Twinky

Well, instead of piling onto Allan, whose views this group is unlikely to change, does anyone want to discuss what they understand of the relative efficiencies of the different vaccines? You US folks probably don't get any of the AstraZeneca stuff (being as it's not made in the US, patriotism and all that). I think you go for Pfizer and Moderna. There are Russian vaccines as well, but their effectiveness has been questioned. Nonetheless, "Sputnik" is in use in dozens of countries. China has developed two vaccines. Some are single-dose; most are double-dose; some must be kept very cold, others kept at fridge temperature or maybe even room temp, which make them more suitable for developing countries with less reliable cooling/freezing abilities. Single dose might be good for very scattered populations where it takes days to walk to a vax centre. I found this graph, showing situation at July 2021, which I found rather interesting. Didn't know there were so many different types. Don't know if they are all WHO approved; doubtful.

Thanks Allan......for stating your position. THiS is what a *discussion forum* is all about. Something that twi NEVER allowed. What Skyrider said. Hope that calms things down a bit, all round. I don't agree with your decision, but I respect it if that is your basis. Your choice.

Interesting?? Allan, you are pushing your PoV and pushing aside others' PoV. If you want people to understand your PoV, please express yourself in your own words as to why you have a different view. As I perceive your reasoning, your "God-given immune system" is sufficient to protect you. (And, therefore, it presumably protects you from passing anything at all onto all those you come into contact with.) I am wondering if you have ever had a common cold (virus), sore throat (various causes), infection of any kind, fever, gyppy tummy, rubella, shingles (you're still a bit young for that), or any other thing wrong with you - or any of the people around you. If you cut yourself, do you wash the injury with soap and water? Put a plaster on it? Or just leave it to your immune system to deal with the open wound? Do you wash your hands before food preparation? Especially cold foods - salads? Or does, say, E.coli take one look at you and flee in terror, because of your immune system? (Somehow, I don't think so!) It seems to me that the corollary of "I have a great immune system and therefore I won't get this disease badly" (you said you've already had it twice) is, for anyone who gets seriously ill (including your own loved ones): "You don't have a great immune system, and therefore you ..." - what? don't believe God? - which comes perilously close to victim-blaming. (LCM style: pointing finger, screaming at top of voice: "XYZ stepped out of God's hedge of protection!!!") There are plenty of scientists, worldwide, who think something more than a God-given immune system is required. Some of those scientists are probably Christians, too. And some of those who have died are Christians. Please don't blame them for having fallible human bodies. Heck, your own brother-in-law died of covid complications. So. In your own words, why do you have a different view from the body of international scientists, clinicians, hospital workers, statisticians and suchlike? What can you say to convince me that these people are all wrong? What can you say to convince my friend Rebecca, a nurse in ICU, a devout Christian, that what she sees with her own eyes - isn't true?

Us and them, Allan? I simply do not understand why people refuse to do something that's pretty safe, costs nothing, and helps many. Most of those refusing have quite silly arguments, which do not stand up to close scrutiny or logical reasoning. I have heard caution, uncertainty, and can understand those people. I have also outright lies spouted as if they were absolute truth; those people I can't understand at all. Is that a serious comment, or tongue in cheek? If serious, I really challenge you on this particular experimental technology, when you refuse other technology that is now proven to reduce risks.

Specially for you, Allan. Covid-19 Australia: In the ICU where only Maria is vaccinated, others die in disbelief | Stuff.co.nz

The UK has indeed approved a covid-19 pill just this week. And yes, at this stage IT IS EXPERIMENTAL. But it is expected to help in the recovery of people who already have the early signs of the illness - whether vaxed or not. It is not instead of the vaccine; it's not a preventive; it's to help those who have already got the illness. Molnupiravir: First pill to treat Covid gets approval in UK - BBC News As it's in its early stages and is still somewhat experimental, can we expect vax naysayers to refuse this new treatment? Because it's so new, hasn't been around long enough to be tested, etc? Just because it's not injected direct into the body doesn't mean that it won't have effects on the body (indeed, having effects is the very purpose!) or that it can't hurt the body. (Anti-Polio drugs, for example, aren't injected now; but taken orally but are just as effective.) If the non-vaxed with the illness are offered this pill, it would be very hypocritical of them to accept it based, on the very arguments that they've used to avoid being jabbed.

You mean, like scientists working their God-given mental abilities devising effective vaccines?

For those interested, this is an article that popped into my newsfeed this morning. It's a summary of some scientific work just released: Scientist solve why some people die from Covid and not others | Evening Standard And for those who prefer it from the horse's mouth, it's here. I confess I haven't yet read this longer, very technical article, but it looks reputable, and cites many sources. The publishing journal "Nature" has been established for >100 years and has a good reputation. I leave the article to the naysayers to cherrypick. Identification of LZTFL1 as a candidate effector gene at a COVID-19 risk locus | Nature Genetics

Not all "underlying health conditions" are obvious. Obesity, sure, but other things? Diabetes, maybe. Other things? Perhaps not; the "underlying condition" may only be discovered after the child has begun to suffer the serious illness. It appears only one child <16 has died in England in the first three months of 2020 - don't know about Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. Child mortality in England during the COVID-19 pandemic | Archives of Disease in Childhood (bmj.com) That doesn't count serious illness. I know several kids of that age or younger who have been quite poorly. I think it much better to concentrate on the bigger picture. Where there are high vaccination uptake rates - the UK, some US states, elsewhere in Europe - deaths and serious illness have gone down markedly. Where there are low uptake rates, deaths and serious illnesses are rising. Allan, you said you've had covid TWICE. That should prove to you that having covid DOESN'T confer sufficient immunity. Glad it's not seriously affected you; maybe a third time will. (Remind me: what did U*u die of? Covid complications, was it? And he was a pretty fit chap.) You should be thankful that you live in a country that has a high uptake of vaccination (so that should protect you quite a lot from actually getting the illness, though not from the effects if you catch it again) and you have great medical facilities to help anyone who does get it and has serious problems. And yes, it appears some covid complications may be very long-lasting, with permanent damage caused to some organs. A life lived, a full life, but not necessarily quite the life the person wanted. We don't know enough about that yet. I know two people who have post-polio syndrome. Retirement age, but not quite as they wished. One has breathing difficulties, the other has damage to her leg, which looks as though it's been put together with all the joints the wrong way round and she walks with the most peculiar rolling gait. She knows that's PPS.

I thought as well as arguing the current pandemic, we might discuss the new style of vaccines, which clearly have a useful role in the future. While nobody wanted a pandemic to "guinea pig" the planet with this technology, it does seem that the mRNA type has been very effective and one can only hope that it will go on to be equally effective with other diseases, for which it is also being tried and tested. Cancer, for one.

Looks great, Socks. My one attempt at sourdough didn't work too well. I was given the starter dough by an Irish lass who used it lots, so I don't doubt the starter, just my ability with it. Might try again some day but I like making bread with my breadmaker and also have access to a source of lots of free bread (all delicious). So not making my own much at the moment.

Please don't be one of them, Allan.

I knew them. Wonder where they are now? Do I care? Probably not.

I did not say that, Allan. I said, deaths for any reason within 28 days of a positive covid test. There are other deaths outside 28 days that can be attributed to covid, where someone has been hospitalised / in ICU for a while. And I invited you to look at the correlation between vaccination (rising fast) and deaths (falling fast). It's plain for anyone to see that there's a huge reduction in the number of deaths, hospitalisations etc, in the vaccinated cohort. All medical staff will tell you that the hospitalised ones in the most serious condition are UNvaccinated. ICU is stuffed with naysayers. It's accepted that some vaxed people, those with particular susceptibilities, may get covid but not as severely.

Think I got involved late 1985. Witnessed to by a WOW at a party. The Goldbergs were around at the time, but I don't remember any other names.

Oh, and Allan: do have a listen to the Beeb programme I noted above. I think you'll find it interesting.

Allan, feel free to explore this page: UK Summary | Coronavirus (COVID-19) in the UK (data.gov.uk) Look in particular at the sidebar at left. You will see "Vaccinations" and "Death." Although they do not correlate exactly, you can see that Deaths have declined markedly, as the number of people vaccinated has risen. FYI "Deaths" is deaths for any reason within 28 days of a +ve coronavirus test. So a death would be included even if a person had been run over by a bus, charged by a cow, stabbed by a burglar, or fell off a ladder, and died - if they'd tested positive within 28 days. Bit nuts really, but you can see the trend.

Rather than listen to (haha) "experts" on the internet who know next to nothing and are inarticulate though passionate (raucous?) in their repudiation of the scientific research, you might like to listen to this gentle British scientist who, with a team, has been carefully researching and sequencing covid-19 and its variants. I do hope you can get into this link. Every edition is an interesting programme, and this is very relevant. BBC Radio 4 - The Life Scientific, Sharon Peacock on hunting pandemic variants of concern

Got it done! Pfizer (first two were AstraZeneca). All well - my arm isn't even sore where stabbed!

Going for my booster jab tomorrow. Yes, I believe God to keep me safe - and to keep others safe. I believe I have a great natural immune system, to which loads of fresh fruit and veg, exercise, and a healthy lifestyle contribute. I also believe God gave me the common sense to take reasonable precautions. I continue to wear a mask in shops, etc, and gel my hands wherever possible (even though these actions are no longer legally required) - and (though I'm needle-phobic), I get necessary inoculations. No way am I giving this virus to any of the many very elderly people that I know. (Don't want it myself, either.)

Can't recall anyone of that name. Where did he live? I knew mostly the Birmingham believers.

I think the new technology with mRNA is, as you say, going to open the door to new solutions. Despite some saying it's new and untested, it isn't actually that "new" in that research has been carried out for at least 20 years on just this type of vaccine, and in fact I understand that a SARS vaccine was developed using this technology in around 2003. SARS is a coronavirus, similar to but just a little different from the current version that is so devastating. My vaccines were both AstraZeneca. There have been a few incidents of death caused by blood clotting; not many. Of course that is a sad loss to the families of the deceased, and I don't belittle that. However, those people may well have died anyway, whether covid related or not. And the fact is that millions of people have been vaccinated with AZ and they've had no problems at all. I can certainly speak for the UK, where there has been a mix of AZ (traditional method) and Pfizer (new mRNA method) and both have been extremely effective at preventing serious illness and especially death. Of those hospitalised, somewhat over 80% are unvaccinated; of the less than 20% vaccinated, they are rarely in the most serious condition or die. I will be getting a booster jab next week and that will be Pfizer. In the summer this year, I served as a volunteer vaccination steward in a mass vax centre, and in a couple of months we did 55,000 vaxes, all age groups. Many came in singing and dancing (I jest not; these were older people who got dressed up for this, their first outing in a year!); they were delighted at getting vaxed as a release from the lockdown that we enduring during the previous 12-15 months. We also had many walk-ups (often of younger people not yet eligible) just in case there was a little vaccine still available at the end of the session. I don't know what you have in mind to discuss, Bolshevik, but I really don't understand the vaccine-averse lot, who seem to listen to fantasy theories and not to people who actually know the science, or have seen outcomes in hospitals. I only know one person who refuses to get an anti-covid vaccine of any type, and he's into some weird ideas about other things as well. mRNA vaccines are also being developed to deal with various cancers. One might wonder if the vaccine-hesitant for covid might be equally as hesitant if they had an aggressive cancer and a new mRNA vax was likely to be the most successful way to treat that.

Yes, I encountered this document earlier today; it was linked to something more recent. But what kind of perversion is this? Lyle Jeffs’ estranged wife Charlene Jeffs describes a group of followers called “seed bearers.” “A seed bearer is an elect man of a worthy bloodline chosen by the Priesthood to impregnate the FLDS woman,” according to Charlene Jeffs’ petition. Under a new doctrine, “FLDS men are no longer permitted to have children with their multiple wives. That privilege belongs to the seed bearer alone,” the petition said. “It is the husband’s responsibility to hold the hands of their wives while the seed bearer ‘spreads his seed.’ In layman terms, the husband is required to sit in the room while the chosen seed bearer, or a couple of them, rape his wife or wives,” according to the document. It sounds like something out of "The Handmaid's Tale," with a bit of a twist. What kind of man lets, watches and abets his wife being raped by another man? And not only that, but: Warren Jeffs has withheld any relationships between husbands and wives, Brower said. Any touching between spouses outside rituals like these, even a simple handshake, can now be considered adultery in the church. Unbelievable. Unless one has also been in a cult.

Pretty extreme FLDS cultic abuse. I don't think things were quite this bad in TWI. What is it with some men? How can they (a) convince themselves that this is okay; and (b) convince others that this is okay. Court document: FLDS sect limits sex to 'seed bearers' | CNN