Twinky

Pimp: And your point is ??

Nice 5 pointed stars on the cover. Quoted in £ sterling? Living in Hawai'i? 2 copies of the handwritten journal for sale (used carbon paper, perhaps) Like the cure for cancer - HEY what if VP appeared to the author and told her all about it? (tongue in cheek)

Actually, no that never happened. I have had people say, "I'm not a Christian, I'm a Catholic!"Just scary that most of the churches teach the trinity, a concept I always found difficult and inconsistent. Neither do I. Just regard it with a less than gullible eye. I accept nothing and re-think everything.I went to a Christian festival recently over a long weekend. It was very pleasant. There were many thousands of people there. They were from every conceivable Christian type of organisation you could imagine, churches, charities, workers overseas, with ideas on all sorts of things. Just goes to show what a great bunch of people there are out there...whatever route they took to be God's kids.

Some of the things that’s wrong with church (ie, established lot): When Rowan Williams was installed as Archbishop of Canterbury (= Primate of the Anglican Church) he made a big deal of inclusiveness. He didn’t speak out against certain things, in particular homosexuality; now the Anglican church is pretty much split in the middle, with the US ordaining well-known active homos (Geoffrey John, is his name?) At the end of August, Dr Williams finally (after all those years in the “head office”) has finally “distanced himself from his one-time liberal support of gay relationships and stressed that the tradition and teaching of the Church has in no way been altered by the Anglican Communions consecration of its first openly homosexual bishop. Only now is he “backing a resolution which says that homosexual practice is incompatible with the Bible.” (Article: “The Sunday Telegraph” (a well-respected UK newspaper) 27 August 2006). This is that same man who, at around the time of his inauguration as Archbishop of Canterbury was also appointed (?) as a druid in some Welsh assembly (he’s a Welshman). This same Anglican church – get this! – has recently renewed the licence to continue to officiate of a priest who has converted to Hinduism. “My philosophical position is thatall religions are cultural constructs. … God is the same irrespective of whether you pray to him in a temple, church or mosque,” he is reported as having said. He keeps a statue of Ganesh (the Hindu elephant god) in front of his house and prays to it. (The Bishop who renewed his licence said he didn’t know of this priest’s “conversion.”) (“The Times” (a well-respected UK daily newspaper), 8 September 2006). The Presbyterian church is also grappling with homosexuality – is it allowable or not? Methodists have been debating about whether to throw in their lot with the Anglicans. The RC church does not allow its priests to marry – yet the Bible explicitly warns that there will come those who “forbid to marry” (in the context of being against God’s plan for life); and explicitly says that [ministers] in the church should be “the husband of one wife” and should rule their households well. Not to mention the other things that the RC church does that’s off the word – “Mariolatry” for one. The Vatican is openly trying to woo the Anglican church back into its fold. Not to mention the “vain repetition” of pretty much all mainstream churches, where it seems the ritual, dressing up, the order of service manual for certain days, and the “prayer or collect for the day” have greater precedence than the actual needs of the congregation. For those of you who do attend mainstream churches, many of you do understand the differences in practice and what the Bible says, and can sift out (some of) the error. It’s great you can enjoy fellowship there and no doubt there are some really good-hearted people. It just must be very hard for newbies into those churches to sort out what God really has to say about things. If you are able to put in your pennyworth from time to time, you may be achieving something special. After all, they are still our brothers and sisters in Christ. But heck: who are we on GSC to talk? Didn’t TWI teach us some good stuff as well as a heap of error of its own kind? At least TWI got us reading the book, and when we take off the PFAL-colored glasses, we can read it clearly enough.

Belle, Glad to see this topic high on the list. Still think there should be a document (Belle has something useful) set in the Editorial section so it's RIGHT IN THE FACE of newbies and innies.

Yes, definitely, if you follow any kind of (dare we say?) cult. That's what makes a cult. Did you see the thread on works of the flesh - one of which specifically states "cults" !! (Sorry, I added a bit there - damn me through eternity) But should Christ be divided? Not by those walking in love...

I've been applying for a new job(s) lately, and the agency (as agencies do) sent me a suggested list of "difficult questions to prepare answers to" - you know the sort of thing, "What difficult situation have you had to deal with and what did you learn from it? (blah, blah)" And I got to reflecting on my time with and post-TWI and how life is now. Not laboring under the extreme stress of guilt and condemnation, daily living now has an undercurrent of joy bubbling all through it; I've very much more patience; am kinder; am very peaceful in heart; etc (all of these observable and commented upon by colleagues and friends) - the list reminded me so much of the "fruit of the spirit" from Gal 5:22. :) Which got me thinking: what, then, of the "works of the flesh"? :( (Note, I rarely read KJV any more and am exploring just about any other version I can find. The added insight can be quite startling). The Comparative Study (parallel) Bible offers the following for Gal 5:19-21 (reading across the versions) and I checked in a few other versions as well (NW is New World Translation put out by the JWs). RV doesn't add anything. "The works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: • Adultery (KJV); sexual immorality (NIV) • Fornication (KJV); impurity (other versions) • Sensuality (NAS); loose conduct (NW) • Idolatry (all versions) • Witchcraft (KJV, NAS); Sorcery (Amp, NIV); practice of spiritism (NW) ["genuine spiritual suspicion", perhaps?] • Hatred (KJV); Enmities (NAS) • Strife (Amp, NAS) • Jealousy (Amp, NAS, NIV) • Outbursts of anger (NAS); fits of rage (NIV) • Selfish ambition (NIV) • Divisions (Amp) • Sects with peculiar opinions (Amp) (love this one!) • Envying • Murders (only in KJV, not in other versions) [anybody got an interlinear?] • Drunkenness • Orgies (NIV) And the like." Hmmm. Does this remind you of anybody? Anything? Wednesday evenings? For those into more modern English yet, try this from The Message (“crafted to present the tone, rhythm, events and ideas of the Bible in everyday language”): "“Repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; “A stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; “Frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; “Trinket gods; “Magic-show religion; “Paranoid loneliness [or perhaps, isolation?]; “Cut-throat competition; “All-consuming yet never-satisfied wants; “A brutal temper; “An impotence to love or be loved; “Divided homes and divided lives; “Small-minded and lopsided pursuits; “The vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; “Uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; “Ugly parodies of community; I could go on." (Chortles of recognition ) Can't say we weren't warned! All versions are pretty clear that "those who practice/do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." ("If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Msg). It's a promise, folks!

But if God put mosquitoes on the earth to be food for bats and birds... wasn't that introducing death right from the beginning? (Many bats and birds eat fruits and grains as well or instead of insects). What about larger animals that are solely carnivores? Their teeth show them as such - if they were designed that way just what are/were they supposed to eat?

Doesn't work on the school kids on the bus.

The impact of the internet might well be to assist those who want to do just that, and to avoid those who talk about doing it and do otherwise - make it a "game". Seeing what's on GSC, would you want to join TWI (a church)? (Though there might well be (and certainly were) some fine folks locally who really did live the life - that's true of any church/denomination). Can't remember the beginning of this thread. If it was about the internet replacing "church", not possible, have to agree with you, WhatTheHey. Internet cannot replace personal contact. If it was about using the internet to avoid and expose harmful organizations, it encourages the individual to use his or her judgment a little more carefully. Has to be beneficial.

Never heard of this "Word Promotions Ltd" before, but guess what, Google shows them at an address in Edinburgh. So can it be assumed CG knew Gartmore was going down and then set up this business while the ship was sinking (so that he could continue to generate an income)? Bruce Mahone seems to have a franchise/license/whatever from Word Promotions Ltd known as The Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship (CABSF) based out of Woodbridge, VA ("established in 1995 for the purpose of Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. The group endeavors to present Biblical teaching of the highest caliber possible, based on the most accurate research available. Activities include scheduled classes, focused conferences, and public meetings in support of local home Bible fellowships.") So you know who to avoid... depending on your pain threshold. Is Word Promotions Ltd where the dosh went from Gartmore? A UK believer told me that she was in the vicinity a few years ago, decided to visit Gartmore (she'd been WoW from there when it first opened up) - and found the place closed. So far as she was aware, there had never been any announcement that it was closing down. A tape ministry ... lotsa fellowship there (tongue in cheek). At least in your average church there are real human beings and some of them might smile at you and say hello. You might even get a cuppa. Not many hugs from a tape deck.

Buried it in the Way Woods, perhaps?

As to churches: if they meet your need at any particular time - why not? I never found anything helpful in established churches, seemed to be too much ritual and not enough outside of that. Since then the vicar in my village church has died. The new vicar is quite clued in and particularly tries to get things going to interest young people, Churches in general seem to have moved on. Some seem quite lively and others still seem dull and boring. Twig fellowships were full of excited, enthusiastic people who liked each other and loved God. That was very attractive. And yes, there were a few healings, not just wilting prayers for healing, at the beginning. Don't see why people can't go to churches to meet specific needs at different times in their lives. Not one of us knows it all, and we can all learn from others and teach others (if only by giving a kind word or a smile!). There is a lot to be said for the social bonds of "going to church" in the community in which you live, but that's only one aspect of the fellowship. The bible tells us that "signs, miracles and wonders" follow believers. If you see this happening in the church of your choice, see what you can learn there. If you don't see it happening, maybe it's time to look elsewhere. Go where your needs are met, whether established church, TWI splinter group or even TWI (shudder). When you aren't learning any more and don't see yourself growing in God's grace, if you need to go elsewhere - go! With God's blessing!

This is a bit of an aside from the main topic, but -- The Way in GB based out of Gartmore, Scotland, collapsed. This is where Geer was based at the time of PoP and where he alleges VPW made all those matters of concern known. Don't know when it collapsed - around 2000? Could be a little before or a little later. Since then it appears from GSC that he returned to the USA and has set up some other fellowship/organization here which people have reported attending. Gartmore was an old school with huge grounds in fabulously beautiful country. It's pretty remote from any sort of civilization but would be worth a packet. (Could be a very exclusive hotel - excellent fishing and other outdoor activities nearby.) Wonder what became of the money it was sold for? Rather suspect it was originally paid for by TWI but they had split years and years before so extremely doubtful that anything would go back there; that would have been done at the time of the split.

TOTW That's me you're talking about! (Not quite 20 years, though). Heck, I was under so much guilt and condemnation, that once I decided the next 40(??) years couldn't be like that I think I would have eaten any humiliation to get back. Googled "TWI" and "GSC" came up. Waybrain said that all the GSC stuff was "a trick of the adversary" - but there was soooo much of it! Looks like things got even worse after I was M&A'd. The articles in the Editorial section really helped and the guilt evaporated shockingly quickly. If I were to get involved in anything today (any new club or organisation of any kind) in a serious way, I'd do a Google search. Hopefully any "newbie" would. They wouldn't be impressed with the TWI site, which is pretty uninformative and very boring. The mantle has moved on. TWI are "old prophets" (or "old wineskins"). Aren't old things that remind us of what held us back disposed of on "Uncle Harry Day"?

There is hardly room for anyone else in the same room as CG, his ego is so big. CG wanted to run TWI instead of LCM. He was a bit more of a controller - before LCM got quite so bad at controlling. The end result probably wouldn't be any different. CG ran Gartmore as The Way in GB (or was it The Way in the UK? - which has also collapsed) and then there was POP and the split between them. Some years later CG's outfit collapsed, leaving only unhappy and bewildered people. Just like TWI. Anyone who goes to a CG fellowship may as well join TWI. No difference, just whose ego and whose belly you prefer to feed. It's "for our learning," folks. :blink:

Can't imagine that being in TWI in the latter days would do anybody with any kind of mental illness any good whatsoever. If known about, folks would always be "casting devil spirits out" probably to no avail and putting the ill person under more and more condemnation. How many people on GSC left TWI with some degree of mental illness - depression, desire to self-harm etc - because of all the rather less than edifying comments that were made about "cop outs"? These folk may not have been diagnosed by their doctors, but they have certainly been mentally damaged. CW, you are not alone here. Do what you need to do, to keep yourself well and healthy and not a danger to yourself or anyone else. Your hospital sounds well capable of helping you. What fun (joke) it must have been trying to explain Waybrain.

Dot, your story is heart-rending. It shows the hypocrisy that they were so into. You should have been believed, not beaten upon. Highway - quote: "our fervent desire to be a beloved child of God and love and serve others. This innocent desire got twisted back upon us and became the bars of our own cage." All of us here have had that "innocent desire" twisted back. It has taken some very many years to overcome it - GSCers write about their anniversaries of escape (1 year, 2 years, 6 years, 20 years). It often seems to take longer to recover than the number of years people have had "in". How much worse if that "innocent desire" has included practically all of your life? Many decades? And not just the love for God, but the love for the man (or what he was when you met and married him), the love for his and your own children, so that you are enmeshed at every thought? In my line of work, I have seen abused women go back (if they ever leave) their mates time after time after time. Their own self-confidence, self-esteem, etc, are eroded so badly that they hardly dare form a thought. But they will take whatever love/respect they can get. (And that's nowadays, in the 40s, 50s, 60s it really wasn't done to leave your husband.) Mrs W never struck me as being a victim, but many who are victims are truly adept at hiding it. And many women who aren't beaten into submission (spiritually at least) but who have adulterous husbands take them back, forgiving them time after time, until it's little more than a routine. Adulterers don't usually start overtly. They have long periods of practise before they are rumbled. Mrs W will have been taught to "forgive" by the very man she has to forgive. Mrs W was treated overtly with respect within TWI and many looked up to her, rightly or wrongly. Maybe that's what held her together. Sometimes, like with Dot and who knows who else, you have to work within and there would be no way to work from outside. Who can know? The woman's dead. Cut her some slack. She can't collude/encourage/hinder any more. Whatever wrongs she did are far outweighed by the wrongs of others. The Searcher of Hearts will reward her (or not) as appropriate. He knows her motives in not confronting then. But as LCM was so fond of saying: "This is the Age of Confrontation" - those who didn't confront him/colluded with him (Donna?) - well now, they're a different kettle of fish.

How interesting! So PFAL colored glasses must be pink or red, because they certainly made the Red Thread disappear!

Ach, no-one'll buy it if they don't like the notes. Who buys used Bibles with personal notes in anyway? Did you put a disclaimer in it, saying "DO NOT contact TWI"? Can understand it was hard for you to do, have the same problem, also your pondering if it was the right thing to do. If you can still hear LCM preaching, though, cast your mind back to "traveling light" and getting rid of those bad old reminders. If anyone does buy it, they won't have the yelling sessions locked into their brains. Maybe they'll just see Bullinger's notes and it'll spark something for them there. If you're still anxious, buy it back (consider it a donation to Goodwill) and toss it in in a furnace.

People have been M&A'd for so much less. So very much less. Yeah, he'd still be Pres (over what??). Just wondering now if (wherever he's living) he's bought himself a house - with a mortgage!

Aw gee, the more I hear the less I like. So glad I'm not there now. (Guess what, I've got a life. And I'm in charge of it.) Still sorry to hear this about HA, though.

I also met HA a lot of times, and he was *always* very kind and considerate. Grandfatherly. Liked him a lot. No "bad vibes" at all. Thought he was very honest, and that he took time and thought for the believers. He really helped me at a time when things were very difficult, and extended facilities and aid to me in a way that simply "wasn't done" but definitely met my need. A good example to follow. Also thought he had been sorely abused - especially by Chris Ge-r. Of course then I hadn't heard all the stuff about VPW. VPW said HA was always with him. Which makes HA a colluder... (and also subsequently with LCM). I don't have too much difficulty in dealing with the allegations against VPW nor the legals against LCM. I do have some difficulty with thinking that HA was a part of the cover-up. :( Anyway, wasn't it "Uncle Harry" who was the greatest Christian layman"? Or what epithet was applied to him?

Y'know they didn't just control "negative" emotions. Early in rez we were preparing for a big w/e. We'd set up tables, clothes, all sorts of things and the lobbies did look nice. A sp.ptnr had sent me some flowers (how kind!!) and would be in. I was excited about everyone coming in (therefore it must have been early in rez) and whatever this big event was, and went skipping joyfully down the corridor - only to be called back by the Corps Coordinator and being reproved and told, "Dignity - have more dignity". Thought then that was a sad response to being excited about the believers coming in - I thought (but pushed the thought away real quick) of David's wife Michal despising him because he was joying in the Lord and dancing in the street. Sad, or what?