (should you choose to look) that I do exactly that. I set out in detail how I enjoy my "sabbath rest" and use it to glorify God. I love doing that. Where I absolutely do not agree with you, Waxit, is that it is a special day (that you see as Saturday) and only that day, that must be utilised for the sabbath rest. I do not think it is possible to say that any "original" sabbath day was on any particular day of the week. In fact, I'd say the task is absolutely impossible. And furthermore, I don't believe that God would be one jot upset if anyone (at all) chose to enjoy their day of rest, their sabbath, on some other day of the week, because of whatever commitments that person might have. If you think that, you know a different God from the one I do. Mine is loving, caring, graceful, compassionate, peaceful, forgiving and a lot of other wonderful things besides. My God is not vindictive and will throw me away forever if I happen to celebrate a day of loving him - on the wrong day of the week. Think about that.

I think you have it a little upside down, Waxit. For one thing, things don't "hang" on a foundation. But if you substitute "depend" for "hang" as some versions do, then yes, all things depend on these two laws for their foundation. Strong's translates this as "All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments." You do realise, don't you, that when laws are passed, the statutory law is usually not the be-all and end-all of it? There are many subsidiary regulations (in Commonwealth countries called Statutory Instruments (SIs), possibly different in other jurisdictions) But the SI regulations must adhere to the sense of the law itself. It's my view that all the Big Ten commandments, and all the following commandments, are just like that: Statutory Instruments, further defining what is meant by the foundational law(s) but not overriding them. The foundation is just that: the foundation. The most important part. The building atop the foundation can be cleared away entirely, it's just overlay. But the foundation remains and can be built upon afresh. The most important part of the foundation is the Cornerstone. Try checking out what a cornerstone is, architecturally. Here's a start: https://www.newstudioarchitecture.com/newstudio-blog/architectural-cornerstones Do you need even one "guess" at who (not what) the cornerstone is of the church? Who orients his church in a specific direction? And whose apostles and prophets also form part of the foundation? Here's a little clue, from Eph 2:20: The apostles and prophets observed the sabbath, as did Jesus himself, in pre-crucifixion times. I'm not sure it would be true to say that they observed the sabbath in the same way afterwards; can you say that? The ones who remained in Jerusalem got rather legalistic (it's so easy to do that, isn't it? = do the actions without refining the heart and intent); maybe they continued to be sabbath-on-Saturday (as you say) observant; but all the apostles, helpers, converts, who helped spread the early message didn't seem to be sabbath-y on Saturday. They just met together regularly.

Waxit sent me a reply to a question I asked him earlier, but which for some unknown reason he was unable to post here. I have his permission to quote his email to me. I am not endorsing his views and leave it to others to have their say on what Waxit says:

Waxit, you said: Following the examples you yourself think appropriate, I could say: WHERE exactly does it say that Jesus COMMANDED us to keep the Sabbath? He says, Keep MY (my, my, my) commandments. And Jesus's biggest commandments (if you like) are these: FIRSTLY 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] SECONDLY 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” Note: ONLY TWO commandments. And I can't see any mention of any kind of special days, sabbath or otherwise. And Jesus himself says: There is no commandment greater than these. Note that it DOES NOT SAY: 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength and you must keep the sabbath. In fact, it's conspicuous by its absence. Even you have to agree that ... don't you?

I think he shared some of that on the other thread. Bit confusing, having two almost identical threads on the go.

It's "No-one f---g knows" as they reach the finish line!! LOL!

Waxit, I recommended BibleHub to you (it sounds as though it's new to you?) not so that you could find another way to go picking and choosing, but to help improve your deeper study and scholastic ability. Please tell me you're not using this to get nitpicky and evasive when asked questions. (You may quote this paragraph should you choose to reply to this comment.) (= 15 words plus 13 in parentheses.)