Twinky

Isn't "churchianity" about who gets the glory? And what the giver of the glory gets? Some people spend practically their entire Sunday in church, attending every service. Why? Do they really need five services every Sunday? Or is it to feel good? Or be seen to be there? Maybe those people also give out the hymn books or collect up something afterwards or put the chairs away. Some people like to be chalice assistant, or to read the lesson from the Bible. Why? What's their motivation? To be seen doing it? Or because there's a need that they can fulfil, in part or whole? What do these people do on other days? Do they help those in need, minister to the poor in some way, visit prisons, help out at hostels, etc etc? Does their Sunday church time spill into heartfelt actions during the rest of the week? Does what they learn(?) on Sunday carry through into actions in the days following? What is it that they like about church, anyway? Is it the message, the corporate worship, the being with other Christians and sharing their faith together? Or is it the comforting ritual of the orderliness of a service? Of the sounds, smells, robes? Perhaps such are of genuine help to some people in their faith. Whatever. I see churchianity as being those people who attend church because it's "what they do," but without it having any impact on their day to day life. Who obey rules from the church that were never even hinted at in the scriptures. Corporately, I see churchianity as having rules that don't benefit the congregation. Ministers have to be dressed a certain way. Some people can be licensed to perform certain actions - like chalice assistant, or reading from the Bible. And so on. Who makes these rules? And why? To what purpose? Rules are good. But when rules take over, then they are not good. And thus, churchianity is born.

That was rather good.

In Britain, we nationally have a culty experience with recruitment of young girls for ISIS. There's a famous group of three 15 year old girls who left school and got to Turkey. The whereabouts of one is unknown; one is dead; and the other has become infamous. Shamima Begum was swiftly married to a Dutchman, a convert to Islam; she bore three children, all of whom died very very young. Her husband is also dead. She has been trying to return to the UK since she was about 20. She has been stripped of British citizenship as being too dangerous to allow to return, and is now stateless and stuck in a refugee camp with no prospect of return to the UK. There's a Wikipedia article about her [her alone] and also the attached one about the three friends who ran away. She has now just turned 24 and, in the last nine years, has lived a life that few could comprehend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethnal_Green_trio I honestly don't know how I feel, think, about this woman. I can see what she is reported to have said and done. I wonder how accurate it all is. Has some been made up or embroidered, as a deterrent to others? Is she really the violent person she's painted to be? Is she a person who can be rehabilitated? She was an impressionable, immature 15 year old who had been groomed into thinking a particular way. She acted on that thinking and became deeper enmeshed with her cult ( <>she joined their "Way Corps"). Of her own free will, or was she lured, tricked, compelled into that? Without in any way excusing what she did, I have compassion on the 15 year old child - all three girls in fact - who got groomed, brainwashed, into what they did (who knows really what they were thinking, or what their motivations were?) (and what factors in their home lives came into play?). I even have compassion for how they became more involved. Didn't that also happen to most (all?) of us? We too were groomed into thinking something was good that turned out to be poisonous, dangerous; and some of us got more and more involved, as Penworks did; others of us became part of the WC; yet more others became recruiters (Ambassadors/Way Disciples) etc. How far might some of us have gone, if pushed far enough? Many of our boundaries, especially sexually, were warped beyond comprehension. We weren't pushed into violent acts, but we were introduced to conspiracy theories. We now regret those choices made when we were younger and under the influence of the group. But despite feeling compassion towards these girls, I wouldn't trust them and others of their ilk for a very, very long time. We know how long it has taken for us to get TWI out of our heads, to get our thinking straight. Some indeed still refuse to see. And most here were somewhat older than these three immature 15 y.o. girls. I wonder how many years it would take for them to get ISIS out of their heads - if that's what they want?

Thank you for that honest and brave sharing, Charlene.

In my perusal of CNN this morning; https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/15/us/soldiers-of-christ-south-korean-woman-murder/index.html Horrendous.

HI Alex, welcome to the cafe. Fewer bunfights these days, but still some good chat.

That's hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's something to help deal with those splinters.

Save them from themselves, Nathan? Definitely out of the frying pan into the fire. I can see that "strong leadership and a stirring message" would work well in Fiji and a lot of Polynesian locations. They tend to be very group- or family-oriented, with large extended family connections. It's very hard for individuals to break out of those connections. Very tribal; even if they venture out on their own, they are still subject to unwritten rules and expectations of looking after their families, and are expected to send their wages back to their families. So once the head of a household is hooked in, so the rest must follow. Possibly how early Christianity took hold. Gospels, Acts: "He and all his household believed/were baptised/..."

And yet. Jesus is reputed to have said: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34) This raises a couple of issues. (1) Jesus is asking his father to forgive them. He's not saying he forgives them. And yet: (2) We know that Jesus and his father are likeminded in all things, plenty of references to that. Jesus only does what the father wishes. If Jesus asks his father to forgive, but he himself does not, does that introduce a split personality if God is a trinity and a part of that trinity is saying one thing and another part is saying or thinking something different? That's a nice rabbit hole for trinitarians. Does Jesus have independent thought processes that do not line up with the fathr's wishes? And further: (3) This verse in Luke and the sentiments expressed therein appears only in Luke. No similar reference in Matthew, Mark and John. Many commentaries simply note: "Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence." Hmm. So not much to hang one's hat on, in the forgiveness line.

Have you tried looking on Facebook (try variant spellings of their names), Linked In, and the like? If you try FB, try the names of any friends they might have - they might be FB Friends too - might be a backdoor way of locating who you really do want to contact. You could also try online phone directories (best if you have an idea where they might be living) and there are paid-for services (but not expensive) that can provide a range of possible and you pay to check the one(s) you're interested in.

Some interesting stuff there. But I looked at an old WC notes section, a rant from Craig in about 2006, and I just wanted to yell back at him about all the stuff that was WRONG in his haha "teaching" or rant or whatever you call it. How contradictory in so very many ways. How overbearingly bullying. How demanding everything was and how it demeaned EVERY believer. Seriously unhinged. Not surprising I was so f'ked up when the M&A'd me. Several years of these rants and no ability to say, hey mate, ease up a bit! The documents that I glanced at on the old site enraged me. (Possibly even with cult-brain, they'd have pi$$ed me off badly.) Maybe, sometimes it's good to look back at where we came from, and realise just what prisons we have been released from .

That's Ham for you, STL. Irrelevant off topic comments. Can be amusing - at times.

Very happy for you both - no, for you all. All best for a long and happy future. Tremendous that you could rescue her from such uncaring birth parents. I know you don't espouse Christianity any more but this came to mind in relation to your new little girl: For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. You are certainly giving her hope and a future. What's her name?

Thanks very much for your contributions on this thread, rrobs. Really helpful. Just as a bit of an aside: It's not just ANE that has a different worldview. If we consider European medieval worldviews, they were a long way from where we are now, and some of the writings from that time (say from Chaucer to Shakespeare) contain thinking that is hard for us to get our heads around. You might even find that your grandparents and great-grandparents' worldview is rather different from your own. And their use of language, or rather meaning of words, differed. For those with ancient indigenous cultures in their lands (Australian aborigines/first peoples, NZ Maori, US native Americans), again there are different cultural worldviews that may be hard to reconcile with "known" facts of today. It could well be that, should human life still exist in 1,000 years time, they will think that what we now accept as "facts" is quaint, strange, primitive. While human beings have been "the same "for millennia, human beings' thinking, worldviews, etc haven't been the same. There was obviously an explosion of interest in the early 1800s in studying the ancient Hebrew worldview in the early 1800s and in attempting to understand both the Bible and the ancient mindset (going by the reference dates you quote). But it started much earlier, dating back to the Reformation in the 1500s (Luther's time). Two articles from that found of knowledge, Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_19th_century The latter period would give rise to the scholars' work quoted by rrobs.

I recently was asked to read Proverbs to a friend who's ill (I suspect she meant Psalms). So I read Prov 14 and 15. I could not help but think of the current political situation in the US - and of so-called strongmen leaders everywhere. https://biblehub.com/hcsb/proverbs/15.htm Full of gems, these chapters.

Just went to see this last Sunday. Wondered if others had seen it too, and what you thought. Supposedly documenting the history of the early Christian hippy movement in San Fran, featuring Lonny Frisbee and "Pastor Chuck" and Greg Laurie, and a band known as Love Song.

Hmm, I wonder what foreign languages Crommett speaks? Would be useful if at least one, preferably more, if he's leading a Translations Dept. Presumably that's part of International Outreach? Why the new leader? Why now? Is there still an IO Dept? Crommett I know for sure is proxy director on at least one subsidiary TWI clone overseas; probably in others, too, but that doesn't mean he's really familiar with them or with how they "work" in non-US cultures. TWI always expected that other countries would work according to the US model, but wiser heads would say that the US model is not the only model. TWI has a lot of people in Africa and many of the countries in which they're active will speak French; some speak Spanish, and a few, Portuguese, as the main European languages. In addition, there is work in South America (French, Spanish, Portuguese). There are many good Bibles already available in these languages. No PFAL-type materials, of course. That's what Translations would be doing. JY de Lisle used to work on French translations, Jorge ?? on Spanish, but that was decades ago. I seriously doubt that Translations would get involved in Arabic, Chinese or Russian (to mention but a few) translations.

Going to see this on Sunday.

The word of God is the will of God. Hmm, the way this thread has gone is all about the "written word" - the Bible. (And in Mike's case, the collaterals.) Let's not forget this: John 1:14 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. It reads: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” So if we look at Jesus Christ, the one and only son, who was full of grace and truth, do the actions of this "word" differ from the written principles of the Bible? The Woman Caught in Adultery John 8:28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29 He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him.” Shouldn't Jesus have obeyed the written word and thrown a stone at the woman? What about when he touched lepers, a strict no-no in the written word? Jesus responds (Mt 8:3) to the approaching leper (Mt 8:2) - not by resenting him or scaring him away, but by stretching out his hand towards him. As the leper kneels before him, Jesus touches him. Instead of warning Jesus of his uncleanness, the leper makes a statement of faith and begs for healing. So if you're going to adhere to a belief that "The word of God is the will of God" then you need to reconcile the dichotomy between what the written word says, and some of the actions of the word in manifestation in the form of Jesus Christ. Fits like a hand in a --- in a what? A mitten? A pocket? A paper bag? Or was Jesus wrong? "Off the word"? Just exactly what word of God is the will of God?

Here we go again.

Covid did amazing things to boost cashless society. It's so long since I used cash that I have to look very carefully at both notes and coins to be able to recognise what they are. I usually pay by debit card, but for big purchases, by credit card, because there are extra protections if the item purchased goes wrong. My bank issued me a global debit card, which is awesome and I can use in almost all countries, without any surcharges, and I can just pay in the local currency, whatever that might be. For fun, travelling around recently, I used that card to buy things in four different currencies within 12 hours. Even the homeless guys, begging, have card machines (and probably better phones than my 2012 model with a badly cracked screen). For sure, banks make a charge to the retailer. But the retailer gets a benefit, too: doesn't have to count lots of cash at closing time, no time wasted in taking it to the bank, no risk of being mugged to any employee whilst taking cash to a bank, and less risk of being burgled for the cash that they don't hold on the premises. When I was in New Zealand, oh, late 1980s, cards were widespread then, far more than anywhere else. You could go into any store and use your card to draw out cash and retailers welcomed that because they didn't then have to bank that cash. Cards were almost the de facto mode of payment. And now, most of Europe and Asia (Singapore, etc) are deeply into using cards. Surely in the US people are not still on a regular basis using cheques?????? (Or even, checks!) Cash? Useful at the local yard / garage sale. It's also useful for those on a tight budget and who have difficulty managing to have a fistful of cash and to know that amount of cash, and that alone, has to get them through to next payday or whenever. If they spend it all at once, well - tough. There's no more available.

Is "the Word" written in the stars? Psalm 19:1 says 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. So there is a different written word. Written zillions of years ago - and still around now. You can see it every single night, unless there is cloud cover. The word written in the stars, which we must also study. Some, perhaps many, of us have read Bullinger's "The Witness of the Stars." I wondered briefly if Mike would consider that as part of the collaterals, but he probably wouldn't because it doesn't have VPW's name splattered on it. However, if vpw had pinched chunks of Witness, and published these chunks under his own name, likely Mike would thrill himself with those too. I suggest we all take up astronomy immediately, then we can study God's Word in the original language. Never mind learning Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic; too late on the scene. If we learned astronomy, who knows, we might even discover some of those missing verses that vpw claimed must exist somewhere. PS there are other Bible verses about the word being written in the stars, not just Ps 19:1, but that'll do for starters.

Do you think you love God, Mike? How does that play out in your day to day life? And how does that play out in the way you respond to people here? You doubt what people say, and attribute thoughts and opinions to them that they clearly don't have.

Not another language, but I have lived for long periods (years) in other English-speaking countries. And there's a different way of thinking, different sets of national expectations (as it were), so the inhabitants speak and act a little differently. Use English a little differently. In my native country, there've been times when I've got "stuck" and it was only when I was thinking like someone in the other country that I managed to move forward. ("If I were in xxx now, how would I handle this problem?") A bit strange, but it worked. I learned other languages in school, but never really used them.