Twinky

"Militant piety" - LoL!!

This man died nearly 40 years ago. Of what possible relevance to this day and time is his "last teaching"? What can this Biblically illiterate bombast have to say that is relevant to now? [One could ask, was it ever relevant? But that's another issue.] Without doubt, there are real ministers of the church of Jesus Christ that do have something relevant to say to today's generations. It might be more worthwhile (much more worthwhile) to spend time pondering what they have to say.

MIKE: I just came across this in this week's newsletter from the central church in my city. I thought you might find this interesting, to see what you should be looking for if you take up my suggestion to find a good local church community near you. It's written by an Anglican bishop, but the fundamentals apply to ALL churches. This week Bishop Michael held a diocesan gathering in Bridgwater and spoke profoundly of our shared multifaceted ministry. He underlined simply and expansively that we need each other. On one level we might say, surely this is nothing new. But, there is a new emphasis in the Church of England on what it really means to ‘share’ in ministry as God’s people – as lay and ordained leaders, as church family, and as volunteers. So what does this mean for us? Firstly, all of us are called to share in praying for the Abbey and our mission across the city. Secondly, we are all called to encourage each other, to notice each others’ skills and gifts, and to affirm one another in them. Thirdly, we are all called to value everyone whom God brings through our doors. Fourthly, every voice matters. Recently Bishop Michael has been highlighting the priorities of the diocese in this new season, and be encouraged they align very closely with our own: To value and cherish people. To develop new Christian worshipping communities. To share in ministry and leadership. To deepen and grow in faith. At the Abbey we are blessed to have such an abundance of gifts through you. Thank you for all you contribute to the life of the Abbey. And special thanks to those of you whose work and ministry is often hidden, for example: our Holy Dusters, Intercessors, Administrators, and not least the work of our Church Wardens! Last night, our Archdeacon, Adrian Youings formally welcomed and admitted Church Wardens across the Archdeaconry, and it was a joy to share in this service with David and Andrew. We now welcome David Babb as he works alongside Andrew Bragg in this role. ... [photo] Each year Bath and Wells highlights a passage of scripture to ‘dwell with’. This year it is Romans 12.6-16a which speaks of the marks of a Christian. Paul writes: “Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honour. Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers”. In so many ways, these characteristics are so prevalent among us as a church, but are there new ways in which we can deepen even further our expressions of love, honour, prayer, zeal and hospitality? May God’s image in me be restored, and my imagination in God be re-storied. May the gravity of material things be lightened, and the relativity of time slow down. May I know grace to embrace my own finite smallness in the arms of God’s infinite greatness. May God’s Word feed me and His Spirit lead me into the week to come. Amen.

You might want to try a good church near you. You may find more sense of community than you expect (if not, try a different church). You'll find people have in common the love of Christ, honour for God, sharing time and resources, grace, patience, helping one another. You may also find a range of different Christian PoVs, so there can be interesting discussions - but all these will be tempered by respect and love. You probably won't find lots of pretend Greek exposition, but you will find lots of loving action, help, service, and good teaching on relevant subjects for today's challenges in life. You won't find face-meltings, tearing others down in the guise of "tough love," and a constant demand for your money. If you do, walk out Don't condemn it before you give it a good, serious try.

There are some eternal truths that would be true, whether said decades ago, or now. And whether VPW said them, or someone else did. He himself was the one who said that "every generation needs to make the Word its own," ie, learns to apply Biblical principles in their generation and circumstances. Hmmm. Did he mean that (for example) "kindness" changes? However, I don't trust what he said or wrote. Wasn't too sure about some things when first heard in PFAL; definitely am not sure now. Everything he said or wrote needs confirmation from some other source(s), sources that are in no way Way related.

He said that? Jeepers! Won't influence others? What about the continual undermining of one's own integrity? What about building a habit of disrespecting others? You are what you think, and sooner or later what you think will spill over into your actions. He clearly missed the gems such as 1 Sam 16:7 - for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

Deut 27:17: "Cursed be he that removeth his neighbor's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen." Somewhere or other in PFAL VPW goes into this meaning, "the landmark of the mind, one's personal boundaries." Cursed be those who shift one's boundaries. I have so often thought of this, because what happens in TWI is that the more one becomes enmeshed, the more one's boundaries and one's moral compass are shifted. A little bit here, a little nudge there, an unchallenged overstretch elsewhere... It all goes to shifting the boundaries of the mind. Until finally, there are few boundaries, and such as they are depend almost entirely on dictats of the cult leader. The insidious nature of this can be hard to spot at first. It may well be true that some of us had inappropriate boundaries - too strict or too lax - that maybe should have been moved. Our morals might not have been very healthy. But any movement should have been to bring us closer into alignment with the scriptures - not to enable us to do whatever we wanted "in the love of God." NO NO NO a thousand times NO! And that doesn't just mean our sexual boundaries, but boundaries relating to honesty, integrity, not stealing, not lying, not hurting each other ("tough love"). Work time. Family time. Sleep time. Recreational time. Day to day living has boundaries, and if appropriate they need to be respected. What somebody else chooses might not be your choice, but it's theirs to choose. And yours to respect. Tis but short steps between immorality, amorality and becoming completely callous towards others. Brutal, even. Just refresh yourselves on 2 Peter 2, which well describes "false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies" (verse 1) and slashes through the "do as you like" ideas that some false teacher even then were propounding.

Some of you might find this item of interest. Made-up doctrine, in any event. No better than Pharisees commanding the washing of hands, dishes, and other rituals that have no Biblical basis. https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Roman-Catholic-Tradition-of-Eating-Fish-on-Fridays

I don't know US court procedure, but I did see this (my emphasis), dated Tuesday, April 11, 2023 ORDER: The Court has been advised that all claims asserted herein have been settled in principle. ECF No. 92. Accordingly, the above-entitled action is hereby dismissed and discontinued without costs, and without prejudice to the right to reopen the action within thirty days of the date of this Order if the settlement is not consummated. Any application to reopen must be filed within thirty days of this Order; any application to reopen filed thereafter may be denied solely on that basis Most of the documents are unavailable except to professional personnel. However, from the above, which is of public record, it seems to me that TWI is off the hook again. Paid over plenty of money, no doubt, and got a confidentiality clause put in the settlement as well. No findings against, and no admissions of liability.

Not "what am I [Twinky] fighting?" but "what is Mike fighting?" as it's a quote from something he wrote. Right on there, Oldiesman. And not confined to any particular church or denomination, either.

STL, I knew there'd be some interesting controversial views! Maybe they remain perpetual virgins? But some say there are no virgins at all. Instead, there are white grapes, or raisins. How very disappointing for those foolish martyrs who expect wives, and get raisins. https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/islamic-scholar-punctures-72-virgins-theory-says-martyrs-will-only-get-raisins-in-heaven-340579.html

Could you copy your response here, please? If you can, delete response from the other thread.

We had a great chat in my church housegroup about "integrity" and how it applies in today's life, in today's situations, in real situations current for members of our housegroup. Integrity and compromise. Holding the line, without being obnoxious, close-minded, or bigoted. Perhaps A great secret (not THE greatest secret) is that the Bible is applicable to our day and time, and to just about every culture. Not necessarily in what it says, but in the broader outline, in "the heart behind" whatever is said. We may not need to wash the feet of others - but we should be happy to carry out acts of service, especially menial ones, for those in need - and not to exalt ourselves and expect others to serve us.

If anyone choses to debate Mike on his post above, the third in this thread, I posted his post in its entirety in Doctrinal. Otherwise, I know what this will turn into. Though, maybe, it could turn into something interesting. I'm sure we've had this debate a time or two, and he doesn't need to derail this thread, as well. And he isn't brilliant at starting his own thread. So there, Mike, I've started it for you, and you can run it from now on. Now back to the regularly scheduled programme.

Mike said this in response to a recent thread I started: I'm sure we've had thread concerning this, but if anyone wants to debate this with Mike, here it is.

It's a question that we get asked a lot and is the reason, or perhaps excuse, that people give for not believing in God. There's an answer, but it's not a quick answer and hard to explain in a few minutes to someone who's quite possible half-drunk and incapable of remembering. Your answer isn't quite clear. Are you saying that "God loves YOU" is a close second? Or that "God is light and light ONLY" is a close second? The latter is a hard concept to be able to explain, since what is "light" and what is "dark" can be unclear. Is a prolonged drought, or a plague of locusts good or bad, light or dark? If you're a farmer, it's very dark. If you're an invading force, it might be light because it drives inhabitants off the land. Anyway, the question is not what is light or dark. It's: No doubt T-Bone, OldSkool and cman have interesting perspectives on this one. With Bolshevik having quite a different perspective.

Probably is NOT "the Bible is the revealed word and will of God" as so pronounced by VPW. (And that probably wasn't *his* original thought anyway.) Instead, I'd venture to suggest that it's simply "God loves YOU." In my work out on the streets with homeless people and with young pleasure seekers, it is truly astonishing how many don't know this. And they may have been going to church for years, decades. God loves each and every one of us. May not love what we do, but loves us nonetheless. What would you say is the greatest secret in the world today?

I wondered that, too.

And welcome, Logicisgreatstuff. Sounds like you're a second generation TWI kid. Tell us a bit about yourself and your time both in and out of TWI in the Open>New Members spot.

We really need a "ha ha" icon here, not just an arrow or a heart. Completely sympathise with you, Logic, in your confused writing sessions. Living in the real world and also in TWI-world is great for learning to develop a split personality.

Oh my. We appear to be in a slightly cynical morning today. Maybe due to lack of sleep from a sore shoulder. I must exercise my free will, to be cheerful, and try not to pi$$ off my clients today.

Of course, you're assuming that "free will" is a good thing. (Aren't you?) Is it? We have some amount of free will within parameters. Those parameters are important. Perhaps you should be exploring the parameters. Which are partly cultural norms, partly because of our genetic makeup, partly inbuilt fight-or-flight and other autonomic responses, partly - well, who knows what. Perhaps you are exploring the parameters. But you can't escape them. And does it matter? To whom? And why?

When I did my research paper, the first draft was, IMHO, pretty good. It contained no Wayspeak because it covered areas that TWI rarely ventured into. Stylistically, my paragraphs had a bit of an opening sentence, Bible verse (usually from the OT), and a light sort of exposition. I was using the verses, however, as building blocks to my conclusion, not in a show-off way but to present my case. First draft got sent back. I hadn't included enough references to PFAL materials. (That's because there wasn't anything relevant in PFAL, dummy!) Second draft, well, finished version: I had had to rewrite to include various references to PFAL material that wasn't really relevant and added nothing. This version was well received, surprisingly widely read among the head honchos, got quite a few compliments from unexpected sources. I found a copy of my (haha) research paper a few months ago. I read it. It is, actually, good stuff. Huh, the additional bits that I had to stick in - stick out like sore thumbs. Made me wince. But: finished version matched their "style guide" and so was deemed acceptable. Looking at it again, I'd do it a little differently now, not the research work (which was so entirely my own work) but the way it was put together. And it could well be much longer because it was a fascinating subject. Certainly, there wouldn't be any Way jargon or turn of phrase. Oh, what was it, you ask? "Judicial Answers of Truth in the Ministry of Jesus Christ." [I remembered the title as being a little different, but I'm looking at the document itself.) Good ole Craig himself gave me that topic. Every answer, every OT quote, that Jesus gave was checked back in its OT context, reading back and forth over all related chapters, and then reading other related areas, Bible books, etc. Started as a word study of the word Apokrinomai [remember those word studies?] and exploded out from there. So you can see: mostly OT stuff - and a good look at the gospels. So you can see why there was so little quotable material in PFAL. After all, it wasn't necessary to study the Man himself, nor his lifestyle, his application of scriptures to living in his everyday world, his understanding, exposition and demonstration of the scriptures/ Torah/ Pentateuch/ temple teaching available to him. We're so very smart now that the gospels are irrelevant, so don't need to be covered in PFAL, just given a passing glance from time to time. The reality of "It is Written" applies to PFAL materials only. Rant over! Oh, and yeah. As a retired lawyer, I was used to considering carefully, looking at lots of relevant material, and producing an opinion, letter, document that noted all salient points and led to a clear conclusion. I knew how to write: for a court, for a lay client, for other professionals. And formally, for my dissertation - my degree. Not to mention, informally just for pleasure. But writing Way-style....errggggghhhhhh. Children's stories are better written.

Interesting old thread this. I was going to include an extract from their digital WayRag but it's not set up well and is in any event so difficult to read. At random I chose an article, and found a paragraph. So: they say what they want to say, reasonably intelligibly. Then say it again. Then a Biblical quotation. Then, take an English word (an ordinary, nothing-special type of word, from that Bible quote, and say "this is the Greek word xxxx" and expound what they claim is the meaning, both then and now. Then virtually re-write the opening sentence of the paragraph. Write four pages like this. Hey presto! End of article. Whatever they said, it could have been said more clearly in half a page. Not four pages.

Doncha mean, the backroom boys (and girls) who make the pastries, and fetch the coffee, and wash the cups? I guess, those who fetch the coffee and other tasties, too. Thanks, everyone (even if a few bits of crockery get broken in the process).