Twinky

Good one, Dot! Well said. Newlife, haven't heard your story before...appalling. I believe you, and I am very sorry it happened to you. It was completely inappropriate.

Nothing edifying about these, why on earth would you want to listen? (shudder) I'd be joining Polar Bear on that bridge! For best effects, though, you would want some of the Corps Night tapes, SNS are tame by comparison.

Well, if people send you PMs or emails, are you going to post the answers here so that we can all know?

Oh gosh, I think there would be heaps about me in my book of life. All those complaints about - I was joyful one day; another day I suggested something a little different from whatever the coordinator said; I was on dishroom mega times; I got tired and a bit cranky and cried after 20 hour days for over a week and the rest of the two-week AC (or whatever) period still to go; I looked at somebody the wrong way; I forgot (or just plain didn't) stand up when some clergy entered a room; I was late for midday meal once; I was late for breakfast once...the list of my sins is endless. Mostly I was not meek enough. (We really need a Raspberry emoticon here!) DWBH I am appalled by what you say about the sets of books, and how much income was generated and how much used.That's money that was given in good faith to "MOVE" the word, not to languish in a bank account. It was given, so that it could be given to those in need. But why should this surprise me...? (shakes head sadly)

Corps were supposed to be handed back files relating to themselves after they had graduated for ten years. We were told we might be surprised by some of the things in them - letters and such like, where people had written [to the Prez] about great things we had done. Of course, they could hand back some things...but who would know if there was other stuff? And how could you say that the information in the file hadn't been stored by some means (microfiche, to start with; maybe digitally, later). I recall LCM getting over-excited once about some "cop out" Corps who at their ten-year anniversary had the cheek to ask for their file back. He was quite vocal in his contempt for this person. I believe his gist was that it was a blessing and privilege to be given your file, to see the things people had recorded about you over the years. And it wasn't for some cop-out to have that blessing. He never said what became of the files of "cop-outs" after ten years, whether they were destroyed or nay. (What did they do, have a symbolic burning in the lake of fire, LOL?) Even if he said they were destroyed, who was witness? We all took their word for everything, never expecting them to lie to us or try to deceive us. Nobody has sent or given me mine... After ten years, it would have been the sledgehammer blow that did for me, probably. Life already wasn't worth living. Now? ...you know, I really don't care. Their opinion of me just doesn't matter to me. I know what God thinks of me. That is worth knowing.

"You can't go beyond what you've been taught." "If you need answers, please write: The Teacher, PO Box ###, New Knoxville..." Don't even consider:

It was my house group last night. There were only about 10 of us. We discuss questions (prepared by the preacher) on the sermon, and anything else that arises. It can be lively, interesting, and goes off on interesting tangents. To my enormous surprise, one of the men there, a lovely older man, John, talked about abuse in a church that he had belonged to, and he said that he'd been "excommunicated." He was banned from that church and also from any kind of housegroup. (This is a wonderfully kind, meek, committed man and when he prays aloud you can hear the deep love-relationship he has with God.) He bumped into the "minister" some time later and told him he forgave him. The minister's face went all kinds of red and he sputtered and was enraged. He couldn't take the forgiveness. How sad. I think the apology meant a lot to John, too, even though the incident took place many years ago and he is well and truly over it. But for some of us at the housegroup, where they hadn't seen this sort of stuff (much), it really didn't mean anything and they wondered whether Paul had the "right" to apologize on behalf of abuse by others. I said, if it was only for me, it was worthwhile; that's when John told his story. Of the ten there - two (inc me) are cult survivors; one had been "excommunicated"; one had walked out from his (RC) church because of doctrinal issues; one is the associate pastor, who saw much legalism in his previous church; one was married to a stern legalistic minister (now divorced). That's just what I know; others are there for other reasons, and others of the group (who weren't there last night) have other experiences. But what an enormous legacy of control/abuse. That apology surely was needed.

Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets. At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed, Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this: I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized! It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended. Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful. By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy. I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI. But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it. I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone there who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy! To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it. I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done. Suggest if you want to comment on the apology, you do so on this thread and not on the WayGB thread

Friends at the Café, the most wonderful thing happened in church this week. The vicar (Paul) was preaching on “Fatherlessness” and our resistance to authority. It was a very tender sermon. His tenet was that was a father most wants for his children is for them to be Safe, and that’s why He gives instruction and guidance. Paul acknowledged that some fathers have been very bad, even abusive; and he also acknowledged that some churches have bad leadership and have been abusive towards the congregation. He emphasized that we need to know the scriptures, to know the difference between true and false prophets. At the end of the sermon, one of the musicians gently played the guitar whilst Paul prayed, Then there was a hymn and after the hymn, although Paul doesn’t like to speak or go back to his sermon after its conclusion, he said he felt the Lord wanted him to say something. What he said was this: I’m sorry, I don’t remember his precise words; this is the gist. It was heartfelt. He apologized. Apologized! It was a spontaneous thing: the sermon is posted on the internet and the church is big enough that we have two identical services back to back in the morning. He didn’t say this the first time round, only at the second service, that I attended. Perhaps because of the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and my own earlier post on this, just wanting an apology – this was so appropriate, so wonderful. By this time, tears were leaking out of my eyes in a significant way. It was tears of thankfulness to my Father, tears of love and grace, tears of joy. I doubt any apology will ever be forthcoming from TWI. But I got the apology my heart desired, even if God had to work in the heart of a minister from a completely different church, to deliver it. I'm posting this on the “WayGB is monitoring” thread and starting a new thread. I want anyone at TWI who is reading this to understand that God has arranged an apology on their behalf; and the effect that apology has had. See? Saying sorry is easy! To other hurt people: this may be the only apology you get, too. It was heartfelt. Try to accept it. I am not the only cult escapee in this congregation. I know there are at least two Plymouth Brethren from different groups; don’t know who else, and there are other people who have come from legalistic church backgrounds of all denominations. Paul knows the damage that can be done. Suggest if you want to comment on this apology (as opposed to commenting abotu WayGB) you do so on the other thread.

Hmm, does J0hn R3ynolds monitor this site I wonder. I really liked and respected J0hn. I thought he was a great guy. I knew he was tight with H0ward. I couldn't believe he would know of H0ward's "indiscretions" (or LCM's, come to that) and not be in their faces about their off the word behavior. Then he made it to Trustee for a little while. I thought maybe he had stepped down as Trustee because he couldn't stand the dishonesty, but was one of those who thought they could do good from the inside, ie, do more good by staying. Though as a Trustee he would have significant "clout" to effect change. But then I had a conversation with one of LCM's sex victims and she told me what J0hn's actions were at a meeting where she was "confronted". And what his actions were not. He didn't take her part one bit; he was right in there supporting LCM. To people monitoring this site who are still in - you really might try looking and listening in your heart of hearts. It is not protecting the household to sit there like three brass monkeys, "see all, hear all, say nowt." May I recommend a re-read of Ezekiel 33? And you might find that many of the household have already looked for themselves and fled from "Zion" already because they see the imminent doom approaching.

Y'all are very cruel. There are innies who look in here and it is right they protect their families from further abuse. Some of them are working to get their families out. If, like Jeff, you have a spouse who is still very much "in," it's appropriate to conceal yourself. We all know how marriages have been broken up and one partner completely villified. But for those who monitor the site looking for dirt - all I can say is, wake up and smell the roses. Have you a conscience seared with a hot iron? Surely you don't think the reports on GSC are all completely fabricated? Exaggerated, some of them, perhaps, but there is a consistent thread running through them. Why don't you do what we ask, please, and just apologize? It would go so very far towards healing the hurt. TWI might be "softer and kinder" or whatever words you want to use nowadays, but those words don't seem to extend to "sorry" and "how can we help you?" and "we did wrongly; we repent." This would be a great place to post a corporate apology. You would, of course, get a huge amount of flak. And a lot of disbelief. But you will not be beaten, threatened, or physically assaulted. It takes humility, to say SORRY, and it takes removing the plank from your own eye, to see that EVERYONE is a little faulty and we're all just doing our best. Are you still too proud?

Catcup, sorry for the loss of your friend. I had misread your first post and had assumed she had died a while ago. Psalms 116:15 (New Living Translation) The LORD's loved ones are precious to him; it grieves him when they die. You could also publish the full obit in the Cafe's forum In Memoriam, as well. Probably a lot of people who post here also know her.

Now here's a thought. (a) Maybe, if TWI did want it back...they could simply buy it back. Got to be less expensive and more certain than engaging lawyers and the hassle and delay of proving their case, if indeed they do have one. (Can't believe an offer of even $500 would be declined. Or even $50.) and (b) Maybe (if the seller is hanging out for a larger amount) the seller knows this and sees it as a way of getting back some of the ABS donated over the years, that wasn't used for the purpose for which it was intended but was used for perpetrating the lifestyle of the rich and infamous? (Edited because for some reason the (b) was printed as the copyright symbol :huh: )

Do you know why he didn't honour this last request? With the ref to TWI - is he one who has been hurt by them (directly or indirectly)? (If so, perhaps that bit could have been edited to read just a little differently). I wonder if it would be appropriate for you to post a slightly amended version on the anniversary of her death, in the In Memoriam section of the local newspaper. That way, at least some recognition of what she stood for would still be publicly announced.

Bravo P@ul A//en for standing up to LCM and getting his wife back. Now there's a man of God, in a way that those super-spiritual men of God leaders never were. Stood up for what was right and proper. Fetched her back, like Hosea.

No, if property is stolen, it stays stolen. Caveat emptor. You can only sell with as good a title as you yourself have. At present, the item still seems to be on offer...

...opened his mouth to deliver a sermon (with me as the example, of course)... but instead of yelling at me, drew a deep breath, seized me round the waist and swung me round and round, all the time humming (none too tunefully) melodies from Athletes of the Spirit. Following his lead, the assembled Corps also started to dance, some well and lightly, and some emulating spirits of lust and debauchery. In the distance, Way Productions could be heard rehearsing. The scene took on the appearance of a Bollywood musical. But then, in the distance could be seen striding towards us the purposeful figure of Rosalie ...

For what it's worth to this discussion, the seller (if male) is Spouse Corps 10. Unless it's his wife who is the seller, and they just use the one E-bay name for items either of them sells. Would the tapes have been "given" to him as Spouse Corps (only SC?) Or would they have been given to him (not his wife) because he was the "head of the family"? Or were they "given" to her (on what basis?) and she has "given" them to him? I really don't care. I am rather concerned about anyone who would pay $5000 for this stuff. If they have that much cash to dispose of - they could give it to some charity where it would be of real value. Or they could just put their greenbacks in a paper bag and toss it out with the trash.

"Marry in haste - repent at leisure." (old adage) She should demand at least her money back from the firm that didn't vet the applicants - not that that's much compensation for a wrecked life!!! A colleague of mine married a man who she met through the "small ads" in the local newspaper. He was new to the area. Her friend saw the ad and told XXX that the advertiser just sounded like her sort of man. They met and liked each other straight away and married after a few months. They seemed very happy and she was blissful. That was some years ago. No reason to suppose it wouldn't work out but I left to go overseas a year or so after the wedding. ...There are some decent men out there...

If he was a victim, he has had ample opportunity to see the error of his ways. He self-reports a good childhood, though with perhaps paternal pressure to "achieve" (thinking of the Fortune 500 alleged ability). Early Corps have said he was a nice guy. So duped, perhaps. A victim of VPW. And like all victims, with the opportunity to change. And not become a victimizer himself. If he did have the decent background that he self-reports, he must have had some good stuff to fall back upon. Decent moral background. He said he had a church background; perhaps it was rather legalistic. He used to go on quite a lot about dogs returning to their vomit and I sometimes felt that he was fighting a return back to some place he wasn't comfortable with - but perhaps he was really fighting to stay where he was (!). He also used to say that people on staff would come up to him and say things that would help him. He mentioned something about that in the "Leaders Tapes" and said similar remarks at Corps Night. So he had ample opportunity to consider his ways and to depart from them. Instead, he dismissed and disgraced those who really confronted him. Conscience seared with a hot iron... Potato - well done for escaping the background that you started life with. Seeing it for what it was, and actively choosing to do something different in a positive way. That's a choice available to any victim.

Think this one has done its dash now, so signing out...

RumRunner, that's one awesome mother you have there. A living treasure. Your dad's a pretty good guy, too. As to VPW, something must have happened to predispose him to that sort of behavior. I find myself wondering about his parents and in particular his father. What were they like? Over-zealous? Too strict? Subtle or not-so-subtle put-downs? Gave him too little attention or praise when he was a young kid? And what about his parents' parents? Given that we all have weaknesses, and abuse in one form or another is often generational - observed behavior and felt, too, perhaps, from a young age, reinforced by years of neglect or abuse... Abused people (victims) often themselves turn into abusers. I don't know that I ever heard much talk of his parents; perhaps early WC heard him recount some tales? But even so, that doesn't excuse his horrendous behavior later. ESPECIALLY when masquerading as a minister. At some stage it got to "conscience seared with a hot iron" - assuming he ever had much of a conscience to sear.

WG and Waysider, apologies accepted, just a slight and easily sorted misunderstanding Had the WC been all that it had been "sold" as, things might have been very different, for all of us. I saw it as an opportunity to learn to serve, in a Godly manner - not a place to be served up as mincemeat. Actually I wasn't in long after graduation - I liked helping people (gasp!) and I was (am?) far too intelligent a woman (gasp!) to fit into the mold they thought I should. I was banished with many cruel and humiliating remarks flung after me. It's when you see the heart and loving kindness of ministers from mainstream churches that you really realize how ... faulty ... the WC training was. I 'fess up as being there in the Martindale reign of terror. Even so: I met up with some really great people there, still with a tremendous heart to love and serve God - in fact, most of them. But the legalism was doing its best to squash that out of them. I am very sorry towards those on the field who were hurt by legalistic WC. You deserved better. It is good to hear that approaches do not seem to have been made (yet?) via contacts from the WC site.

Bolshevik - high speed internet in every room :blink: - wow, we are moving on now! Presumably that means there are no lawsuits pending. WG - it's not an elitist thing as you are implying; it's just that only WC can register on the WC site. And all I wanted to know is if people had been approached via that site by innie Corps to rejoin - an approach made through rekindled contacts. Obviously that offer can't be made via the WC site to non-WC as there are no non-WC on the site. It's not to say that non-WC won't be approached and invited to return: but it won't be via that particular website. Some of the WC on the site do say openly that they are still with TWI.

Deuteronomy 18: 15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses] from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 This is what you requested from the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, 'Let us not continue to hear the voice of the Lord our God or see this great fire any longer, so that we will not die! ' 17 Then the Lord said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name. 20 But the prophet who dares to speak in My name a message I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods-that prophet must die.' 21 You may say to yourself, 'How can we recognize a message the Lord has not spoken?' 22 When a prophet speaks in the Lord's name, and the message does not come true or is not fulfilled, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. Two responsibilities here: A.The people are responsible to listen (and do) the words that the true prophet speaks. They will know this by whether the prophecy comes true (or not). So there is a objective, qualitative, standard. B.The prophet must speak truly, at risk of his own life - and the scorn of the people. So anyone who speaks for God must, sooner or later, see some of his prophecies come to pass - actual prophecies, not being "tuned in" to world events and being able to see what's coming in worldly terms. God gave us five senses to use, so that we could gain knowledge that way. Moses himself, for example, sent out spies into the Promised Land - he didn't just rely on "revelation" from God. But a long time before, in Exodus 7, there is the prediction of hornets driving out the occupants of the Promised Land, and the record of that fulfilment in Joshua 24. Weaknesses in an enemy' defences or structural buildings might be observable through the five senses - but the arrival of hornets? If the "prophet" never sees anything coming to pass, he must wonder about the quality of his prophecies. And know that the people also wonder about the quality of the so-called prophecies. Unless, of course, the prophecy is so vague as to be meaningless (more along the "forthtelling" line than a prediction that the world will end in 1914 or that Christ will return in 2109 or whenever). (Of course, VPW gave himself an "out" on that by saying that it was true whether or not it came to pass in his lifetime.) And there are scores of prophets who spoke of the coming of the Messiah, but the child Jesus was not born for centuries or even millennia afterwards.