Twinky

Thanks, TBone.

Actually, this is what I asked about: "I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addiction to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). "The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr" Rohr, a Franciscan friar, posits that we are all addicted. But for all of us, our addiction is to sin, and we love to sin, it's an illness in us. He posits using the Twelve Steps to overcome our addiction to sin and self. Here is one version of the Christian 12 steps: The Christian 12 Step program and Biblical Principles, as used in Christian Rehab Centers for faith based 12 Step recovery programs around the world. STEP ONE is about recognizing our brokenness We admitted we were powerless over the effects of our separation from God – that our lives had become unmanageable I know nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out (ROMANS 7:18) STEP TWO is about the birth of faith in us Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (PHILLIPIANS 2:13) STEP THREE involves a decision to let God be in charge of our lives Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God – which is your spiritual worship. (ROMANS 12:1) STEP FOUR involves self-examination Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. (LAMANTATIONS 3:40) STEP FIVE is the discipline of confession Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed (JAMES 5:16) STEP SIX is an inner transformation sometimes called repentance Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up (JAMES 4:10) STEP SEVEN involves the transformation or purification of our character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1JOHN 1:9) STEP EIGHT involves examining our relationships and preparing ourselves to make amends Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Do to others as you would have them do to you. (LUKE 6:31) STEP NINE is the discipline of making amends Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. (MATTHEW 5:23-24) STEP TEN is about maintaining progress in recovery Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall. (1 CORINTHIANS 10:12) STEP ELEVEN involves the spiritual disciplines of prayer and meditation Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. (COLOSSIANS 3:16) STEP TWELVE is about ministry Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, as you also may be tempted. (GALATIANS 6:1) So, while it may be interesting to discuss the AA 12 Steps programme, the real thing we need to be discussing is the 12 steps we need to take in our own spiritual recovery: our addiction to self, ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions and possessions (things), or even people. For some here, it may mean considering our addiction to heresies, to false teachings, whether from TWI, or Roman Catholicism, or any other religious teaching. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and the God and creator of the universe. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and Jesus Christ, in all his sacrifice and glory. --We specifically need to consider our own addiction to anything or anyone that gets between us and living our lives in a spiritual manner, bearing witness to God in our words and our actions. As well as getting rid of ego and self-centredness, we need to examine ourselves and get rid of "nameable" things: hurt, jealousy, lack of forgiveness, thoughts of revenge, living in the past. We need to stop vaunting our own intellectual prowess (vaunting our knowledge above God). We need to stop being greedy, hoarding, and chasing money, etc (all of which show lack of dependence on God's provision). All of these, and many other things, can become "gods" to us, obsessions that get in the way of a true, living, spiritual reality. Instead, we need to consider who God says he is, and to try to deepen our own understanding of Him. This will involve our intellectual abilities - but always bring those back to understanding who and what God is, and what God requires of us. It involves our physical abilities - using what we have to do, to take actions in line with what God wants. That is what "being meek to the Word" means. The 12 steps, whether Rohr's Christian version, or AA's, or Drug Awareness, or any other entity's version, are only tools to help us on our spiritual journey. Too much debate on them, and the exact meaning of the words expressing the steps, veers off into an intellectual curiosity that distracts from actually paying attention and doing what those steps express, which is getting past our selves and into the freedom of our dependence on God.

Scary, isn't it! But I think Mike's talking about the AA Blue Book. Maybe for clarity it could be called AA-Blue to distinguish it from PFAL-Blue?

Great post, T-Bone. One worthy of being split off and reposted in part or whole as a separate thread on the power of prayer, or of redeemed life, or some such, rather than letting it get lost on this thread.

How big is TWI now? How many attend? Too big. Even if there were only the four directors - too big. Go find somewhere real, people. Leave this sham organisation.

"...given the pow treatment..........they were exposed to the illuminati tapes by myron cohen, and the tapes on music by the marx fella, etc.......they were tied together at points, kept locked up in heavy cardboard boxes which were pounded on from the outside all night, sleep deprived, exposed to heavy-handed interrogation techniques, blaringly loud tapes and music, told that the usa had been invaded and taken over by the russians, and, that they would be broken from standing on the word..." That's madness! Torture! Tied together? Locked up? Interrogated? What bloody ego trip was that? Hands up all those who think VPW would have survived something like that! Without complaining!

Do not mistake honesty for bitterness. Do not mistake people's recounting of what happened to them, as bitterness. I suppose we could ask you what your definition is (in this context) of "bitterness." But that would simply invite you to drag the topic even more off topic and away from a serious look at TWI.

Or is it rather, that YOU have no idea how to address the points people here have been presenting to you for well over a decade?

Interesting, huh, about who they want to come back. Ex-leaders. To lead others into the ditch. Not "Ex-members," who, with their money, have gone elsewhere. So who does TWI want? Just former Corps (the ones labelled DFA, or the ones labelled M&A?). Or are they after the ones who've set up splinter groups (so that they can hijack anything those people have already achieved - pinch "their" people, like they pinched Doop's and Heefner's)? What's interesting, if you think about the people here, is that there are plenty of ex-Corps from many decades. Could we all be welcome (cough)? Only those from corps 1-10? 10-16 (or whenever VPW died)? Those from the time of LCM's tenure? Later ones? We were all trained the same - yet differently. My experiences as later Corps aren't the same as those of, say, Skyrider, or earlier Corps. And yet all of us suffered significant indoctrination, and personal abuse, mental beating-up, etc, etc. Personally, I think it was much worse under LCM; it seems from what I've heard that the freedoms allowed by VPW were beyond imagining, in the post-fog reign of terror instigated by LCM.

Is precisely some of the people I work with. One way is to demonstrate by actions, not a thing TWI was very good at. Arguments? Huh? Who cares what answer you got? You get the answer by living the life. Your bit about "meekly learn" is straight out of the TWI playbook. DO NOT EVER try that one on me. The amount of abuse (that's ABUSE, ABUSE, ABUSE, that TWI meted out to so very many under the guise of them not being "meek," is beyond measure. Just shut it, Mike.

This popped up in my Facebook feed this morning and immediately I felt I had to share it with this group. Maybe there's someone here who really needs to hear this. Watch | Facebook (<5 mins) Don't let your life get paralysed by someone else's negativity.

Were neither Doop nor Heefner very well educated in the scriptures, then? I thought they were supposed to have their own powerful Christian ministries that VPW somehow hijacked? Were Doop and Heefner simple, untrained, but passionate believers, swayed by this ordained minister who showed interest in them?

His example served as an example of MRS WEIRWILLE staying together no matter what. Maybe she took her vows seriously ("till death us do part...") and doubtless in the 50s, 60s, 70s, it would have been harder and more socially disastrous for her to divorce him, than the other way about. Mrs W's role as enabler/ victim/ abusee/ whatever, has been debated here a few times. We'll never know. What we do know is that VPW's behaviour is totally out of order and has NO scriptural support whatsoever, but rather, much condemnation. Any of these ex Corps leaders who played around and had any sexual contact with any woman not his own wife was, and is, completely unsuitable for leadership.

Can someone explain to me how VPW managed to get Doop and Heefner to fall under his thrall? If these were such thriving ministries in their own right, why did they affiliate with him? Why both of them (since as I understand it, they were separate ministries anyway). What, did VPW lure one or both into "taking the class" and then demanding fealty forever after - not just of them, but of all their own following? Why didn't these other men stay affiliated in some way without getting badly enmeshed with TWI?

IMO stop referring to the "founding president" of TWI. At that time he was the only president. Not sure if it would be accurate to call the first and only, the "founding" prez, as if the corporation had existed longtime. Did he refer to himself as "founding prez"? Or just as "prez"? It would be accurate to call someone (anyone) the "founding" pres when there'd been at least one other pres. Let's call him the "floundering prez" or the "fondling prez" or if you prefer (and this is accurate like a hand in a vagina glove) the "fukking prez."

How did Wierwille gain control over his followers? That's easy. He taught some genuine (though plagiarised) Bible, taught some good, useful, interesting, stuff. And he was able to get away with it because either the victims were badly taught in churches they'd attended; or they'd not attended church before, didn't know much about God or the Bible; and in both cases this new course or class showed them something new. If you'd never heard stuff taught like this before, and been shown Bible verses to back up what was being said, this was something new. If you're hungry, you'll eat anything. And then, you were undoubtedly surrounded by a bunch of really happy, enthusiastic young people who genuinely appeared to love God, believe God, and had passion in their lives. Who doesn't want to be around enthusiastic and happy people? So if this is the only place you've heard what seems to be genuine Bible teaching, where you haven't heard things like this before, where you've become disillusioned with the church(es) you've been to previously where you hate stuff that isn't doctrinal, or where practices don't line up with what you perceive of God - why wouldn't you stick around? Many people here, and others that I've known, have said that they were delivered from the idolatry of Catholicism. But they might (or might not) have ventured into a protestant church of some ilk, and not found that much better. But here - here, was something that seemed to have depth. For myself, even though I was aware of discrepancies, things that just didn't quite fit together in PFAL, well, I still hadn't heard as much Bible taught as this (initially). I gave the Leecher, sorry, the Teacher, the benefit of the doubt - we all make mistakes, especially when speaking more or less extempore (haha).

@Mike Shyster lawyers in the USA. Lots of them exposed themselves in recent months. Some, however, showed their honesty. Happily, the lawyers I've known are generally honest and genuinely do their best for their clients. Please don't be insulting. I have not insulted you, or (so far as I'm aware) anyone else here. It's not my nature. "Spectrum excuse"? Maybe an explanation (not excuse) for your adamancy in face of much opposing information. Look, Mike, I like the way you stick to your guns and won't be swayed. In some ways, it's an admirable quality. It's clear that you really stick to the things you are passionate about. I just wish your "guns" were a bit better, and not water pistols.

It was you who changed the topic, Mike. If you stayed on topic, you wouldn't drag everyone off into jumping on you. You have no idea what people are doing, but rest assured, offering "God's Word" PFAL style probably isn't it. However, there are people here who are offering God's Word in many other ways. "Under-shepherding" and other Way jargon doesn't cut it either. We are to help each other and guide each other in the way of Truth, and that means helping and guiding from the newest Christian to the apparently most mature. Not one of us is perfect, so we all need a little help and guidance at times.

I am revolted by Kirsten's description, T-Bone. Sickening. Just. Sickening. When I first moved to this city, I had a now-deceased friend who was a Wayfer. He was a much older man, showed great kindness, and was very helpful to me in my confused post-Way state. (Just talking friendship, brotherly love; nothing sexual.) I even stayed with him briefly after a few months, before I completed the purchase of my own house. But he was soooo set in his PFAL belief, and that VPW was such a great MoG. He was very hard to talk to about some things, didn't believe a word I said about the corruption within the "ministry," and berated me for "speaking evil." So did other Wayfers round about in this area. Conversation with friend became more about what we avoided, than what we talked about. If you only saw RoA, if everybody there was nicey-nice to you (especially if you were an International), if you didn't see behind the curtain - you always had this idea of how wonderful TWI and all its people were. You never saw inside the whited sepulchre. You never saw or smelled the decay within. In the OT, people were "unclean" for a specified period if they'd touched a human dead body. There was good reason for that. And there's very good reason to be "unclean," if people have touched the dead body of TWI. Especially if they keep "touching" it by rehashing its glory days in their memories.

Yep, 2022 - but for both of us now, I think. Happy new year to you, too.

I referred to this subject elsewhere, so thought I'd bump it up. It's a great thread with some really good advice. Here's a link to something I found more recently. Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps This is a link to the book that I referenced in the opening post: Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps: Amazon.co.uk: Rohr, Richard: 8580001051727: Books

Just to bring this back on track, here's the starter post:

Yet another thread that has become all about Mike. For those who don't know, Mike is on the autistic spectrum. Nowadays, sometimes called "neuro-divergent." (I think there may be some other posters here who are also neuro-divergent.) That means Mike doesn't think like "neuro-typicals" and no amount of presenting alternative facts will dislodge his current views. What you say will only entrench his own views even more. No amount of logic or browbeating will cause him to backtrack on his beliefs. So stop wasting your time trying! Being autistic isn't a "bad" thing, or an insult. It's how people were formed in the womb. High-end autistics are said to have Asperger's syndrome, and there are many famous "Aspies." These include Elon Musk, and Bill Gates, for two. Others excel as musicians, architects, artists, etc, with great focus, and an attention to detail that can lead to ground-breaking advances. Where they excel in ability and focus is, unfortunately for neurotypicals, also where they lack in interpersonal skills and empathy.

I also meant to add, consider also some wider reading, though my response was specifically aimed at the suggestion of re-studying those PFAL books. Go to the source there; remove the corruptions inserted by a corrupt plagiariser. Good post, T-Bone, about three ways of distinguishing fundamentalism. There is a lot of positive inspiration to be gained by looking at one's troubled past in the right way, and I do think Mike recognises that. We can, if we look, see what a mess we were, and how knowing God has rescued us from that. And we can so very definitely use our own troubled pasts to empathise with those who are still living their "troubled pasts," and to show them there is a way out. Perhaps we don't want to look at those who offended us (though there is learning there: why did they offend us? What was so offensive? Why was it offensive? Am I doing any of those same things, and thus offending others?) and there is a huge amount to be gained by looking at those whom oneself offended (why did I do that? Was it conscious or unconscious on my part? How can I avoid offending others - and thereby perhaps driving them away irreparably - and show empathy towards them?) Anybody that's interested could consider looking at the "12 Steps" that Alcoholics Anon uses to help alcoholics make sense of their lives. There's a Christian version of this and several books on the subject. We had a teaching series in church over several weeks, based on this. It was excellent. Anyway, here's a quick link for anyone who's interested. Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps

I think if I were that interested, I'd try to source my review reading from the original books. Those that were plagiarised and repackaged as "PFAL" and "RHST." The precursors of VPW's poor copies. Original (source) material would include JE Stiles - The Gift of the Holy Spirit EW Bullinger - The Companion Bible - for a lot of materials and comments, even "expanded usages." Where's PFAL from? I can no longer remember what was plagiarised for that. As to the "collaterals" (which is not what Mike includes), they're mostly pinched from other available sources. Have a look at this, from John Juedes: www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/tw_documents.htm