Twinky

Thanks, WW. Saved me the trouble. Apologies for the accidental strikethrough. I can't get rid of it. Unintentional

It's your hard-earned money that these people are spending. Yes - give locally, where you can see what the church is doing. Give generously - but give wisely. Also give to genuinely worthwhile charities - you should be able to check out a charity to see its status and effectiveness - there are websites dedicated to assessing charities' effectiveness. There are very good charities that won't score highly on such assessment sites, so find out at a local level what they do. Part of my personal "scoring" level is the things I am thankful for (good, free, healthcare, clean water etc) and give to charities supporting those aims in impoverished areas or countries. No prizes for giving to a fraudster, dropping dollars into a money sink, or impoverishing oneself to enrich another who is already plenty rich. These prosperity gospel preachers are in it for themselves only, and are taking the Lord's name in vain. You'll notice Jesus didn't travel by jet plane - or even "express donkey."

Hilarious, T-Bone.

Of course, you can still subscribe for CDs and DVDs: The Way International News and Events | The Sunday Teaching Service—Available in Your Own Home Huh. They always did charge for the CDs or audio tapes or whatever they were. I could understand that they might want to cover postage. But to charge for online?? Gosh! Every other church I know does livestream AND usually makes available on a YouTube channel - FREE!! Anybody can look in. Hey, for starters, here's last Sunday's service. Part live, part pre-recorded. But hey! Things will be back to all-live very soon. (1) 16 May 2021 - 10.30 service at Holy Trinity Combe Down - YouTube. We are one church in four different locations; get a great welcome at each one. And guess what?! Our livestream is available to people all over the world (we have one regular joiner from Spain), and people up and down the UK join us. Now we are allowed back to worship in our buildings, we've found that we have new people joining us in person... because they found our streamed service and wanted more of that, in reality in their lives.

I just found this: The Way International News and Events | Digital Sunday Teaching Service Subscriptions

So I tossed something new into the mix. You clearly didn't think that worth discussing. Mike, you might get less flak if you started discussing, and stopped obsessing. Remember 2 Cor 5 "Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ," (Can I say that again? for CHRIST. Not for a class, not for any other individual) and ... ... (2 Cor 6) We have spoken freely to you, Mike, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also, or, as Authorised Version (KJV) puts it, Be ye enlarged. Be enlarged by not being locked into your old thinking, but be enlarged by God's abounding love and grace. Learn to experience that and grow way beyond what you were taught, by letting God lead and teach you. I am glad that you learned something from PFAL. So did I. So did many here. But we don't limit ourselves simply to what's in PFAL but take the totality of God's (GOD'S) word, to learn more about God. Some of that totality is found on lips other than VPW's; some indeed from people of very different backgrounds from what might be familiar to you (you seem to have found some in dance and in rock music). All of it, God's word, manifests in action, in doing things that show God's love to the world. Then, when you preach here, you may find your words have more power, because they're energised by you in action, honed by God in action in your actions and words. No class, in any thing at all, is of itself of value, if it doesn't lead to doing something with it.

Thing about a "class" (any class) is that it should ultimately become invisible. It should become a basic instruction - about anything - and one builds upon it, with experience. For instance: I know where I did my legal studies. I know what classes I took: land law, constitutional law, tort, etc etc. I studied law for three years for my Bachelor's degree, then did my Law Society finals (a really intense year) then did my legal apprenticeship ("articles") for another two years. Then, I was admitted to the Roll as a lawyer. And I practised and got better at applying the law, and finding new law to fit different situations. But what I learned, in which class, well, sometimes I can say and most often I can't. The real learning isn't in whatever classes I took, of varying levels of depth and complexity, but it's in the application. Mrs Smith, getting a divorce, doesn't care where I learned matrimonial law, but she does care about custody of the kids, whether she gets a good settlement, my being able to read her husband's company's accounts (and discern less-than-legit entries therein); what to do when husband assaults her or steals property or badmouths her; and so on. Which is lotsa different classes, and not necessarily interlinked in the teaching. That's lifelong learning, basics plus updates plus a lot of experience, understanding, thoughtfulness. And learning scripture is about that. No good unless applied, and no-one cares where you learned it as long as you apply it, and then learn to apply it better next time. There is so much more to learn as set out in the Bible than is ever covered in PFAL. Of course!!

I think Mike has left the building (again).

In the same way that "it takes a village to raise a child," it takes a whole congregation to raise - each other! We are to have the humility to consider others more worthy, and to learn from them; to let them mentor us. In the same way, we also are examples and mentors to others; always bear that in mind. A Prayer Coordinator in a Christian group talked to us about the "smorgasbord of ways to pray" - some like to sit or stand, some like corporate and some private prayer; some sing, doodle, draw, etc. What about the smorgasbord of "acting out" Christ? You know Jesus on this earth had lots of different ways to interact with people, to match "where they were coming from" - so watch, and learn from other people.

Mike, I really thought you were going somewhere with this. Because then, and now, we should all be looking for people who are demonstrating the love ofG od (if you like, "the Christ in them") . I thought perhaps you were being honest in seeking mentors. But then you say: Please, Mike. Understand that Christ is bigger than PFAL. To find a mentor to "act out" Christ, widen your search. Look at lives of others: Here's Phil 2:3 in Amplified: Amplified Bible Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit [through factional motives, or strife], but with [an attitude of] humility [being neither arrogant nor self-righteous], regard others as more important than yourselves. If you are only looking at one group of people, one faction - are you not in direct contradiction to what this verse says? In every translation, we are urged to ESTEEM/ REGARD/ CONSIDER (etc) OTHERS as MORE IMPORTANT than ourselves. You can take that as an individual context, or in a group context. Who should you esteem more important? Who should TWI esteem more important? Seek mentors from other backgrounds. Look at how, say, Mother Teresa "acted out" Christ; Martin Luther King in his calls for social justice; Jon Bon Jovi, or Bono, if you like. Look at churches in other countries; the persecuted Christian church in Syria, China, most Muslim-dominated countries, elsewhere; how do the people there live? What can you learn from their examples? Go to an outgoing church near where you live, and see how they practice what they preach. Talk to people there. You are more than welcome, should you ever come to the UK, to come to my church to see what we do. For a little congregation of maybe a solid 40 members, my church cooks about 50 meals a week and gives out to vulnerable people in the community; also gives them food parcels. This weekend we are having a StACCtion day: our little church hires 3 skips for the local community to dump old junk, so as to keep the neighbourhood looking nice. We show the area that we love them and want the best for the people. They are drawn by the love we show; many now are interested in our offering. In lockdown - our congregation has grown! After the StACCtion day, I am going to volunteer at a mass vaccination centre in this city. I am not scheduled for this, but my fellow church member has to go to help his father who will be recovering from an operation (helping his dad is great Christian practice) so he asked me to sub for him (that's some of my great Christian practice). Are we as individuals and as a congregation "acting out" Christ enough for you? Or would you like more information about the many other things we do? Probably the best mentors are actually those who have risen above the traditional teaching of their churches, throwing off doctrinal shackles, and living more purely according to the great heart of the teachings of the bible and in particular the NT.

I know some seriously smart people, Mike. Like, seriously. Theologians (and yes, he's a respected international expert), linguists and English teachers, and others whose livelihood depends on words. Bullinger had some serious creds, too, and an intense background in Hebrew and Greek. I don't know if he made up these FoS, but if nobody else has heard of them... I wonder... Of course, if a clever preacher from Ohio (and a non-academician) knows better... I'd have more confidence in that preacher if he understood tenses in English verbs, even the more simple English tenses that I know I learned in primary school and developed an understanding of in secondary school... but that preacher doesn't understand simple verb construction at all so I genuinely doubt his comprehension of more complex FoS.

I think he invented a lot of his FoS - not all of them. I have talked with academicians, one a very respected, genuinely published theologian with mighty tomes to his name, and questioned them about whether xxx FoS fits with what they're saying about yyy in the Bible. Guaranteed blank looks; they've never heard of the FoS xxx.

Please don't put words in my mouth (or words on my posts!), Mike. I asked an honest question. An honest answer would be nice. Now that is so important. Especially for me, right now. Such a lot going on regarding people around me, and their "stuff" impacts negatively on me. I need to remember God's abundant blessings and that God has always "come through" for me - though not necessarily at the time I think it's necessary. And often, not in the way I expect. There is "being anxious for nothing" and "casting all your care on Him - and then, there's leaving it there - and that's the hard part. So did you learn anything useful? That you care to share?

Just to be clear, Mike, that's three things I'm asking you to comment on. Might be easiest if you tackle them separately.

Mike, what have you learned from your last few years? What specifically have you learned from PFAL that you didn't learn from the Bible itself? It's good that you're hanging out with other people. How loving, kind, patient, and giving, are these people you hang out with now? Apart from the Deadheads, are you hanging out with any genuine, practising, Christians, from churches and other organisations in your area? How do you see Christ working out in their lives? What do they do that exemplifies Christ to the wider population (rather than debating)? I have a hard time seeing Jack Nicholson as Jesus. He loves playing nutters, weirdos, crazies. True, not so much in Cuckoo's Nest, where he's the sane character among nutters, but he's still weird. If I see his name on a movie cast list, that's one movie I won't be watching. And you might remember, in Cuckoo, Nurse Ratched (whom no doubt you would correspondingly see as the devil) wins. She overcomes, and gets the Nicholson character lobotomised. There's no "resurrection"-type scene, no recovery, for the Nicholson character.

Hello Mike. I've kinda missed you round here. Could always rely on you to make a point that would stir up Cafe denizens. Was wondering what had happened to you. You went away to study PFAL more deeply, I think. Well, no desire from me to study PFAL. Oh, I wish you could read it in the original! Maybe try deep-reading the two principal books that VPW plagiarised? I doubt TWI is really "moving back to the original PFAL class." Far too dated.

Be strong, Annio. Enjoy your new church, check out its safeguarding policy, and be bold to speak out if you see something that's dodgy.

Bizarre, T-Bone.

You still have your WC mug, T-Bone? And the PFAL book?? And a green card??? What are you - a cult-head??

I don't know about symbols, but the slogan The Word of God is The Will of God makes me want to run away fast. Can't stand it. I am not sure that even now I can cope with the Bible being called "The Word o God." Parts of it are clearly not the will of God, and some parts have been added in - and some omitted from some versions. The expression "the Corps" also got me running away. It's been hard to overcome - especially since my mum has now joined the Salvation Army and its officers and more dedicated followers are known as the Corps. (Happily, they do seem a dedicated-to-the-Lord lot, and do a lot of good work in the community. Totally different from that other "corps.") Lots of other symbols too. And buzz words. There's a whole thread here somewhere concerning that.

What a gruesome report. I feel sorry for these poor beguiled people. I pray they'll come to their senses, and that this wretched abusive "minister" is quickly made to face justice for her behaviour.

It's easy to look from across the pond and think how bizarre all this Q stuff is. Very hard for people who have "lost" relatives to this online cultish thing. Just as it was hard for our relatives when we disappeared into TWI. Hopefully there will be post-Q help sites set up by escapees.

Yet another all too familiar story. Sad. I hope that the people she names (esp PB) don't take it upon themselves to sue her for libel. Or set TWI's lawyers onto her, to gag her.

Would be good if they can keep their own organisation clean. The UK branch of Zacharias's organisation has already distanced itself and has adopted a new name. However, I think there will always be predators - this abusive culture isn't new, and has been going on centuries (millennia?) and will continue for more centuries. I follow with suspicion a cult in a remote South Island of New Zealand area, and rejoice every time there is a family that escapes. It's in many ways like the communal culture of TWI, mixed with forced "kibbutz" type living. The people choose to live there - but it's a choice with no alternatives. They've little idea of life outside their cult. And yes, there is sexual abuse as well as spiritual abuse.

I read about him in the Church Times (an Anglican newspaper) some weeks ago. sad. Same sh1t, different faces. I'll check out the video later.