Twinky

HCW: What an experience that must have been! (LOL) How come they didn't recognise you and sue you for trespassing? Nobody there who recognized you? What are they doing with all that modern technology, anyway?

Time for a change of pace, perhaps… We all have our horror stories about LCM. I wondered if there were any good things to be said, practical advice given that was sound and worth following. On a cold morning recently, I was wiping the heavy condensation off my car prior to going to work. I was reminded of a cold morning at HQ – well, it was probably a winter lunchtime – when LCM started going on about people clearing off their cars in winter. He wanted the front and back windscreens of vehicles completely cleared of snow and ice before those vehicles were driven, not just a little hole cleared in the front to peer through (don’t remember him mentioning the front side windows, but the same would apply). This was coupled with a threat that anyone found not clearing their windscreens would be instantly dismissed from the campus. I happen to think that he was absolutely right on this occasion, especially in view of the large number of pedestrians that could be found at certain times of the day in and around the grounds. Yes, it was just "common sense" and no special revelation needed, but lots of people did not (and still do not) do such simple things (you in TX don't have the need!) and clearly people needed to be told or reminded. Not starting a fan club here, but does anyone want to add any other genuinely useful advice?

Getting sucked into my local library this afternoon (a common occurrence) I found a well-borrowed 400 page book entitled, “The Trinity – True or False?” by a couple of guys who say in their foreword that “neither [of them] … lay claim to any biblical “scholarship” and their only qualification for this task is a lifetime’s regard for and study of scripture and a desire that its teaching should be correctly understood. In the use and meaning of original Greek and Hebrew words, we have had to rely heavily on standard works of reference… “As far as the division of labour is concerned, chapters 4,5,7 and part of 3 are the work of xxx and the balance is that of the co-author yyy… “Our thanks are due to several of our fellow Bible students to whom we showed the early drafts, and who made many helpful comments and suggestions.” There is more of this humble approach, acknowledging contributions of others. The back of the book contains lots of scripture references; a bibliography with all works studied; a history/development of the trinity, and other helpful stuff. Just reading the foreword and the very last para, it appears their conclusions are that JCNG. I obviously haven’t read it yet but liked the way they “set out their cart” and announced their antecedents right at the beginning – no pretending to be a research ministry or that they had qualifications in ancient languages; and they acknowledge the help given by others and their sources. Not having my copy of JCNG available, I can’t recall what that contains, but it certainly wasn’t this forthcoming about its basis. Rather, that one is: This is it so just believe it. It will be interesting to see how these guys get to where they end up, and how they deal with certain scriptures. More on this later, perhaps. Getting sucked into my local library this afternoon (a common occurrence) I found a well-borrowed 400 page book entitled, “The Trinity – True or False?” by a couple of guys who say in their foreword that “neither [of them] … lay claim to any biblical “scholarship” and their only qualification for this task is a lifetime’s regard for and study of scripture and a desire that its teaching should be correctly understood. In the use and meaning of original Greek and Hebrew words, we have had to rely heavily on standard works of reference… “As far as the division of labour is concerned, chapters 4,5,7 and part of 3 are the work of xxx and the balance is that of the co-author yyy… “Our thanks are due to several of our fellow Bible students to whom we showed the early drafts, and who made many helpful comments and suggestions.” There is more of this humble approach, acknowledging contributions of others. The back of the book contains lots of scripture references; a bibliography with all works studied; a history/development of the trinity, and other helpful stuff. It is footnoted throughout with scripture references and references to works that the authors considered. Just reading the foreword and the very last para, it appears their conclusions are that JCNG. I obviously haven’t read it yet but liked the way they “set out their cart” and announced their antecedents right at the beginning – no pretending to be a research ministry or that they had qualifications in ancient languages; and they acknowledge the help given by others and their sources. Not having my copy of JCNG available, I can’t recall what that contains, but it certainly wasn’t this forthcoming about its basis. Rather, that one is: This is it so just believe it. It will be interesting to see how these guys get to where they end up, and how they deal with certain scriptures. More on this later, perhaps.

Be patient, the removal of Waybrain affects us all differently ... Though it would be useful for God to have something to work with to reconstruct.

Dang, you should have gone after him. Would have filled your freezer for a year. Ed Horney would have loved the roadkill. (Well after several months he told us to stop the roadkill jokes.) Seriously - glad you weren't hurt. Lots of good advice here. Locally, in deer areas there is a speed limit off 40 mph which it seems I alone observe.

Good post, Roy, everything you wrote could apply to me, ten years in, ten years out and only just beginning to heal I agree with what you said except for: because they surely are not recruiting in the numbers they did, GSC membership is expanding and ex TWIers are fleeing to the "membersip" of other groups, churches of all sorts, etc, only some of whom post here. TWI will die off from natural attrition. ...who then will own the cornfields?? Hey, should GSC make an offer? Cafe in the OSC, anyone?

Hi Pete. Makes more sense if they were still (partly) alive before the rest of the torture. Guess I got the watered down version. Truly gruesome. Linda: the quarters were sent to parts N, S, E and W as a warning to other dissidents. I have a feeling that there were occasions when something similar happened in Biblical times. Nice to know there is some compassion in these little religious cults... (ouch)

DMiller’s explanation is good, but what’s kinda missing is the religious angle, which still runs deep even today. It was really a "cult war". England had not so long before (early 1500s) removed itself from the Roman Catholic church by the simple expedient of Henry VIII having a big fight with the Pope and appointing himself head of the (new) Church of England (to this day, the reigning monarch is technically the head of the Cof E). The monasteries were dissolved and Henry VIII took their wealth into his coffers. The RCs didn’t like this, of course. A very unsettled period followed, with his daughters Elizabeth (Protestant) and Mary (RC) fighting for the throne. Mary called on her loyal RC associates abroad (in particular, the French and Spanish) and it’s from those countries that many of the plotters later came. This is the period of “burning at the stake” (ouch!) for RC heretics – burning to purge out the heresy in their souls. Mary’s existence made life very difficult for Elizabeth, as Elizabeth, being the child of a second marriage where the first wife was still alive, was considered illegitimate. Mary was executed by Elizabeth’s command in 1587. Elizabeth herself died in 1603, leaving the throne of England to James of Scotland. A further unsettled period began, leading directly to the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. The RCs thought they could win over or otherwise wrest control from James. A lot of this influence came from continental Europe, but as well as the RC support from overseas, there were also a lot of English supporters in very wealthy families. The plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament was really the last gasp of such determined efforts by the RCs to bring back England into their fold. Even now, England is considered a Protestant country and there are not so many RCs about. The conspirators were horridly executed (if drawn and quartered, this occurred after they were hanged, fortunately). I don’t know how they were all killed, I doubt HDQ for all of them, and suspect further burnings at the stake. Traditionally, in England, a huge bonfire is built. In previous years, a stuffed effigy of Guy Fawkes was plonked on top of it. It burned to the cheers of the crowd surrounding the bonfire. Lots of fireworks were also let off, symbolising the gunpowder explosions that didn’t happen. The huge public spectacle bonfire persists, though increasingly rare as insurance companies refuse to insure against accidents. In many places, the home (garden) bonfire is still cherished and people have bonfire parties with their friends and neighours. Haven’t seen a Guy Fawkes in years. When I was a kid, we used to sit in the street with our “guy” collecting change from passers-by. And there were contests in primary school for the “best guy”. Firework displays have become more and more common and some of them are pretty awesome fireworks too. http://www.gunpowder-plot.org (or Google "Gunpowder plot"). So really, you see, it was all a war of the cults. And it’s still going on, just more subtly. For those that are interested (and still with me), traditional fare is: Baked potato (sometimes cooked in the embers of the bonfire) Roast chestnuts Ale I didn’t have any of these and stayed home instead. Boring boring.

I seem to remember (very distantly) something about CG publishing a book that was "edited posthumously" by VPW. I remember because Jo-n Re-nolds was outraged by it - I suspected at the time that it wasn't so much that JRR was outraged but someone else (possibly a someone whose initials include L and C and M). Never knew more than that, though. I wonder how many copies sold? Does anyone claim having bought one? European believers?? Current CG fellowship group attenders??

Turn your eyes upon Jesus :unsure: by Victor Paul Wierwille Unknown Binding: 167 pages Publisher: The Way in Great Britain (1990) ISBN: 1870676351 Well, this is a new one for the collection. Found it whilst having a rummage around in Amazon for something else. How interesting that it wasn't published by American Christian Press...

Thanks, Thomas. Is the CES work any good? Strange, I am so sick of hearing about VWP's - stuff - that I'm more likely to give credence to something (anything) that doesn't have his name on it. Well, not really, but I just don't rate the things with his name on very highly.

Hey you lot, it was so nice of you to ring and shout "Hello" at me on Saturday! :) Wish I could have been there. Another time, maybe. In the meantime, I'll just imagine the spare ribs and blueberry cheesecake - mmmm-mmmmm...

Are you sure these songs weren't a subtle send-up?

Well then, these sound (let's say) original to TWI which at least is something. I wonder that (if) VPW didn't plagiarise something or other put out by (say) the JWs, since they are a big group into JCNG. Any ideas on who would have been in the Research Team at the time? I know Walter C had been in the RT at one time but was "disposed of"; but that was well after both books were published. Can't recall any comments from "VP & Me" but that was a long time ago. Yes, he should have said "edit" if it was a group effort (wonder how much VPW did actually put in?) and the other contributors should have been identified and acknowledged. That would, however, have required of VPW a meekness and humility that was demanded but never demonstrated. Slightly off topic, but what books are you talking about, WW, under your point B?

Kinda ties in nicely with Skyrider's thread on Imprisoned without Bars. Not that, at the time, anybody from TWI thought that they were imprisoned.

Suspect those Birth to Corps papers were (or became) just a way of finding out what buttons you have that could perhaps still be pressed. Manipulation, rather than manifestation of blessings.

Take courage, it is hard to "reassemble" yourself, but I find that the pieces fit together better than they ever did before. What's more, I like the end result so much more. Don't forget to add some extra bits like compassion, patience, forgiveness and longsuffering.

A quickie "in rez" tale. A big event was coming up, can't remember what. Sp.ptnr had lovingly sent me a beautiful bouquet of flowers; he knew we would be busy and wanted to bless me. As usual I was on beverage crew and knew I would hardly see my bed during this event (long hours). So I brought the flowers down and arranged them in the main lobby where I knew I would be serving most and everyone could enjoy them, not just me. I got told to remove them. Asked why - it was because "there weren't any on the table in the dining room lobby and the people getting drinks there might wonder why" (I have an idea he said they might get jealous, but I can't really imagine he did say that - maybe it was the overall impression). I split the flowers into two bunches and put some on each table. It still wasn't good enough. The flowers went back to my overheated room and I peered at them through the matchsticks holding my eyelids apart as often as I could. Often wondered: would anyone really get upset if one beverage table had a few flowers on it and another some distance away didn't?

Thanks, Dan. Have printed it off so that I can study at leisure. I rather imagined both Raf and WordWolf would have a lot to say on the subject(s).

Just wondering. So much of PFAL is plagiarised. The Blue Book has been heavily criticised (Raf has had some interesting things to say). Haven't seen much on the other four books. Haven't seen either JCOP or JCNG being commented on, only referred to. Anyone got anything to say?

Agh, those horror words that they beat us with, "meek" and "humble". Aagh, my head hurts!! Yeah, let's ban people from asking questions. Let's ban them from using their God-given brains. Not a huge deal??? Seeking the truth??? If people are really seeking the truth they'd be better at the Cafe. Can Paw stick a pointer to the Cafe on their page (he, he)? Ban people??? LOL. Not legalistic, then. (Sorry, thought I was over this red rag stuff but clearly not)

Notes re Weekend in the Word – Bath 20 and 21.10.06 A weekend in the Word in Bath, England, took place on 20-21 October. Rev Wayne Clapp came from CFF. Present were people from four or five cities in the UK as well as one or two from other countries. Overall, though, it was quite a small gathering comprising people who were ex-TWI, ex-Gartmore and some who have never been part of either. Surprisingly, there were a number of local believers who did not come. Different people came on each day, some coming to both days and some to only one. Some of them I haven’t seen in over 20 years. Catching up was like seeing them last week except that all had been hurt but were now much mellower and deeper, having recovered from their personal hurt. The location was in village hall, and the entire interior had been washed, polished and was immaculately clean – done mostly by two male believers, one of whom has only been a Christian for about 3 years. Everything was decent and in order. These lads chose to wash all the chairs (shades of Rock of Ages) and vacuum the seats of the chairs; tables and chairs for dining were beautifully laid out (all this done without a single piece of string) and the kitchen was immaculate. (Way Corps couldn’t have done it better.) There was abundance of food provided by the hosts and on the day lots of people helped to put together cooked food, fresh sandwiches, lay the perishable stuff on tables, etc. Nobody was asked to do anything. Everyone just chose to pitch in and do what they could. Wayne taught on Saturday from Psalms and 2 Kings 18 & 19. He taught on standing firm in the midst of adversity, when besieged (from Kings) and that the people were just one day away from complete deliverance (it was that record where the women are fighting over whose son to kill and eat next – how desperate is that!!). Just one day from deliverance!! On Sunday he taught from 2 Kings and Chronicles on Hezekiah putting things in order right from the very beginning of his reign, on preparing his heart to do God’s Word and the resultant blessings to all Israel, not just Judea. That enabled Hezekiah’s people to withstand when they were besieged. He compared records from 2 Kings and from Chronicles and also gave references where appropriate from Isaiah, although we didn’t look at those. He wanted to make the point that preparation is the key to receiving the fullness of what’s available from God. What Wayne taught on Saturday and Sunday was powerful and important, but the major thing that I want to share with you on this site is how he conducted himself. Here on GSC, we have all been hurt and seen and experienced vile and unspeakable things from “leadership”, whether from CG or LCM or other folks connected with TWI. None of us are strangers to the blatant bullying from some self-appointed “men of God”. I still remember my first teaching session by CG, at Gartmore (man, there was hardly room for anyone else in the room, his ego was so big) followed by a brief and rather scary accidental meeting with him at some point during the same weekend. That still makes me shudder. He made me feel like I was too far below his exaltedness to be worthy of speaking to, and he wafted me off like a troublesome fly. Last weekend was a universe[i/] away from TWI or Gartmore. As far as the east is from the west. Very tender and loving. I am not particularly flying the flag for Wayne, I only went "for a look" but it is sooo different with him. I’ve heard him teach before but can’t recall actually speaking with him. Absolutely no ego. I was visiting and later stayed at the home where he was staying, so all in all got to spend a fair bit of time with him. He needed a shirt ironing. After double checking myself (do I want to do this, or is it expected from a WC point of view?), I offered to iron his shirt. He absolutely refused to let me. "Too WC," he smiled. He put everyone before himself. Crikey, the man was sleeping in a TENT in the cold and rain - it rained very heavily in the middle of the night the tent leaked, and the airbed he was on went down twice - and still he wouldn't come in the house and take someone's bedroom. He was sharing the tent with another guy, just an “ordinary” believer, nobody high up. He simply would not do anything that would cause even slight difficulty to anyone. I was there! I was in the house!! In "my" own room for one night (kid's bedroom) - I even wanted and would have preferred to stay in the tent (love camping). He is NOT a leader who wants to be served, but to serve. There were other guests, and although it was patently obvious that Wayne really wanted to go to bed, he just sat up with the rest of us, fellowshipping as best he could. Over several evenings, not once did he thrust an opinion on anyone or try preaching at us or monopolising the time. In fact, he rarely spoke unless spoken to first. He helped at take-down after the meetings, just like any other person, not pushing or directing but just helping where he could, hauling tables and chairs and ferrying stuff to the (self-appointed) washing up crew in the kitchen. Can't say I have seen many other "leaders" behave like that... (long pause for thought) - no, others have only told the worker bees what to do. He was so unobtrusive and quiet - he just got on with things, very low-key. It wasn't a show, it was just his heart to bless. So all in all, it was a truly refreshing and enjoyable weekend. There was real and unfeigned love of God in and towards all and after the hardness of TWI, it was rest to the soul.

"Slow him down"? Paw, are you joking? Try... a rocket launcher into outer space. That'd get rid of him. He has caused a lot of hurt here.

This is a terribly difficult topic and there is no "one size fits all" answer. It was abuse, pure (?) and simple, but abuse of a special kind. Some men (as Coolchef is honest to indicate) find it very difficult to think of their women sexually active with another man - especially in this sort of situation. Other men (P@ul All-n) have the guts to go confront it head on. But that was then and may not be an appropriate response now. For the women involved, if they do not want to tell their husbands, it might be very helpful and a great release to find some other trusted woman friend(s) to talk to (perhaps even another so-abused woman, if one can be located). Of course, this assumes that the marriage is still intact. Far too many marriages are not, or have already been seriously damaged by the other shenanigans of TWI.

Hmm, think if anyone in my twig had asked permission to go to a cake-making class on a twig night I would have said no, outright. (Joke) No, that is, unless she brought the fruits of her labor back to twig occasionally and got all the women complaining about breaking their diets! :) :) :) :) (She would have been more than happy to do so, I'm sure! What a lovely lady she sounds) DittoDoojabble: You have got to be joking ... haven't you?I do remember at HQ he kicked Rev Thomas out because his daughter had died as a result of a drug overdose. People were forbidden on pain of being M&A'd themselves from contacting Rev Thomas's family to convey condolences. Reason: it was Rev Thomas's poor oversight that had caused his daughter's death. Therefore he was not worthy either of his ministry (peeling spuds) or of compassion from the household.