Twinky

PFAL should only be a step in the journey of knowing God and knowing the Lord Jesus Christ, more fully. Not one of us can attain complete knowledge, so why should a mere stepping stone (just one) be the only thing? Stepping stones are meant to lead somewhere. There is sooooo much more to learn - from gospels to epistles and beyond - and from commentaries and research from appropriately qualified experts (of which wierwille was not one). If someone dithers on a single stepping stone, eventually others who want to go further will either push the ditherer in, or he'll have to go back. This? Or this? I like the way people are helping others along in this picture. But there does seem to be a ditherer at the back.

That's it. Sorry if my copy and paste link didn't work. Yours is a better link, gives an intro to the participants and their cultie background (apart from the dork in the first few seconds). Some of them were in for a long time (like some of us), which wasn't clear from the bit that I'd seen and posted, which starts about 2m in. You can see that they also had a variety of experiences.

This popped up in my NewsFeed today, why I don't know, but I have seen this series of vids before. I thought this one was kind of interesting and I wondered how some of us here would answer the questions posed. Maybe you've seen it: TV series called Spectrum. Watch | Facebook

Therefore, the answer to life is not 42 but 153 (John 21:10).

This is getting reely silly. Trying to cod us all like that! This is not the plaice for it! But I suppose someone will be carping on soon about spiritu-reel competition.

Never mind doesn't even know how to drive - this one doesn't even seem to know what a car, used or otherwise, is!

Your post is extremely rude, Mike. Maybe if you were more coachable (if you know what that means) you might actually learn something. Thanks, T-Bone, for your comprehensive response to Mike. Mike can learn much from your extensive reading and study "outside the box" of PFAL.

Do you have any source outside of Wierwille's claims, Mike? There are plenty of Jewish Bible/Torah/practice sites where you could check information. chabad.org is one such site. Google also Jewish theology, or Jewish practice and belief, or some other reasonable combination to take you to a wide choice of sites. You said it - you support your assertion.

T-Bone, I would far rather read what you write than delve into a PFAL book or the collaterals again. PFAL and RHST are inconsistent and I found it hard to get my head round the inconsistencies; and the collaterals are overly simplistic, from what I recall. You can re-read all you like; I won't ever bother with them again, LOL.

It is now over two months since the original visit to the vet. The vet had been willing, if not to say keen, to euthanise Tuxedo. Well now. I am pleased to say that Tuxy is doing well, and it must be going on for ten weeks since her diagnosis. Internet research suggests that cats with the problem she has, if the aggressive version, last on average 40-60 days. She has well exceeded that. With the less aggressive version, prognosis is 6-9 months. I fed her on "soup" to start with, then liquidised sachets of catfood in jelly, and have now weaned her onto pate-style tinned food. She is partial to Purina Gourmet pate and "melting heart," both expensive though not as expensive as vet offerings (which the cat refuses to eat anyway). Her backbone no longer feels as if when stroked her spine will break through her skin. Her hips feel comfortably though not excessively padded, and not sharply boned. She is developing quite a fat belly (unless she has a tumour that is growing). She sleeps a lot (but nothing new there), her coat is glossy and thick again, and she is bright-eyed. She jumps about onto furniture and can run very fast when she wants to. She pees and poos normally. She no longer throws up all the time, unless she has got fed up of waiting for me to feed her the tasty wet food, and has stuck her nose into the dish with kibble. And then, she always throws up. So I am very thankful to have this time with her. She is going to be around for some time now, I think. I am not saying the vet is wrong. The cat does have serious health problems. Perhaps the problems were caught in the nick of time. Perhaps she will get worse in a few months. Perhaps, however, she is healed through the power of prayer. The other cat, Crypto, gets a little annoyed at me. She likes the tasty wet food, too. I often catch her in the act of trying to sneak some from Tuxy's bowl. Kibble is no longer her choice of food. She declines my offerings by hand of fragments of ham, chicken or fish, which she always liked before. Hard to explain to a cat that her littermate is on a special diet and she herself is not. Sometimes, I give her a little treat of a sachet of wet food. She gets playtime if she emerges from her lair. She's a strange creature.

T-Bone, what you write is always interesting, but so lengthy that at times I too think, I'll put this aside for another time. Not to say you shouldn't post long things, and we need the challenge to get us thinking, rather than "quick quips" and two-sentence posts that don't take a thread forward. You do post with lots of white space, paragraphs, headings, etc, that make reading easy when there is time. And yes, I do get to reading all of your posts.

It's telling that as Wayfers we "learned" a new language. Unfortunately that wasn't a language that broadened our minds, but one that restricted them. We've had a few threads here about "Way jargon and phraseology ("Would you be blessed to..." springs to mind - instead of, "would you be able to...," "please could you..." and so on). Not to mention some of the unusual uses of some words - the jargon. Sometimes I wonder if those who drop by here and other ex-Way sites have forgotten their "native language" and instead taken on board "Wayspeak" so thoroughly that they can no longer think outside those confines. Not only do they not have the skills, they don't have the vocabulary. It's probably time I re-read 1984,

Word studies, I now think, were a form of "busy-work" and encouraged so that we could show off to other people. "We know Greek and the original meaning of this word is ..." In reality, we never knew any Greek, just a smattering of a few words and if lucky a few points of grammar. It's often said that children who learn another language in school learn other ways of thinking, and thus the exercise is not so much learning the language as developing the brain to think in different ways. That might be true for those of us blessed with really good teachers who could convey those language subtleties. Children in bilingual households pick up both (or sometimes more than two) languages very easily. They quickly sort out the words and the grammar from each language, different though they may be. It's said that this really helps them develop wider thinking patterns. Would be interesting if someone has input on that. I've also heard it said that people who have known more than one language sometimes need to switch to "the other one" to be able to express themselves clearly. To a great extent language reflects the culture of whatever country it is. I have lived in several countries, and travelled in others, and at a critical phase when life was in a bad place for me, the way I got myself out of it was: if I were in XYZ country now, how would I handle this? Choosing to think in a different culture freed me to do something different. How true it is, that travel broadens the mind!

Whatever it is you guys are talking about now - you're sure to be confusing Mike!!

Good post, T-Bone. It's late, and I'm taking my cold off to bed shortly, but a few things occurred to me from what you said. Delight yourself in the LORD, and He will give you the desires of your heart. Ps 37:4 (in fact, the whole of this psalm is a great read, esp :3-7) Question: what are the desires of your heart? Your real desires? Health, wealth, family, home security (a roof over your head)? Is this where the desires of your heart are? "Set your affections on things above..." 1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. (Col 3:1-4) (the rest of this chapter is pretty good, too!) Seriously, people. Do we live as though we are "seated in the heavenlies"? Do we enjoy our life, our "hidden life"? Do we set our hearts on things above, and look, wait expectantly, for the return of the lord? Do we earnestly seek after the magnification of God, the creator of the universe, and his son Jesus Christ? Do we really endeavour, with all our heart, mind, strength and soul, to bring about the kingdom of heaven on earth, by living in a risen-with-Christ manner? By bringing about what we can of: "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." (You know, that "forbidden" prayer)? Do we do God's will? Do we tell our friends, neighbours, colleagues, about the richness (not the cash) that is available by believing God and His many promises? Or are we --- afraid to offend? I think we will find the true riches when we live like this, a bit more from Colossians: Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed [prosperity doctrine!!!], which is idolatry []. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.b 7When you lived among them, you also used to walk in these ways. 8But now you must put aside all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. ... 12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, clothe yourselves with hearts of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. 13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which is the bond of perfect unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, for to this you were called as members of one body. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. If we can manage to live like this (and with other desirable traits discussed in the Bible, but no time to go into here), we'll be excellent friends, parents, children, employees --- if we're excellent employees, then riches (a good pay packet) will come our way. Yeah, I know. I'm still doing my feeble best to do these things. I fail miserably sometimes, often; but sometimes I get it right. Anyway, I'd rather follow after a heart of compassion, being kind and gentle (patience is another thing!), and being forgiving etc than follow any fake "believing" as commanded by the strange gods of PFAL, orange books, and prosperity doctrines. Ps 81:8-9. Now for a hot shower, a warm bed - and perhaps a nip of whisky. For medicinal purposes, you understand.

The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice. I'm pretty sure that no matter what version, when written, what history: all will point to honouring God, the creator and sustainer of the universe; to Jesus Christ his son, who is the way, the truth and the life; and to the life we are supposed to lead - one of respect (awe) for God and respect towards our fellow human beings (if not to mention the whole planet and all there is in it. Jesus's summation of "Love God and love your fellow man" isn't likely to have changed much since it was first said 2000 years ago, and here translated a mere 500 years ago: [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. or as NIV, much more recent, puts it this way: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” But even then, some got nitpicky - even with Jesus ("Oh, I don't understand the words - who's my neighbour? Let's do some research!") And this, as a way of living life (from, for a change, the Berean study Bible - many other versions available). In some versions the words are slightly different due to inexact translations expressing the thoughts behind the words, but the thoughts themselves are unchanged. Gal 5:19-22. 19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; 20idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. No. No variant reading of the above affects any material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.

I miss Steve's thoughtful posts, but as is common here, we can still debate the issue even though the original poster is long gone. And what you say, T-Bone, is worthwhile and very interesting. Just don't expect Steve to respond!

increases prosperity All about context, isn't it. And knowing what the words meant at the time. "Prosper" doesn't mean "get a load of money." It means more, THRIVE. To do well for oneself as a whole. 3 John 1:2 Parallel: Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. (biblehub.com) may prosper εὐοδοῦσθαι (euodousthai) Verb - Present Infinitive Middle or Passive Strong's Greek 2137: From a compound of eu and hodos; to help on the road ... You could say, on the road. Or you could say, "on the way." Who, or what, is the way? Well, don't you know Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The one who embodies God's abundance in all things? The epitome and example of the One God who prepared a handbook of what to do (and not do) in order to thrive? To do well in society, and to be in good standing with not only God but with one's fellow human beings? Now read that Book again. How much does it talk about the pursuit of money? And how much, in contrast, of the pursuit of a righteous and well-lived life? Think again of how many examples there are of those who are, or want to be, rich, and the downfall of those folks. Again, in contrast, how many of those who live a righteous and well-lived life succeed financially as a by-product of that life? Some, certainly; but many who live a righteous and well-lived life don't seem to do well financially (Paul and all the apostles, for just a few) - yet they deem their lives immensely rich in the Lord. For goodness sake. Get rid of this damned "health and wealth" heresy. Develop health and godliness. Then, maybe, the wealth will come. Or not. THRIVE, people. THRIVE. 1 Timothy 6:9-11, 6 9 But they that will be rich [and chase prosperity doctrines] fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows [the exact opposite of thriving]. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after [get on the road, the way of holiness] righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. 6 But godliness with contentment [God's idea of prosperity] is great gain.

real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on But later, in PFAL, he says: "The Word of God is true whether or not you see it come to pass" or some such. Was that in context of prophets of old looking centuries into the future for the coming of the Saviour, the Promised Seed, the Lamb of God? We know that many of those OT prophets thought they were forsaken by God, at times. They despaired of their own lives. They must have thought God was backing off from his promises. And yet - God saw them through and continued to guide them - and give them prophecies that in no way would they ever see. With God, it's not necessarily instant gratification, which is what it sounds like Weirwille wanted (at least, instant as in the next very few years). Sometimes we only see the blessings of God well in hindsight.

You might be interested in this book. It's a really interesting read. Available s/hand for a very modest amount on Ebay and Amazon.

4.7K???? Maybe some of those are bots or some such.

Thank you, Rocky. Somebody here can read, and "gets it."

Ah, WW, what has Pillai got to do with the 12 Steps? Especially in the Christian context. Reminder. Here is Step 1. I think in our recovery from TWI, all of us had to start from this place. Our separation from God - either before we ever heard of TWI, or quite possibly because of TWI. I assure you - my life had become so unmanageable that I was near suicidal when they kicked me out. Except that I had so little energy and motivation that I couldn't even do that. Profound depression, PTSD, who knows. Thank God he rescued me and all is very, very well now. Pity I couldn't have listened to him earlier and got out of the misery of the post-TWI state years before.

You guys are waaaay off topic.