Twinky

Was fossicking around in Wikipedia tonight and by accident discovered that November 4 is the birthday of ... Craig Martindale. Whilst hesitating to wish him a happy birthday (much less, many happy returns :unsure: ), I thought it might be interesting to consider what one might say on such an occasion. So, Craig, if you're listening: Spend a few minutes of your birthday reviewing what your life has become, and asking yourself if you want the rest of your life to be more of the same. Give yourself a happy birthday by acknowledging in the depths of your soul how unhappy you became and maybe still are, and repenting of the evil you did. Use today to start afresh and (even though you hate New Year Resolutions and called them "a recipe for failure,") make some decisions about how you can make amends. For a birthday present: a big bundle of humility. You may get some compassion, too. Now the waiter will bring some fresh coffee and try not to spill it down your shirt.

Not pasties as such, but I have made meat pies. And apple pies. And lots of other pies. Some pasties have the "seam" along the top and some, along the side. No doubt there is a traditional way (Cornish=on top, I think) but hey as long as the content is good, so what, teeth don't have eyes to see where the seam is!

Bump for benefit of people joining in last few months.

Ain't that true! Feel free to vent. Write a poem about that, too. The "Event of Venting."

I visited at Gartmore several times. The people there were nice, but there was a funny sort of atmosphere. I hadn't been around places or TWI long so didn't recognise it for what it was. People didn't like to do things and always felt the need to refer back to him. This may be typical of the sort of thing that happened. Bear in mind that Gartmore is way out in the wilds of Scotland. It's a long way from anywhere. There isn't any public transport unless perhaps there is the odd local bus which trundles round various villages and thence to the nearest town. Believers from London used to go up to Scotland for the weekend. They would come up the motorway from London and zip up to Scotland (what is it, 800 miles?) sometimes calling in at Birmingham to pick up believers from central Birmingham. Then continue up the motorway. I lived in a little town 30 or so miles north of Birmingham. The motorway skirted round this town and there was a junction close to where I lived. It was about 1 mile to walk there. I arranged on several occasions to be picked up at this junction. What it meant was that the bus scooted off the motorway, pulled over and I jumped onto the bus, and it went straight back up the on-ramp. Not a big cloverleaf - just straight on and off. Very simple. Time delay: maybe 60 seconds. If that. So I would be waiting out at this junction at between midnight and 1am. Or later. Unworried, all alone, and it was dark. No problems. They would drop me off same way, straight off the motorway, drop me, and then straight back on. Minimal delay. I would walk home. Again, this would be maybe 1am. I asked for nothing special, just drop me off. Even though it was only a mile to my home and on major roads with no difficulties of access, I didn't ask to be dropped off there. No worries. I paid the same fare as everyone else, including those coming from London. One time I was up there. I became aware of a row that was going on. The WoW who was undershepherding me was getting very agitated, and eventually said I would be going home with someone else. Turned out that whoever organised this bus trip had now refused to drop me off at my M'way junction. No, they would not pull off. It would mean special treatment/favour for me and if they did it for one, all the others might wonder why and also want special treatment and to be dropped off at their homes. But - they would take me down to Birmingham and I could make my own way back from there. Birmingham? At 3am?? I don't even know if there would be a train service back to my town - and what time would I arrive there? And have to get home from the station? How to do that?? Crazy!!!!! Thankfully, a carload of believers - not sure where they lived, and I didn't even know them - went at least 50 miles OUT OF THEIR WAY in order to drop me at my mother's home where I planned to spend a little time. I believe half my fare was refunded to the WoW, who then gave it to the people who gave me a lift home. Not sure, he took care of everything. I find this utterly incredible. If the bus folks had said they were unwilling to do it NEXT TIME, well, that would be something to think about. But to "dump" someone way out in the boonies.., or take them off to some huge strange major city where the bus station is never nice even in the daytime, and dump them there at night... Not sure how many times I went up to Gartmore after that. I think there must have been one time, but a carload of believers picked me up and dropped me off. They stayed with me overnight, or we all travelled off one time and broke the journey in Manchester. Maybe they stayed with me on the way home - long time ago now. What has this to do with Chris Geer? Well, he was running all Europe from Gartmore at the time, and was therefore the head of the organisation. This is the kind of controlling directive that came down from there. Must do it same for all, or else. I don't know if he was directly involved, or if it was just part of the ethic of the time. I already thought CG was pretty arrogant and uncaring. This incident didn't help me feel any better about him. Somewhere - love and compassion had been left behind. Oh, this must have taken place some time between 1986 when they bought Gartmore and 1988. I think my WoW friend was in the E-Corps in about 1986. He didn't last long there. No details.

Brits do like pies and pasties! Did you see in the attached article, they used to be "dinner" one end and "pudding" the other? (I've never had one like that!) A good pasty is very good. A bad one is all pastry and no filling. Have you tried making any, GQ?

It is a man, right? Sadly I have no claims to fame. Or to rubbing shoulders with the famous. I just have some great friends.

Praying at the golden calf... :unsure:

Hapopy Birthday, Chas. Hope you had a great day, and best wishes for a great year ahead.

Hapopy Birthday, Belle. Have a great day and a great year ahead.

"Groaty pudding"????? Anyway, my specialty is Sticky Toffee Pudding. Emphasis on "sticky" and "toffee". As in all over the floor of the oven. And HotSax just smiled and got stuck in (ha ha) and got it cleaned up. Sorry 'bout that....

Well, just as I was thinking this thread had done its dash, a little birdie has whispered news of the new programs in my ear. The first 2 service programs start November 1. They last for five months. You can sign up to do the following, for approx 20 minutes a day: 1 Speak the Word 2 Pray You don't have to quit your job or move. You can just do it for God. But you do have to sign up. Two more programs will be announced at a later date (perhaps in four or five months time). A Region Coordinator present at the meeting where these programs were announced said, "We are going to look back 15-20 years from now, and see how these programs saved the country." So obviously TWI thinks it can single-handed save the country. You. dear Cafe patrons, on the other hand, may wish to spend the next 15-20 years planning your emigration to another country lest their programs be successful. I mean - WTF? - they are the only ones praying [to which God??!!]? They are the only ones speaking the Word?? This is some special program??? And what a shocking "down sizing" if now all they want is 20 mins a day of your time. But you have to "sign up" to do it. Wonder what else is involved; what sort of a record they might require - list of who you spoke to? Is it "speak the Word" or is it "Speak the Class"? Would they want a tape recording of you praying out loud? Sign up... so that TWI can figure out who is NOT faithful and put the heavies on them, perhaps. Or perhaps, if you don't sign up - you're not allowed to pray or speak the word (LOL)? I didn't hear anything of any initiatives to actually SERVE in the community. You know, just do something nice for people without expectation of reward or signing up to take the class... just serve a meal on Friday night to the homeless, offer to help out at the old folks home down the street, be a volunteer worker at the local school ... perhaps these will form part of the new programs to be announced in the future?

And who is taking their laptop with webcam so that I can join by Skype? :) Thought I would have a mini-BBQ here and invite a few ex-Way, not decided yet. A lot of people may be out for the evening anyway as it's Bonfire Night on 5 Nov and the BBQ weekend is likely to see a lot of public bonfires and firework displays, so people may have other commitments. And it's jolly cold for standing around outside having a BBQ.

Shock and horror. Followed by desire to stick a thousand knives in them. Followed by recognition that they were as deluded as the rest of us and probably worse. Yes, confrontation/closure might be welcome. Maybe necessary. I guess I actually need to be grateful to the person who so meanly and cruelly enjoyed kicking me out, otherwise I might not have left, too much kool-aid. Or maybe I would just have left later and never felt the need to beat myself up so badly afterwards. Relayed to me by another poster, said by someone here: "TWI was like Miracle-Gro for all our faults." If "CrappyMOG" had been a basically decent person prior to TWI involvement, s/he might welcome the opportunity to apologize, being basically decent. If "CrappyMoG" had been a mean and unpleasant person prior to involvement, they probably still would be and would still think they were right (viz some of the splinter MoGs). And I would view their posts as "PosterX" with some suspicion.

Good post, Waysider.

Mary Poppins (former poster here) and her husband Powerfilled have a fellowship. It's full of teenagers. The kids have brought each other and absolutely love to hang out with MP and Powerfilled. One Saturday afternoon (for the kids love to hang out at MP and P's place) all the kids confessed that prior to coming to fellowship, they had all "cut" themselves (unbeknownst to each other). They don't feel the need to any more. However, since they have all 'fessed up to it, they help each other if any of them feels weak and wants to do it again. But what's really helped the kids is simply sharing the scriptures with them and showing them purpose for their lives. What did Jesus do when he encountered a man who hid in tombs and often cut himself? (Mark 5) He cast out the devil spirit Legion. What a jerk your leadership was. (Edited to add scripture reference)

Hey Hammy, have a good one.

Yes, I did intend for it to be iin About The Way. I considered Doctrinal and made a decision that that is NOT where I wanted it to be. I wanted to discuss this particular application of TWI rubbish. Brushstroke: If he has opened the door, it doesn't need opening again. Yeah, they never told us that we would follow their law. We lived by grace, doncha know. What I asked was: Any takers?

Thanks, Geisha. It is an interesting discussion with a lot to think about and a lot of side issues being raised in the posts. Thank you all who are posting, for keeping to the main point. There are many others who are following this discussion who are not necessarily posting, but it is clearly food for thought. I think I am prepared to take on board that whether Bride or Body, it is just another figure of speech to represent a type of relationship. Like sonship. BoJC's idea of the Bride being taken out of the Body is a new concept. As to a current thought posted above that we might be "cut off" or "no eternal security", I can't quite see that alongside this thread. A Body doesn't usually cut bits of itself off unless horribly diseased or mutilated such that the rest of the body would be at mortal risk (gangrene, for example). Cutting off someone does not fit either with the concept of a Bride becoming one with the Body: for a husband is to love and cherish his wife in sickness and in health. In the OT even a wife who whored around and was a horrendous disgrace was still loved and her husband went after her to bring her back into his household (Hosea).

LOL, it wasn't long after 1984 anyway!!

When Gartmore opened, lots of us went up. We were all excited. The place was a horrible mess , there were no proper facilities, and it was all rather "home spun". And people loved it. What had been the school hall became a dormitory overnight, lots of little cot beds laid out and people slept as best they could. In the morning the cots were removed and chairs appeared and the hall reinvented itself as a meeting room/auditorium, with a dais at the front. The meeting started. A few songs. Then CG came bouncing out onto the dais. He was beaming and looked really "freshly scrubbed". People stood and applauded, whistled and cheered. This is SUCH an unBrit thing that it was embarrassing. It didn't seem like a "love" welcome but a sort of political fanaticism. (Brits will applaud in welcome but not noisily or vigorous, they don't stand, and they don't whistle or shout. A standing ovation may happen at the end - but not at the end of a church service!) CG beamed and beamed and beamed. The shock wave of ego that had entered with him got bigger and bigger. It felt suffocating. In this meeting, he announced, seemingly humbly, "If there is anything you need to know, or have a question about, you are always welcome to speak with me. My door is always open to you." Later, I happened to bump into him in the bookstore, just him and me there. Being a recent PFAL grad, I had a question about something, can't remember what but it was something very simple, so asked him. He looked at me like I was a turd, didn't bother to answer, and walked away. I felt despised and humiliated. It never got any better and friends of mine who had entered the European Corps were ill-treated or ceased to be friends. Legalism crept in, in a big way. Love and compassion, kindness and caring, disappeared. People were actively dissuaded from being kind to each other and made into a sort of "one size fits all." So it was easy for me to choose, when the split up occurred. And when the Leadership tapes were presented and I was invited to listen, it was easy to see all the things that LCM pointed out. People at HQ had been very kind to me at that point and I felt that I was "at home" there. Not a thing I ever felt on my visits to Gartmore.

We were discouraged from looking at or considering the “Ten Commandments” as being “Law” and Jesus Christ is the “end of the law”. Actually, he is the “end of the law for righteousness,” not for behavior as such. Yes, we are righteous. And we also have to live in this world. It might be interesting to consider how the rules for living set out in Ex 20-22 (as applicable in our time) were broken by top TWI leadership. Exodus 20:1-17 (NASB) Then God spoke all these words, saying, I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. Not an organization. Not a man. And not Jesus Christ, either. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Not observed from the beginning by those commanded; likenesses of various heavenly beings, animals and plants put in the Holy of Holies as decoration - but not worshiped. Cuts out statuettes of VPW, the Timothy statue. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. Includes acting in his name but not in his power Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; {in it} you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. Obviously not applicable to Levitical class, who had significant duties on the sabbath. Normal work functions not generally permitted. The busiest day for HQ and the Corps, who had significant duties towards visitors. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. Did VPW honor his parents? He encouraged Dorothea to run away from hers. Did LCM honor his parents? VPW had to speak to his father to persuade him that LCM’s job as Prez was worthwhile You shall not murder. Perhaps not done, but self-murder (suicide) by a scorned husband whose wife had been suborned did take place and no responsibility was taken You shall not commit adultery. Won’t even begin to go here You shall not steal. Includes obtaining by false pretences – that the money is being used to further the work of God You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Includes “spiritual suspicion” and all the homo allegations You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Includes coveting someone's "ministry" or religious organization ("house"). Some people sold property (farms) and gave the money to TWI, after a little "suggestion" by TWI. Back to the adultery thing Yet how choosy TWI could be. For instance, this verse, taken so badly out of context: Ex 21:22 "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges {decide.}” …was used to justify abortion. And this verse Ex 21:16: “He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.” …led to a few rants about how deprogrammers and the families of Way adherents who arranged for deprogramming were worthy of death. I thought it might be cleansing to consider how much of Ex 20-22 was disregarded. Or just the many ways even just the ten commandments graven in stone were perverted. And if in doing so, anyone wants to think how better their life can line up to God's standard - that's all part of clearing out TWI's malicious doctrines.

Well, if he ever decides to apologise, he knows where to come. It won't be TWI, but it will be any (perhaps every) ex-Way site like the Cafe, and the Way Corps site. Neither is difficult to locate. Maybe he's already a lurker here? Well, let's see him post his apology and repentance under his own name (no doubt Paw will check out anybody claiming such a name!!) and ... the radio on that will be an "alert all ears" thing. Warning, Craig, if you're lurking: you know you won't get an easy ride. Be prepared to get back, pressed down and shaken together, in generous measure - that which you doled out to others. Or perhaps we will be more generous than you in our compassion.

Amen, Jeff! Yes, if TWI is going to teach people to serve with gladness, they will do well to heed scriptures like this: Now...if something like this started coming out from TWI, words and deeds, maybe they would have something to teach about service, that would be worth listening to. Note that this passage relates to bishops, the overseers - the limb coordinators of that day, perhaps. And Timothy, as "Prez", knew that he had to set the standard in his own life.

Thank you all for your thoughtful and courteous posts on this thread. There are clearly quite a number of different views and it is interesting how thinking has diverged from TWI teachings. Like so many things: we know in part. Whatever we believe - what is already decreed will come to pass faultlessly, whether we are Bride or Body - or even something else - regardless of what we believe. Sunesis, this can't be right, surely. Is not the Lamb looking for the city, as it is to be his bride? No references to brides seeking cities, that I can recall. Logic says that if the Bride and the Body are united and become one flesh (loads of Bible verses on that) then presumably the Bride and the Body will be together. Not one on the earth and one in the heavenlies?