Twinky

Impossible for Mike to attempt to explain anything "quickly" and doubly impossible for him to explain without obfuscating with further irrelevancies. It's all about Mike.

Mike derails every thread. He doesn't want to look at what is being posted and consider it in a non-PFAL way. He wants to "teach" us what he thinks we've "forgotten." By derailing every thread, Mike wants us to look at him. Ergo, Mike wants us to become mini-Mikes. Not even sure he wants us to look at VPW's books, since Mike himself claims to have discovered stuff that Wierwille hasn't (=didn't manage to plagiarise). ======= This seems a better option. Heb 12:2 - Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith... Which brings us back neatly to the "absent Christ" - how, please, can we fix our eyes on something that's absent, that's not there?

Some of us look at Jesus Christ and his accomplishments. Some of us also look at our magnificent God and his wonderful works. Some of us read various versions of the Bible to try to get a fuller picture and understanding. Some of us study other people's theological thinking, and then check that out. Some of us look at the Christ in our Christian brothers and sisters, and endeavour to learn from them, too. But... Some look at thieves, bullies, and corrupt individuals. Some are still stuck in a rut that has ever deepening sides, such that the bigger picture gets smaller and smaller.

It's always astonished me that a church has a "board of directors." Huh? That's "company talk." My local church is run by the parochial church council (PCC), elected by the congregation. The PCC also selects the minister in charge of the local church, in consultation with the congregation. The PCC is independent of the minister but they work closely together. The wider church is run by bishops and archbishops, and by synod, to which the minister (and all clergy) are subject. The recognised head of the church is Jesus Christ. There are no "directors." No "president." No "chairman."

And there are lots of things that a blinded mind hates. Truth, for one.

So why confine your reading to, basically, one discredited man? And not study the works of a number of reputable theologians, authors, etc. T-Bone recommends some very good sources. And he always references his sources.

Whereas a "god" promoted by a liar and a thief (not to mention various other faults) is a good god?????????? Remember that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, so just be a bit careful about the god you cling to, Mike.

That's it! And prior to that, you'd been encouraged to (and had) cut off all your "worldly" relationships - friends and family. You've nowhere to go. You're tied to the cult - until they cut the ties and let you fall into total oblivion. They don't care what happens to you. Well, God cares. The Good Shepherd comes out to seek you as one of the lost, when the 99 are safe. There are safe places to go - some churches, some other non-religious places. I'm sure he's seeking the ones still lost in TWI too, but they're obstinately hiding in rocks and caves.

Thanks, but no thanks.

It's pretty hard to step on a cat such that it will die. Can't imagine how that would happen innocently. Shot the kittens. Hmph. Real love of God's creation there. Kept the dog in a kennel. An anxious dog, at that. Perhaps that animal got shot too. If you really can't stand having an animal in the household, give it away to someone who will love and care for it. Don't abuse it. Grr! BecomingMe, if you can, get your own cat(s) and dog(s). They give so much unconditional love. And they ask so little of their owners. Having small animal pets is often where kids first learn to love.

Thought this was hilarious. Watch | Facebook

Mind you, even good priests could have difficulties with their sons: 1 Sam 8:1ff When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. Dishonest gain. Bribery (love of money!). Perverted justice. (But didn't, it appears, sexually abuse women.) And that led directly to the appointment of the first king of Israel, one Saul (verses 4, 5), much against the wishes of Samuel himself, who clearly foresaw trouble. So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[b] us, such as all the other nations have.” We don't know what became of the sons, but they lost any part of the larger story - in which they too could have become great and as deeply revered as their father.

And the twist on the copies of TWI in splinter fellowships is definitely tainted.

Anything VPW put together himself and "taught" - definitely. I wouldn't discount the original sources of the material he plagiarised. Some of those are probably very good. But the twist put on the copies taints the copies badly. In any event: 1 Th 5:21 (NASB) but examine everything; hold firmly to that which is good which means, really check it out, think about it in detail, and how it fits with the rest of what you know about the subject and about the Bible in general. The reverse of "holding firmly to that which is good" is "abandon, discard, throw away that which is false or faulty." I think we do a lot of that, here at GSC.

Don't patronise me, Mike. Just. Don't.

Appreciate your questioning and honest minds, Raf and T-Bone. I do think that codified religion and many hierarchical church systems are a big turn-off. And that includes TWI's branch of hierarchy. There are times (and many Christians admit to this) when you wonder (or doubt) why you believe something, why you believe in God, whether it's all a big con job. In the same way, perhaps, as one wonders why they're married to this annoying person, why they don't walk out on these disruptive kids, why they don't just get rid of the annoying pet. And then, the wonderer remembers why they choose to believe rather than doubt, to stay, to keep, etc. That's honestly loving. Do we not make loving God too complex with manmade rules, strictures, words, robes, etc? And we forget, sometimes, that it's not just a personal, individual love, but a corporate / community love too. A way of living with other people. Micah 6:8 What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Matt 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets Mark 12:30,31 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ g There is no commandment greater than these. 2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means [including over-complicated churchy stuff], as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Raf, you act in a loving, kind way, taking care of your wife and kids, trying to avoid fights and looking after the needy. You're keeping it simple, bro. I respect your position (just as I respect the position of a friend of mine, a muslim convert from Catholicism), know the reasons why, but I don't properly comprehend the decisions either of you made.

Just to bring this back a bit to the "absent Christ" - Jesus is our advocate, our mediator, before God. If God does not bring consequences, why would we need an advocate and mediator before God? Jesus is Our Advocate with the Father 1 John 2:1, NIV My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. Jesus is Our Intercessor Romans 8:34b, ESV Christ Jesus… is at the right hand of God…. interceding for us. Hebrews 7:24-25, NIV but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Jesus is Our Mediator 1 Timothy 2:5, NLT …there is only one God, and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity… Christ Jesus. Or is Jesus so busy mediating that he doesn't have time to be with us in the present?

From the "Absent Christ" thread: Thinking on this, and about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Eli was a bad priest, a bad minister. He only weakly told his sons not to mess about with the women. I find myself wondering if he too had indulged in his younger days, basically taught his sons by his example, and therefore felt he couldn't reprove them. (Of course, I might be libelling in saying this, but he's hardly going to sue me.) It's not a sin that God laid at his door in this instance; who knows what went beforehand that isn't recorded? One doesn't get to be a bad priest in one incident. In later centuries, Jesus said this: (Matt 23:15) “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. Does that just refer to pedantry over the law? Or to other sins as well? - some of which are listed in Mt 23.

Thinking on this, and on a recent thread I started about Eli not reproving and stopping his sons from sleeping with the women at the entrance to the temple, I find myself thinking that VPW not only did not reprove LCM in his wandering habits - he actively encouraged it. Might expand that thought a bit more on the other thread, as this doesn't exactly fit with this thread.

Interesting, WW.. I checked The Oxford Companion to the Bible (ed. Metzger & Coogan) for more information "Unknown God. A dedication found on an Athenian altar according to Acts 17:23. Altars belonging to unknown gods (plural) at Olympia and elsewhere were probably aimed at satisfying divinities who had been overlooked, but they do not explain the singular formulation in Acts. Because votive offerings were connected to specific prayers, it is unlikely that an individual who had received aid would make a dedication to an unknown divinity. There is no evidence that either Stoics or gnostics addressed or worshipped the supreme being as an unknown god. The most likely reference is to the anonymous altars (ie, bearing no inscription) erected to local divinities throughout Athens under Solon. In Roman literature, these altars are sometimes cited as dedications to unknown gods (always plural). Whatever the source, the Areopagus speech reveals both the importance of relating the Christian message to broader cultural assumptions and the distinctiveness of Christian monotheism." (Contributed by Robert Stoops, Associate Professor, Dept of Liberal Studies, Western Washington University, Bellingham) Solon was a local aristocrat and powerful administrator. Here's a lengthy Wikipedia article about him. Solon - Wikipedia The article gives some interesting background to the cultural situation in Athens and the wider Mediterranean area at the time.

Correction to above post. Can't edit it now.

In church we are looking at 1 Samuel. I nearly fell off my chair when the reading was 1 Sam 3 and verse 13 hit me like ... well, I almost missed the rest of the reading. Fortunately, I had a Bible in my hands to read as well as reading the screen. Do look at all the variant readings for this verse. 1 Samuel 3:13 I told him that I would judge his house forever for the iniquity of which he knows, because his sons blasphemed God and he did not restrain them. (biblehub.com) Eli's sons blasphemed God. Made themselves vile. Brought a curse upon themselves. Did wickedly. Were cursing God. Sons "reviled the people" (Lamsa Bible). The Strong's notes contain this: blasphemed God מְקַֽלְלִ֤ים (mə·qal·lîm) Verb - Piel - Participle - masculine plural Strong's Hebrew 7043: 1) to be slight, be swift, be trifling, be of little account, be light 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to be slight, be abated (of water) 1a2) to be swift 1a3) to be trifling, be of little account 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be swift, show oneself swift 1b2) to appear trifling, be too trifling, be insignificant 1b3) to be lightly esteemed 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to make despicable 1c2) to curse 1d) (Pual) to be cursed 1e) (Hiphil) 1e1) to make light, lighten 1e2) to treat with contempt, bring contempt or dishonour 1f) (Pilpel) 1f1) to shake 1f2) to whet 1g) (Hithpalel) to shake oneself, be moved to and fro Various commentaries (click within the page above) refer to this in various less than lovely ways. Gill's commentary calls them vile and contemptible. The Bible reading in church was supposedly from NIV but it described Eli's sons as "CONTEMPTIBLE." I can't find a version of NIV that says this, but I did find on the above page a note that said the Masoretic and the Septuagint versions use the word "contemptible." You can see Strong's definition above. Ugh! Who could stand God saying they - because of their behaviour - were contemptible? I shudder to think of it. "Vile" - sounds horrible. "Blasphemed" - brush it off. (A bit common, what? We hardly think of it these days) But to have God think of one as "contemptible" - now that is scary. Scare-ee.

Glad you get this, Mike. Because, although you might think that VPW might have confessed his sins, he never changed his ways but continued raping women for years. As also did his protege, LCM. Prov 20:11 - Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. (How much more a supposed minister of religion??????? )

Note the chorus for the above is NOT: Turn your eyes upon Wierwille Look full at his PFAL And the things of earth will grow strangely dim In the light of its gloating and lies