Twinky

Haven't looked in on this thread for a while, and then Isaw that Pawtucket had posted that long and excellent response from John Juedes. John, thanks for your response. It really puts a different perspective on things. Not even a drop in 7 oceans... They closed the doors of our minds so completely that even if JC himself had appeared we wouldn't have recognized him. Paw, thanks for finding this and posting it. JJ's perspective is always enlightening. Somewhat off topic, and because I reviewed posts from way back, I found this: How many times did I get, "You're too emotional!" yelled at me? Always by a male in some sort of "superior" leadership posiition. Usually because I was excited about the forthcoming event we were all preparing for (especially in rez). If I'm happy, I show it. Is that wrong? I always thought that God gave us emotions so that we could be happy, enjoy things, etc. He didn't have to; He could have made us incapable of emotion. Robots. Machines. But Rascal's post and the response of others to it has shown me that was just yet another form of bullying women -just like so much other abuse - not specific to me at all except that I am female. Thanks, another step along the road to recovery. :D (thought I'd give you some emotion, orat least emoticons. Because I CAN!) End "off topic."

I don't recall much teaching about martyrs. It wasn't something that got taught in the Martindale years. LCM was more interested in devil spirits/genuine spiritual suspicion (!). As with VPW, what other Christians (at any time) did or suffered really didn't matter. The things Wordwolf says are familiar. I have heard both views. Thre are probably also other constructions - depending on what other churches teach. Geisha makes a good point, about the sufferings endured by Christian churches in some other countries. They stand firm despite the certain knowledge of persecution. The little churches (usually in someone's home) are growing. That means people must be witnessing, holding forth the gospel convincingly enough that people WANT to know more despite the likelihood of persecution. Think of China, India, many Muslim countries. People are imprisoned, beaten, killed. And we in the "more advanced" societies of the west...are afraid to mention the gospel to the next door neighbour, in case they just don't like it.

Wonderful, Chas! Hope you all have a really special time. Good for all of you. Do let us know how it goes!!

Heck, anyone who's born again is "possessed." They are a possession, purchased with a great price. But what TWI meant was that our actions were controlled by DS. Possession in the sense of control, not ownership. Control of thinking patterns...anybody think their thinking patterns were controlled while they were in TWI? (Anybody NOT think that, LOL!) There might be some DS that cause people or things to do bizarre actions. Showy stuff. But the cleverer forms of possession would be subtle errors of doctrine in the mind. Not blatant "sideshows." The father of lies has his henchmen foster subtle lies and keeps knocking people off doctrine - actually this is even covered in PFAL, but as means of keeping a hold on us. The rampant abuse in TWI in sexual, physical and emotional terms is all an outcome of DS control of those at the top. I don't think I got the names to my face but probably after I'd been M&A'd. I just got face meltings for thinking carnally when I did something sensible instead of something bizarre. I know plenty who were said to be possessed and I looked at them and usually thought how very sensible they were. Though perhaps not obedient to what they'd been instructed to do, which instruction wasn't always sensible. (edited because somehow ended up as a double post)

Beautiful. Lots to be thankful for.

Obstructing traffic? Resisting arrest? Looks to me like the cyclist was taking evasive action to avoid the police officer's own obstruction of traffic. Thank goodness for mobile phones to record such incidents. If it ever goes to court, I hope whoever hears the case against the cyclist will give him some significant compensation payable by the Police Department. D'ya reckon the police officer thought the cyclist's name was Rodney King?

Garth, I suffered a shedload of abuse in TWI, in no small part because I liked to use my God-given brain and my God-given ability to think. And if I ventured into critical thinking or even remotely considering that another way to do something might be better or more efficient or less mind-numbing, I got such a load of BS and spiteful accusations of "thinking carnally" and "using my five senses". I had more than my fair share of personal face-meltings from LCM. Thank you, I WILL NOT put up with the same abuse from you. Feel free to apologise. I simply meant, as it seems (at least right now) that we are unable to get to the other side of the galaxy (let alone the universe) in our lifetimes, if God wants us to know he will tell us. No way we can find out that by our five senses. And frankly, I don't know if we need to know. Plenty of things to get right on this planet before we find another to wreak havoc upon. I'm not anti-exploration and have a very inquisitive nature. I am grateful for the inquisitiveness of others that has brought so many advances in our society in the material beenfits we enjoy, eg, in medicine and things to stuff into our houses. Many things are a spin-off from space programs (eg, Teflon!).

Dmiller said: For sure there aren’t many references to Angels in the NT but then there aren’t generally in the Bible. Here are some references in Acts and subsequently there are lots of references in Revelation, which are obviously a little different, and clearly angels are very busy then whereas our role is not mentioned! But hey, Peter and Philip among others received visits and assistance from angels. Are Peter and Philip more deserving, that they get special treatment? We were taught that the power of God as shown in Acts is still available. So why not the supporting cast as well? What Wierwille taught on this is rubbish. Angels were around and still are around. Maybe their job description has changed a little in respect of those born again; maybe not. Those references in Rev 2 and 3 suggest in fact that angels have a very specific responsibility to care for the "church" to which they are assigned. (Was the angel assigned to TWI doing a good job? LOL) There are probably a whole lot more incidents where angels have helped believers and unbelievers alike but simply not been recognised. Ac 5:19 - But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Ac 8:26 - And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. Ac 10:3 - He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. Ac 10:7 - And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; Ac 10:22 - And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. Ac 11:13 - And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Ac 12:7 - And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands. Ac 12:8 - And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me. Ac 12:9 - And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision. Ac 12:10 - When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him. Ac 12:11 - And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews. Ac 27:23 - For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Ga 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Re 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Re 2:1 - Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Re 2:8 - And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Re 2:12 - And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; Re 2:18 - And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; Re 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Re 3:7 - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Re 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Re 22:8 - And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Re 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And of course, this one, which “doesn’t apply to us”: Heb 13:2 - Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Wierwille based his view of angels on this verse: Heb 1:14 - Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? As "shall be" is in the future, he reasoned, once we are the heirs of salvation the future in that respect has been attained. But we haven't fully attained salvation and infact "the gift of holy spirit" is itself expressed to be only a token or an earnest. In fact, legally an "heir" is the one who will inherit something in the future - not the one who already has it. (But I didn't check the Greek word on this, maybe heirs is just an approximate translation.) And the context of Heb 14 is not so much concerned with *us* as with the Lord Jesus Christ. (edited to add the Heb 1:14 reference, which I couldn't remember the reference for, originally)

Geisha: You're forgiven! Have a beer!! Tom: yes, I have wondered about the "carbon-based" idea too. Life as we know it is carbon-based. But that's the unique blend of materials available on our planet. Maybe there are planets out there that have a different sort of structure altogether and have a life form based on plutoyaddayaddaplong or something, some element we may not even know about yet. Maybe life on earth was "created" as the first carbon-based life forms? And life forms on planet Zog were created based on plutoyaddayaddaplong? Sunesis: star gazing certainly is fascinating. And we can't even see a tiny fraction of what's out there. Lovely to lie outside with a pair of binoculars looking at the stars, though. Unless one's fortunate enough to have a telescope somewhere indoors. Well, God knows what he's put together, where and how. If he wants us to know, he can tell us. Perhaps he hasn't told us because he doesn't want us to get out there and start destroying or dominating it, like too much life on this planet. But that's a whole nother issue.

Great thread, this. Thanks for starting it. Wonderful to have some positive stories. It could be that the person or people who just show up at a time of need or come and offer help are themselves just inspired by God to go and offer help. Just normal human beings like all of us, who just happen to be “there” at the right time. Like Philip in the Book of Acts. Others definitely could be non-human intervention. I also went off the road in a very bad storm. It had turned into real monsoon-like conditions. The weather had delayed me and I was going to be late. I was meeting a friend in a little town half-way between our respective cities (which are 800 km apart). I swung around a gentle corner at a road junction - too fast, and the road was very wet and I oversteered. Into the ditch and into a fence post. It was still raining hard, and it was quite late at night and in the middle of nowhere. I was concerned that the friend would be concerned about me being late and I had no means of contact (pre cell phone). I had scarcely seen a car all night (this being a remote unpopulated area). I had no idea where the nearest house was, much less a phone box or a town, to call for help. But within just a few minutes on this road - where there was hardly any traffic - two men in a sturdy vehicle pulled up, saw the problem, laughed kindly at me, hitched my car to their vehicle, and towed me out of the steep ditch. And then just drove away. Oh, and the rain eased off at the same time. The only damage to my car was a very slight dent on the radiator grille, which was so unnoticeable that I immediately forgot about it. The wooden fence post was sheered off at the base but still hanging on its wires and functional as a fence. I was not delayed on my journey by more than a few minutes. I was hugely aware that the incident could have been so very much more serious and drove carefully and more slowly after that. Angels? I didn’t think so at the time. I took them for local farmers who were perhaps on their way home from the pub or something. I never took them for other than human beings. But the whole event seemed completely miraculous to me: that I was uninjured, my car undamaged, and these men with the perfect vehicle and the perfect equipment arrived at the perfect time to haul my car out. I still think they were just men – but who knows? Another much more recent incident. Another country. A friend (another exWayfer) was coming to visit for the weekend. He caught the train and I went to meet him at the local station. But he was engrossed in conversation with someone on the train ("witnessing") and although he could see me banging on the window, didn’t recognise me in time and the train departed the station, he still on the train. I didn’t know what to do. He might have been able to catch another train back from the next station – if there was a “next train” at that hour of the night. I mused what to do and then decided to head for the next station anyway. It’s about 10 miles away. By this time the train had a good head start. The journey by car to the next station is along narrow country lanes, very dark, very winding, and I didn’t know where the station was, exactly. I put my foot down and soon reached the town and the station was clearly marked. As I got there, a train was just about to depart for where I had just come from. Was my friend on it, going back? I ran the length of the train to see but it drew away. I dawdled round the tiny station and crossed the bridge to the other platform, wondering what to do now. I decided to go back to my car. As I crossed the bridge back… a train drew in on the other platform. It was the train that had just left where my friend should have got off. My name was called. My friend had got off the train and was calling to me. I don’t know how he did this as he wouldn’t have been expecting me at the next station. How did this happen? I know I drove very fast (ignoring speed limits), and there was no other traffic on the road in either direction. And the train’s route is somewhat longer than the road route. But still… it was weird. And the car journey took much less time than it should have done. My friend is convinced my car was “angel propelled”. Maybe he is right. Or maybe it was all just happy coincidence. We had a really good weekend together. He is still laughing about my angel-propelled car. He says he has had angel intervention on his behalf on a couple of occasions and the tales he tells echo those on this thread, sudden intervention by a stranger from nowhere at a time of need, and then the stranger is nowhere to be found.

Well now, that's a good question. Let's keep it low: not the sort of life that can think enough to build a space ship to look at us - but high enough that it can think. Find its own food/power source. Reproduce in some way.

To prevent a further derail of the Inerrancy thread, which has already been derailed by a discussion about Intelligent Design (or not), can I pose this question: Do you think there is life elsewhere in the universe? Life in its many forms is so very diverse on this tiny planet. It thrives in temperatures both way too hot and way too cold; or in environments way too full of gasses that have previously been deemed unsupportive of life or too lacking in what has been considered necessary to life… If “create” means to bring into being that which was not there before – is that restricted to this planet? To this solar system? Could not life have been created (or evolved, if you prefer) on Planet Zog on the other side of the universe (not that there is much likelihood of us ever knowing for certain)? There may – or may not – be life on Mars or any other planet on our solar system – but do you think that precludes life outside our solar system? Answers on the back of your table napkins please! And no, wait staff needn’t accompany this discussion with David Bowie’s “Life on Mars?” which I refrained from adding. You may however consume a Mars bar whilst considering your response.

Linda, you forgot the one who has the piece of string. Can't forget that!

There are some threads that started out quite interesting but have deteriorated to name calling and gone so far off topic that I simply can't be bothered. So if anything interesting or illuminating was said - it's been lost, at least to me. Kids, go fight outside in the playground. Leave the forums to the ones who can speak civilly. Is it my turn to get roasted now? Wait a moment while I grab an asbestos suit.

Eyes, I'd like to hear your angel story too. Would you like perhaps to start a thread on Angel Awareness? Others may have good stories to add too.

*Make sure I know where all the money goes. Often pay by plastic even for small amounts, so that I can see on my bank statement where I've been spending. *Cycle as much as possible. *Built a garden and am now growing my own veg. Surpluses (later in the year) will be frozen. *Freecycle (in and out) as much as possible. Try to meet the other person half way if possible. *Turn off unnecessary lights. *Have replaced ordinary incandescent light bulbs with longlife ones *Raid chairty shops (the modern-day plurality palace) for clothes and unimportant household stuff (lampshades??) *Got broadband not dial-up (now I can enjoy the Cafe much more!!!!) *Give male friends haircuts (easy if you have a hair clipper) - saves them some money Have never used a dryer (prefer outside). Prefer to make own lunch rather than to buy out. (edited coz it managed to double post somehow)

Mark, you're right, sorry, I forgot that and read in the forbidden part... hehehe But Shaz, you must know that revelation cannot be analyzed, only ascertained. Analyzing the whims of TWI...really! The "spiritual perception and awareness" seemed to promote more finding a devil spirit under every rock (or in every person) rather than seeing the Godly side (could we say, positive?) of spirituality. Everybody (okay, a little exaggeration) saw devil spirits; how many saw angels or spirits acting on God's behalf? 2 Kgs 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And that's not because we're "Athletes of the Spirit" now (forgetting Eph 6, of course) - it's that the teaching ceased being focused on God...what you look at, you become...remember that?

Yes, the truth certainly was separated. Left us with only error. An interesting one, this. When I was out Lightbearers (3 times, but one time the whole in rez Corps was considered abject failures, so they threatened to bin all of us but later sent us out again to do better) - anyway, lots of people came back with these tales of devil spirits they had seen or exorcized or what have you. Me, I didn't see any of that. Dealt with my own challenges, got on doing what we were supposed to be doing, didn't see anything particularly unusual. I wondered if God had left me out of something or I was a real spiritual dullard. I don't now; now I wonder what kind of hysteria or desire to please had infected those who did experience these things that they claimed to have seen. Or whether they were just plain lying. This thread has mused on gray areas. The more time I've been "out", the more I've become aware in a real way (not just having read them) of the many scriptures that say the opposite of other scriptures TWI revered. In other words, it's NOT "one size fits all." A big one they NEVER discussed and only hinted at, in passing, in PFAL with the "three fingers pointing back at you" analogy (which analogy was just part of the "hook"to fool you into thinking what a thoughtful and careful ministry this was) is this one: Mt 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Just think how different things might have been had this become one of the Corps retemories!

This is the only diet I've ever tried and I did it for a month or so because I really wanted to get into a dress I'd bought. And for a few months before. I'd slothed around and not taken my usual exercise but continued to eat as if still vigorously exercising. I was shocked at how fast the weight disappeared, including that little football that sits just below the belt (!). I am not naturally a fat person and have weighed pretty much the same since I was about 20 - well I weighed 9 1/2 stone before I went in the Corps, put on an extra 8lb there and got to 10 stone (140 lb) and thought my face looked better at that. So that's where I hover, give or take 8lb. What I missed on the Atkins diet was eating fresh fruit, of which I eat loads, but apart from berries the dieter can't eat much fruit especially in the early stages. From what I've heard, the carbo promoters have been hijacked by the flour and sugar producers. So what are they going to promote? Carbs, one way or the other. It might not be so good for other things, though depending on the state of one's arteries. But then, diabetes from too many carbs, or furred-up arteries from too much fat...choose your poison.

This thread as I understand it is not so much about abuse but how one feels when one's own report of abuse is not acknowledged and worse, "proof" is required by some posters. To those posters who STILL express doubt, can I suggest you consider what circumstantial evidence is? And what is a "pattern of behavior"? Legally, those also can also be taken into consideration when considering the veracity of accusations. Proof, in effect. The tales of abuse of various kinds - spiritual, physical, emotional, everything - are far too wide over far too long a period to be discounted. Either that, or there are a heck of a lot of liars and fantasists who post on this site. Cake: it is VERY healing to realise - it wasn't just you. It was you and him and her and those people over there. It's not that misery likes company; it's acknowledging that what happened actually did happen; and that you were not to blame. It wasn't a one-off targetted at you, but part of a general pattern. Let it out, then you can let it go. It's still a part of your past but its hold on you will be weakened. You keep shining that light and exposing the wicked works! Most people here are friends and on your side. DWBH: thanks for the further miserable bit of TWI history. The more that's exposed, the more shocking it is. To think that at one time, I really believed that kids were raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord - in loving kindness and tenderness... (scream)

A lot of archaeological data does not align with the chronology of the Bible either. Nor do "documentary records" that exist in other contemporary cultures. Does that make the Bible untrue? In error rather than inerrant? Maybe in some things our all-too-finite understanding are lacking. Once people believed that this planet was the center of the universe and everything revolved around it, quite literally. This was based on their Biblical understanding. It was also believed that the Earth was completely flat and there was an "edge" some place that might be fallen off. Yet that does not negate the fact that this round planet is actually here and so far as we are currently aware is the only planet capable of supporting life (as we know it). And the further study now available means that anyone holding to those old beliefs today would be laughed at. Rather than looking at the Bible as an inerrant [historical] record, we really have to face up to it being, in fact, not being wholly accurate. That leaves us free to examine the truth or otherwise of what we might call "the heart behind the words". Larger truths, not myths, folklore, or misattributions. Some events are compressed or symbolic. In the same way that a good historical novel can bring life to the bare facts of a period of time, so the Bible can bring "life" to the lives of people in and through whom God worked. If you've prayed for and seen the power of God at work - you know that there's something there. This planet and we ourselves aren't just some cosmic accident. We need to understand God and the Bible bigger, wider, and deeper. {For the avoidance of doubt: I am not saying that the Bible is fiction!) edited for grammar

Hey Cindy! Can I have some of that, too, please?

Please carry on! This is something I myself am still wrestling with. In a professional sphere where critical thinking skills are vital, all mine are (even now) still not very sharp. At one time immediately post-TWI, they were completely out of the window but they really need honing. Mine were crushed by being told, every time I asked a question, "You're leaning to your own understaning/that's five senses stuff." T-Bone has done a lot of stuff about this and has made some good recommendations in the past which I am following through on. No doubt he will post later on this thread. I found a book in my local library called something like Do you know what you think? which had lots of yes/no answers and then analyzed logical fallacies and moral/ethical dilemmas. It was very good and there is an associated website - if I find it, I'll post.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. So, if you willingly sacrifice yourself - say, you are the last in a dangerous place, "holding the fort" while your friends/colleagues escape, knowing that you yourself would not escape but that death was certain - would that be suicide? What about a soldier in a war situation? What where someone is suffering from a terminal and very painful illness? If they manage to kill themselves and die a month before the illness would have killed them - is that a sin? TWI would say that they did not believe to be made whole. That seems a fatuous and belittling answer. Judas went out and "hanged himself" but there's no record that anyone jumped up and down and said, "devil spirits" - they just got on and did what they believed was necessary - appointing another to take his place. Back up a bit. Is despair a sin? Because that's why people commit (a "leading" word) suicide. Or not permitting one's burden to be shared, not talking about the problem? Would not a greater sin be not noticing someone's despair? If it is a sin, Jesus Christ died to take away the sins of the world. Of which suicide would be just one of trillions and gazillions. Does God "take" life? 1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (JC) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. I thought death was an enemy of God's, not one of his blessings.

What I don't understand is why Doctrinal is hidden away in the dungeon like something to be ashamed of. It's not with the other forums like ATW or Open. This should be a great place to discuss in particular some of the stuff we were taught in PFAL that we are now turning over in our minds; and to discuss new stuff. But what I have seen is people who think they know it all or being superior; or people who are just derisive. And many who drag a subject Off Topic. It's hard to discuss some stuff within churches because they don't know where we're coming from and it doesn't fit their own theology so they think it's crazy anyway. Surely Doctrinal is part of the Cafe self-help group just as much as other forums? As Oakspear says (and he sits the other side of the Cafe from me), he wants to know how he got fooled, how he was reeled in by Wierwillism. Have we ceased questing after Truth [as we see it] and quest after Trash instead? (edited to add Oak's exact words)