Twinky

Yes, you were in a cult. No, you weren't a cult-head. Glad you managed to keep a sound mind!

Jeff - and your post relates to "Serving the Lord with Gladness" - how, exactly? (shakes head, smiles kindly) Certainly unbelievers are capable of serving other people, and may be very good at it. However, are they serving the Lord. gladly or otherwise?

Wow, I just found this thread. I don't spend a lot of time in New Members, perhaps I should do more. Hey guys, don't you think that when someone new tentatively steps into the Cafe, holding out a hand in introduction, that she deserves a decent welcome? That she doesn't need to walk into an ongoing spat about who hit whom? Calm down a bit. Say hello nicely. Save the fight until she has settled down with a cup of coffee! Hey Lucy - Hi! Excuse the local residents. Some folks spend too much time in the bar ignoring the two drink limit. Your baptism of fire-y insults prepares you well. Have fun, hope you find lots of new friends here. :)

Snow??? Where do you live? Instead of a scythe, does the grim reaper have a hot air gun, being as it's obviously cold where you live? To "reap" the snowmen?

This is the KJV verse that has been so greatly used or misused, and became a cover-up: “That the ministry be not blamed” has become, “That TWI be not blamed.” So it was presented. We should accept all things, so that TWI would not be brought into disrepute. In particular, we should not begin legal proceedings, so that the ministry=TWI would not be embroiled in litigation and thereby brought into disrepute with unbelievers. But look. “Ministry” was never meant to mean an organization. “Ministry” meant “service”. It meant work, service to others, serving others. It meant washing feet (like Jesus did). In many versions of this verse of the Bible, “ministry” remains just “ministry” but later more modern versions, recognizing that the word has acquired a different meaning, translate “ministry” differently. Check these out: We do not want anyone to find fault with our work, so we try not to put obstacles in anyone's way. (Good News) Don't put it off; don't frustrate God's work by showing up late, throwing a question mark over everything we're doing. (The Message) Giving no cause for trouble in anything, so that no one may be able to say anything against our work; (Bible in Basic English) We don't give people any opportunity to find fault with how we serve. (God’s Word Translation) And this one, which dates back to about 1909: We endeavour to give people no cause for stumbling in anything, lest the work we are doing should fall into discredit (Weymouth) TWI in setting itself up as THE Ministry of God’s Word has effectively hijacked verses like this one, which don’t refer to an organization but to one’s individual service. Other versions say, “our ministry” rather than “the ministry,” (eg, ESV, NIV, NLT) We try to live in such a way that no one will be hindered from finding the Lord by the way we act, and so no one can find fault with our ministry.(NLT) TWI could, however, have hijacked “our ministry” as well as it hijacked “the ministry” (even though they proudly boasted that no-one could belong to The Way and it had only three members (the BoT). Assuredly it would become “our” ministry if that could be used as a means of quelling discontent or speaking up. It might be helpful to keep in mind that “ministry” means “serving” not an organization. Or even, just “work”, as in the first few verses above. TWI is not a “serving” organization. I ask again, when did anyone last see or hear of top leadership (let’s say, the BoT) serve by cleaning bathrooms or peeling potatoes? Much less washing feet!

Many people did do this, Oldies. Many have served in pureness of heart and honestly believing they are serving God. It has led, as you know, to widespread abuse of that willingness. And let's not forget, as you quote Eph 5, that the MoG (or perhaps WoG) is also a servant and also needs to serve with goodwill, from the heart. I'd like to see some of the top leadership still at TWI serving as others: cleaning the bathrooms, peeling potatoes, hauling boxes around, shifting furniture. I wonder when in his term of office LCM ever did any of those things? When Rosalie last did any of those things? Aren't leaders supposed to lead by example? Would they like to demonstrate their pureness of heart in this type of service? I wonder when any of the top leadership did this: Sure they will say they do all the other things. Do they get out there and witness - to those who are not already righteous in Christ (=the regular congregation)? I mean, serving by witnessing in the mall, or door knocking?

I can work with that. So what we are seeing in the NT is a mature relationship - because we are under grace. In the OT the believers are under the law as under a school master. The relationship there is more teacher/ pupil or if you like parent/ child. The child grows up. Any parent might expect the child to mature into a responsible adult with different "rules" for life which have been internalised from the childhood teachings and considered, meditated upon, by the child. The child has learned to apply the childhood rules in varying circumstances and where there is not always a clear rule. More mature terminology than parent/ child (where there is a great disparity in status) is the spousal relationship where both are on an equal footing (as God so made them in the beginning). So bride/wife and husband may also symbolise that more mature relationship. Not a "child bride". You could have a point here. If we are the Body, we keep looking at ourselves - not outside ourselves. Not at the LJC but at another member of the "Body".

So that's what they went with. I'd have copied their theme picture but they'd probably have sued me for breach of copyright. Here's an extract from their lead article for the new ministry year: Great words, but the truth of it is that they, TWI, have done so much to cause the brokenhearted to be in that condition! I note that "study" is more important than "faithfully living". And as usual, the Lord (Jesus Christ) makes a non-appearance. I wish health and wholeness to all who earnestly seek God. And his Son.

So John do you agree with the above? Or do you not think we are a part of any "Body" at all? Do you think Paul used this imagery inappropriately? Does it matter? So what I'm thinking now is: We are SONS of God (because He says so) We are BROTHERS (maybe BROTHERS AND SISTERS) of the Lord Jesus Christ We act together as a BODY representing the Lord Jesus Christ, on this earth, right now and as such representing him outwards, to unbelievers. We look forward together with other believers, as a BRIDE (even if we are male) looking forward to union with her husband and we wear these different statuses as we might wear our earthly roles - as a child, sibling, spouse, parent, next door neighbor, boss, employee - simultaneously, but we're still only the one person. Yes?

I think you may have misread me, John. Were you thinking of Geisha's and Penguin's posts soon after my first one? In any event, I don't think there are any "sex" or "children" issues in relation to these figures of speech. Spirit beings don't marry nor are given in marriage and that's simply not relevant here. The focus is on our own relationship to Christ - as a husband? as the head of our body? (In view of the violence perpetrated against so many women by their husbands, such violence being condoned or at least not condemned by TWI, it calls into question the whole bride/husband relationship and few women here would vote for that sort of relationship!! But that's a digression.) I do not think that the Lord Jesus Christ would have beaten his wife, threatened her with weapons, or constantly put her down. In fact, we see his relationship with women as being affirming, uplifting, and encouraging, and way beyond any cultural boundaries. And we have greater works available to us to be able to do, than he did. Wouldn't that make us more important than a mere female, in the Mediterranean culture of the time?

Brushstroke, I thought you were a smart and intelligent guy. Whatever are you doing hanging out with Flat Earthers? Or are you making some statement about TWI beliefs? Very funny though. The Kennedy conspiracy theorists have nothing on these guys.

I thought this bore repeating. Like the way you put it, Highway.

'S always interesting when someone brings up an old thread, though. So much on these forums that's current that it's easy to miss something that happened prior to one's personal history here. Maybe this thread needs transplanting into the CES subforum - mods? I wonder if the original participants of this thread still hold the same views, considering the personal prophecy and other things that have happened at CES?

You got it, Tom.

Words: John S. B. Monsell, Hymns of Love and Praise for the Church’s Year, 1863. This hymn was sung in the Acad­e­my Award win­ning mo­vie, Char­i­ots of Fire (1981). Music: Pen­te­cost, Will­iam Boyd, 1864 (MI­DI, score); first pub­lished in Thir­ty-two Hymn Tunes Com­posed by Mem­bers of the Un­i­ver­si­ty of Ox­ford, 1868: Al­ter­nate tunes: Duke Street, at­trib­ut­ed to John Hat­ton, 1793 (MI­DI, score) Shepton-Beauchamp, Eng­lish tra­di­tion­al mel­o­dy (MI­DI, score) I only know this to the tune "Duke Street"

Interesting and yet another figure of speech. I always find it very comforting on the occasions when the vicar at my church gives the farewell blessing, "The Lord make his face shine upon you." It feels like a hug. I like the idea of God's face shining on me and smiling lovingly at me. Difficult to hug someone if you are not face to face. Nu 6:25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee In Crosswalk I put in "face" and "shine" and got a dozen wonderful verses, of which this is the last: 2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Which looks a bit like, "turn your eyes upon Jesus" or "what would Jesus do?"

Interesting, and agreed there are a lot of different figures of speech. All have something to offer. After all a Bride can hardly be a city, no matter how physically beautiful it is. And what does a Lamb want with a Bride anyway? TWI did teach that a godly marriage (=between Christians) is like the relationship between Christ and his church; but the marriage relationship is a symbol, an example, of that Christ and believer/church relationship. (VP also I think went so far as to say that marriage was only suitable for believers! Unbelievers don't have the stamina to see it through and don't get the fullness of the spiritual connection between spouses. What a crock!!) We are to be subject to Christ as the Head of the body. As members of the body, we have a responsibility to exhort and encourage both Jews and Gentiles alike (ready to give an answer to everyone; God wants all [men] to be saved, etc.) The Jews, as God's chosen people pre-Christ (not that God ever turned anyone away!), didn't and don't have the same evangelical function. They just lived their lives and if outsiders chose to join with them, they could do so, on particular conditions (inc circumcision for men) and were excluded from full participation for several generations. "Wives" weren't expected to be proselytizers and in fact probably got very little opportunity to do so, being confined to home responsibilities in a Jewish environment. Men by contrast did trade and travel on journeys but even so weren't given any "ministry of reconciliation" equivalent. I find it significant that there is very little in the post-Acts writings mentioning "bride" or "wife" except representationally, and so much more explicitly saying "body".

Right early on in the article: Started from a premise and then looked for something to support it. Didn't ask teh question, Is the action of covering true for today?

An interesting topic, Dot. Especially in relation to TWI, many came to it already Christians from who knows where, but got better "instruction" via PFAL than they had had in their churches. They weren't "fathered" by VPW, more like "adopted." Unless you allow for the Master/Apprentice relationship that is referred to above like Paul/Timothy. For those that fancy being "fathers in the Word", please note the following: Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. Would you agree that the self-appointed Father in the Word had discouraged one or two of his "children"?

Oh, and the previous hymn was, "O Father, you are Sovereign" But the tune also carries the words of "The Church's One Foundation" which is a really good old Wesley hymn.

Can I play, can I play?? I just found this thread. ---omitted line--- Christ is thy Strength, and Christ thy Right; Lay hold on life, and it shall be Thy joy and crown eternally. Run the straight race through God’s good grace, Lift up thine eyes, and seek His face; Life with its way before us lies, Christ is the Path, and Christ the Prize. Cast care aside, upon thy Guide, Lean, and His mercy will provide; Lean, and the trusting soul shall prove Christ is its Life, and Christ its Love. Faint not nor fear, His arms are near, He changeth not, and thou art dear. Only believe, and thou shalt see That Christ is all in all to thee. In view of the athletic urging to "run the straight race" this could have been a good TWI song but it never appeared in SATW, perhaps because it is Christ-centred.

Hey I just discovered this thread. Can anybody play? Can somebody give me a potted version of the rules? If I win, maybe I could completely baffle you with some Brit quotes.

Lifted from the CFFM internet newsletter (I hope they don't mind...) Investment Tips for 2008 With all the turmoil in the market today and the collapse of Lehman Bros and acquisition of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America this might be some good advice. For all of you with any money left, be aware of the next expected mergers so that you can get in on the ground floor and make some BIG bucks. Watch for these consolidations later this year: Hale Business Systems, Mary Kay Cosmetics, Fuller Brush, and W. R. Grace Co. will merge and become: Hale, Mary, Fuller, Grace. Polygram Records, Warner Bros., and Zesta Crackers join forces and become: Poly, Warner, Cracker. 3M will merge with Goodyear and become: MMMGood. Zippo Manufacturing, Audi Motors, Dofasco, and Dakota Mining will merge and become: ZipAudiDoDa. FedEx is expected to join its competitor, UPS, and become: FedUP. Fairchild Electronics and Honeywell Computers will become: Fairwell - Honeychild. Grey Poupon and Docker Pants are expected to become: PouponPants. Knotts Berry Farm and the National Organization of Women will become: Knott NOW! Chipolte Restaurants and Smith &Wesson will merge under the new name: ChittyChittyBangBang

From another thread in ATW comes this: I checked this out in my Concordance and did some online searches. The people in my church all think they are part of the Bride of Christ; that's why I started checking. Now John Juedes brings it up. I have never heard the expression "the wife of Christ" in any church. What I find is this (and this is not all the scriptures, just a selection of what seem the most relevant): Relating to the Bride/Wife of Christ: Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. Re 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Re 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Re 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Relating to the Body of Christ: Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another Eph 1:22,23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Heb 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body JohnJ uses Eph 5:23 to support us being the bride of Christ; but that ignores Eph 5:30 which calls us members of his body. TWI taught (teaches?) that the Bride of Christ is the believers at and before the coming of Christ. The Jewish church, if you will. The Revelation scriptures refer to the bride as the (physical) city of Jerusalem. Since his death and resurrection, all believers, whether originally Jew or Gentile, are made into one ("he broke down the wall of partition") and since that time all believers have been part of the Body. We have a different function now, since Pentecost, and that's why we are not merely the bride, but the body. Seated in the heavenlies, with all things in subjection under our feet - as we are in Christ. John, TWI taught that in the Revelation period the pre-Christian believers (the Bride) and the Christians (the Body) will be united (in some way which is clearly figurative). TWI didn't spend a lot of time in Revelation, which is clearly into the future. I'm not really concerned with that period in this thread and don't want to derail in that direction. What will happen, will happen, and it doesn't matter what we think is going to happen. Right now, though, in our earthly existence, I think it does matter how we see ourselves. If we do not see ourselves as part of the Body of Christ, how can we effectively act on his behalf? How can we do the "greater things" that are promised? Can we fully exercise the "ministry of reconciliation" - as the earthly Christ did? Yet all the time we must remain in subjection, holding fast to him as the Head (of the Body) not exercising our own wilful minds (like a wife not in subjection). (At the same time, we are also Sons of God and Brothers of Christ... just using familiar human relationships to express a relationship which is so far beyond words.)

Actually John, TWI teaches that we are the body of Christ, not the bride or the wife. There are very few references to the "bride of Christ" in the NT but there are a shedload of references to us being the Body of Christ, especially in 1 Cor 6, 10 and 12; Ephesians, Colossians and Hebrews. I was going to post something else but it would derail this thread so I'll start something in Doctrinal. Perhaps you would care to join me there? If we are going to have a relationship with anyone - it's important to know who they really are, and that can only be found out through time and effort. You can know a lot about a person by what they read or what is written about them - but you can also find it's completely misleading. We read about the President or the Queen or a film star or a rock star - we can read all we like, it's someone else's understanding of that person. But if we met the President/Queen/film star, they might be quite different from what we'd thought, from reading about them. How much more so if we read about someone who is dead - a president or monarch of the 1800s? So much study, yet so little time spent quietly growing the relationship.