Twinky

Here's another one, Gloriavale, in New Zealand. All males wear the same style of clothes, all females wear long blue dresses, all living done in common - communal meals, very little private life. It's run by a small elite group of "shepherds." The rank and file are allowed "holidays" - a week spent on the property. The usual allegations of sexual abuse from some people; definitely the same coercive control. They've been investigated several times by various govt agencies, who've come up with nothing (= closed ranks of the insiders). But escapees tell a different story. https://gloriavale.org.nz/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloriavale_Christian_Community I feel very sorry for those trapped in this small cult. I suppose every nation, every country, has a few charismatic but abusive wannabees, who can attract the lost or searching.

All of the above, T-Bone. Thanks for posting.

Not my favourite movie (I don't like Jack Nicholson), but the next clip analyses Nurse Ratched and how she keeps control of her patients. Now that indeed appears to be an allusion to a cultic experience. (Some here might feel there are allusions to Nurse Rosalie.)

I was sent to Gunnison for the summer camps. It's a lovely place. Camps are run two back-to-back, then a week off, then more camps. Between the two back-to-back, there's a really swift clean (people must leave by about 10 or 11am, and new arrivals come after, what, 4pm?) and then the middle week is a more thorough clean and other work that may be required at the camp is also carried out. It's quite intense. It was specially intense for me, because I was finishing my - wojja call it, paper, dissertation, project - during the early part of the time. The two camp weeks are full-on, with in rez Corps working from very early in the morning to quite late at night, with serving food (breakfast) at one end, and taking care of younger children at the other end. So you'd think that after the thorough cleaning, there'd be a little downtime, wouldn't you? Then you'd think wrongly. I recall one day off, or maybe afternoon off, when some of us (one must have had a car) went into the mountains somewhere or other and took a hike on a ridge. Lush and lovely scenery; I so wanted to be out in it!! Come to think of it - that might have been in the short period before the family camps started. Another time, but working, I had to drive a vehicle to pick up or take some campers to a glorious river someplace where (low-level whitewater) rafting or some boating was taking place. Gorgeous place, sparkling river, set in a delightful wooded area. I must have been there for all of five minutes before I had to return to a job that could have been done much better with an automatic watering system. How I wanted to be in the river (like the Corps Coordinator) helping people have a fun time! I relished getting up in the mornings (especially in my first couple of days, when most in-rez Corps hadn't yet arrived) - standing on the steps of the log cabin I lived in, looking out at the mountains, breathing in the fresh air; I looked forward to exploring just a small part of those mountains. I'm continuing to look forward to that... never going to happen. Being at Gunnison is a bit like being in a beautiful cage. You can look out, but you can't get out. You can see what's available out there, but you can't access it. Look, but don't touch. Maybe the forthcoming "intense" course in May (run, people, run. Far and fast! Get away!!) will build in a little downtime - river rafting might not be possible, but a hike in the hills could easily be made available.

Glad you made that clear, Mark. I did think your original comment was a very strange thing for anyone to say!!

Not entirely sure what you have said that is either loving or constructive; but critical, yes! And yes, there is a relationship between GSC's arrival, and LCM's departure. Have you read the court documents detailing his depravity with a certain person's wife? No? Okay, look about and you'll find out why these events coincide. Even now, there are people who have been "out" of TWI for many years (decades, some), who are so traumatized that they are only now addressing some issues. And the people who post (or at least look in) regularly are the ones who hear and understand - in a way that many outsiders or still-Waybrained, appear unable to recognise. If you don't find it helpful to be here, you've no obligation to stay.

I don't know whether to hope you're right, Skyrider, and that some decent folk get purged; or to hope that you're wrong and that decent folk get to stay, and stay decent (if unenlightened) folk and sort-of respected for who they are. Maybe somebody local could paint up a GSC billboard and position it nicely on an approach road to Camp Gunnison .

That's an awfully big assumption to make. How can you possibly know who is or has been active in another (another?) church? How do you know about other peoples' involvement with other Christians? Look harder, read more carefully: I think you might be surprised. Especially as you say this of yourself: Just don't think that because you gave up, others also did.

Yes, Rocky, I thought that's probably what you meant, really. A good historical novel can in fact convey so much, and much more easily than a textbook. The principal character(s) can be set in various situations, and present different views of what's going on and how it affects the general populace. In particular right now, I'm thinking of Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth and others in that series - it discusses cathedral building, different styles, what works and what doesn't, all from the mediaeval perspective of a journeyman builder who goes on to become a master builder; his relationships, powerplays of the rich and famous, the wars of the times, and such like. So yes. If your author fleshes out what was going on in Jesus's times, with the international and national conflicts, different expectations, etc, it should be a really good read.

Hard to have "meticulous research" when we don't know anything...!

Love the way they're making the first a special class from 1-9 May, so that participants don't have to take two weeks off work. So thoughtful!

And he says all that with a great big smile on his face, and something of a chuckle in his voice. Love the way he says, TWI wants to help people become debt-free. I bet they have no idea of preparing a proper budget (a genuine budget to help a needy family that can hardly feed and clothe the kids), making arrangements with creditors for full or partial repayment on terms, what state or other benefits the people might be entitled to; and getting effective help from charities, power companies and other like organisations. I have helped hundreds of people become debt-free and I love doing it. I just don't need to shout about it. I've seen folks come into my office, crying and weighed down with worry, and clutching bags of unopened letters from creditors and maybe courts, fearful of the knock on the door and of answering the phone; quite literally sick with worry. No food in the cupboard, and with what little money there is left, making the choice between "heat" and "eat" (and exactly who eats) - a difficult choice, in midwinter. And I've seen those same people walk out a couple of hours later, still crying, but this time from joy - because someone listened, cared enough, and helped them make a real plan to get out of their debts, calmed their creditors, and gave them a fresh start. Oh, and also some food vouchers or a Foodbank pass, and perhaps also a little money on their utility bill so that there could be a little warmth in the home. I don't see where TWI has suddenly got the expertise to do that. TWI's idea is: give us your money because if you don't pay your dues to God, ie, TWI, God won't even spit in your direction (as if God ever spat on anyone!). Pay us and somehow your debts will magically go away. Yeah, right.

Such a frikkin ego trip, to say that. Though I don't remember it as "the ministry would fail" but more along the lines that "the word of God would be lost" or some such nonsense. Too long ago to be sure. When I heard whatever it was, it was a "Whaaaattttt?" moment - a red flag, really, but one of many I ignored. Immediately forgot about. But then, I had decent, giving, Christian parents as role models. My parents weren't denominational - dad went to the Anglican church, mum to the Methodist (when she could manage to). I couldn't see either of them losing their faith or their love for God. And dad didn't, to the end of his life; and Mum now 91 just gets stronger in her faith. r

The "1942 promise" didn't fail. No, not at all. Because there was no 1942 promise to fail.

That wouldn't take up much space, then.

You are entirely right that God works in small settings. Early commandments and instructions to the fledgling people of Israel include this: Deut 7:7 7The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples and if you read the early chapters of Deuteronomy (it's well worth the re-read), it's all about staying pure and close to the heart of God, rejecting falsehoods, and taking care of those who can't look after themselves. This tiny nation was to be an example to the rest of the world and to draw people by that example into knowing God, the God of love and not the god of hate, or of human sacrifice, or of nature or animal worship (or whatever else, you name it). We are all part of at least one community; we can impact that community. We don't have to make a big name for ourselves, but people will notice that "there's something different" about us. Many will have read Betsie ten Boom's works; whilst in a Nazi prison camp, she led people into Christian love and worship and even, at one point, thanked God for the fleas that infested their hut - because it kept the guards from harassing them (the guards were terrified of the fleas and the typhus they spread). That attitude of gratitude, and of service, makes for stand-out behaviour that can demonstrate God's love to others. It was the kindness and gentleness of my church, and its outward face to serve the local community, that drew me to it. It's helped and healed me from my TWI wounds. It helps and heals so many from debt, addiction, poverty - just by being there and offering help and solace. Right now, there's a lot of emphasis on giving out food parcels to needy people injured by CoVid restrictions on work or ability to go out. In school time, there's homework clubs - a quiet place where schoolkids can study, not in noisy households or on the end of the bed in a room shared with another child. We have action days when we organise skips to take away bulky refuse within the area around my church - a poorer community, with more than its share of single parent families and cheap social housing. we have social events that are free: Needles and Natter; a lunch club (donations welcome) that anyone can attend; Mums & Toddlers, where (often single) mums can go for a coffee and cake after dropping older kids off at school. We do lots to help. And we sing and offer services, easy "classes" and the like, where people can come and learn more about God, Jesus, and living in love. We have a big impact, for a little congregation!

Most of us here know about that weird and confusing thing and especially the bit about relating to others in a religious way. But you can use that to challenge those who are more conformist. Do enjoy some - interesting! - discussions. (In fact, some of those discussions might even be here in the Cafe!) Anyway, sit down for a while and have something to eat and drink.

Hey, T-Bone, I said "almost" - d'ya know, I don't care about them enough to even want to bother razzing them up a bit.

Hey, they even have a "Contact Us" form on one of their pages. Almost worth giving it a try (with false information and a temp email address) to see what the outcomes might be.

I liked this quote from the blurb: And therein is the challenge.

Agreed, your conclusion re Weirwille. Haven't read Kierkegaard, but have heard from some of my church leaders of him, and they like his challenge to live authentically.

What's usually said is that whatever weather the (eastern) US gets, we in the UK get two weeks later. We don't often get whirlwinds or tornados (though there was one last week, great waterspouts photo'd), but we can get very heavy rain after the long travel of high winds over the Atlantic. The Gulf Stream comes up from the Caribbean, drifts through the ocean, and kisses the west coast of Ireland and of England and Scotland. So much so, would you believe, that there are tropical gardens in Scotland because of the warmth carried by this ocean current (not to mention the abundance of rains that also come over).

That's it exactly, T-Bone. Having worked as a matrimonial lawyer for some years (not my fave bit of law) - I have to say that the no.1 reason for marriage breakdown is lack of communication between the parties. Not being able to say how you feel/think/want about something (whether nice or a potential difficulty) and/or not listening when your spouse tries to talk to you. Parties need to say honestly what they want to say and not leave it to the other person to guess/mind read/know by intuition or revelation; and the listener needs to listen and hear what's said, not just the words used. On "The Marriage Course" I think it's said that if you have a row with your spouse, do it holding hands. Reminds you that you are tied together and you need to pay attention to the other party.

Well, we're having a blustery time of it. Storm Ellen on Sunday or was it Monday, and Storm Francis today. Probably not as bad as you suffer in the southern US, but dangerous in the coastal areas, tall lorries (trucks) blown over, and the Severn roadbridge closed to all traffic (the Severn estuary is a notorious windfunnel). No rain yet (in my area); my mum had flooding under her front door (lives 130 miles away). Apparently just been upgraded to "danger to life" status. A storm last week caused a landslip in Scotland which unfortunately a train ran into, derailed all parts of the train (only 6 carriages) and the motor unit burst into flames, 3 people killed, others injured - happily only 9 people aboard the train at the time.

It's an interesting point you raise, JJ. There is a place for "tough love" and sometimes it can be loving to leave someone to take the consequences of wrong actions. BUT in TWI it was constant "tough love," constant "vigilance" for "spiritual errors" in the fantasy world that was HQ. Doncha love the way that you could get a face-melting from - well, I got several from LCM, who was a master at it (the manipulative b@st@rd) - and then, shortly afterwards, you'd get a visit from a Corps bro or sis, who was sent lovingly to see that you were all right. In reality, I think this checker-upper person was probably a spy to see that you weren't "harbouring a grudge" or preparing to do anything that might reflect badly on TWI, like mouthing off to other Corps members or to friends and family. TWI was very keen on spying on the in-rez Corps. Just keeping a spiritual check on them, no doubt they'd say. No. Frikkin' spying.