Twinky

Waysider ... don't tell me you did that from memory ... (or is it ) Didn't know he'd pinched that too...but then again, maybe it was a bit too slick even for Slick Vic. Why am I not surprised?

Well, what has always worked for me is a product called "No More Jet Lag" - may be marketed in the US as "Jet Ease". Used to be in a slim white box with a blue plan on the front, very simple. It is a bunch of herbal extracts in a white tablet that you munch every two hours. Quite pleasant tasting. Buy in pharmacy or at airport. I have made many very lengthy plane journeys, literally from one side of the world to the other, the furthest points you can get apart. It's very tiring, as you might imagine. (There's a good reason why people do not commute between the uK and New Zealand...and it's not just cost!) When I have taken these tablets, I have arrived tired but fresh the other end. I have adjusted quickly with a longer night's sleep when I arrive, but no adjustment deficit that makes me feel hung over for the next three days. They work equally well no matter which way round you travel. As these have been so successful, I thought maybe I was imagining their effect...till I forgot or ran out or something, part way through a journey. The next few days in NZ were appallingly jetlagged. But when I have taken the tabs, I've lived a completely normal life and been fit enough to take off on some demanding physical exploits. Have a great trip, sounds wonderful!

Roll up, roll up! Get your brand here! Can't you just see it? Nice big bonfire, get the branding iron hot, stamp "CULT" across their hands or foreheads. Love their use of the abbreviation "ect." Don't you just love these highly literate characters ... that hide behind difficult KJV language when they don't even understand common English.

TWI wanted this two ways: (1) Jesus studied the scriptures very well and was well-taught by his parents. That's how he knew this stuff. (2) God was teaching him directly, by revelation (although they emphasized this more in his adult life). Gosh, can you imagine some precocious 12 year old TWI-raised kid...asking questions whilst seated at the feet of the leaders, teachers, call 'em what you will. One learns by asking questions. But the start of "no questions" was in PFAL where it was actively discouraged - write your questions down, we'll answer them at the end of the class - but never did. It amazes me there were Q&A sessions at WIB (not when I attended, early 90s) or Corps Week. When were the Q&A sessions closed down, pre- or post- VPW's death? Pre- or post-fog years? Another opportunity missed...word in culture.

Ain't that the truth. Nor did they have a clue as to the real value of all the skills brought in by other people, in performing arts, in tenderness for people, in anything. Were they ever a real "research" ministry? Or did they just grab bits of interesting slightly controversial material from other sources (Lamsa, etc) and pass it off as new light? I don't see why the team's individual abilities to research can't have been God-given - especially since there seems to be lasting benefit. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that perhaps some members of the team had the gift ministry (should you believe in such things) of Teachers. But of course to acknowledge that others had this gift ministry would detract from the glory of the self-appointed teacher.

Taxi... you never believed it but you stuck around anyway????? Do you mean you didn't believe any of it; or just that you didn't swallow the lot - but still managed to maintain some cynicism about some of the dogma?

Brave of you, Jeff,but what were you trying to do? Reduce some of the interest so that the the price would be driven down and there wouldn't be so much to purchase another property? The locals already knew it was a bad place to be. Sounds like the culties that you spoke to know in their hearts that what's going on is wrong but they don't know how to get out of it. Maybe you should have made up some "business cards" with the GSC website address on. Given them to the folks you spoke to. As a splinter group, it's the other side of their story, too.

How come I didn't get that piccy? Oh, I know, I was "serving" (on Beverage Crew again) not actually "attending" the class, probably. I think whilst in rez we suffered a "trial run" though. In the middle of the night? Well doncha know, all those DSs are much more active after midnight! That's why all WoWs had to be in bed by that time. Yeah, like DSs wear wrist watches... So he got you up at that time...so that, what, you could discern them better?

Absolutely, Geisha. It's especially vital to "use critical thinking skills concerning issues of faith." If we'd done that in the first place, maybe we wouldn't have suffered so under TWI's reign of stultification. Whether or not we have a belief in God, we should be willing to change that belief if the evidence that we acquire points to a different conclusion. If we do believe, we should be willing to change our ideas about who or what God is, too. If we don't believe, we should be willing to consider the questions you pose in your post - even if the conclusion is "I still don't have enough information." But: what helps with the critical thinking skills? What techniques? Recognising underlying beliefs, other "baselines" is a start. What comes after that? How do you sort the chaff from the wheat? I'm hopeful that this thread may assist people leaving or who have recently left TWI in their own quest for better ways of thinking. Just seeing "the other side" of the story as set out in all the threads in ATW will help a lot there; it will give another PoV to consider that place and its teachings. Getting sharper in our thinking abilities should assist us in all aspects of life, not just in the area of belief, but in considering personal relationships, instructions received in work environments, and in sports and hobby activities too.

If Geisha and George want to debate the existence or otherwise of God, may I politely request that that debate continue in Doctrinal?

No, not really, Cheranne. It's more about learning to think properly and in depth; to analyze what we understand, think; and to be able to make better decisions. To understand our thinking processes, and what we utilize when making decisions. Many of us, post-TWI, have quite damaged thinking skills. We may have been able to think properly before we got so involved, but our involvement, and the prolonged time spent where any questions we raised were "squashed," has taught us not to question anything. We learned to absorb information without thinking about it much; and if we did have questions or not understand, we either learned to ignore those questions or put them on one side in some dusty corner of our minds to think about later - but never got round to doing that. We may then have regurgitated that informatiion that we absorbed to other people, thus in our own minds promoting acceptance of it. We learned to accept information just given to us, without thinking about it. That in itself transferred to either (a) not accepting at all what others told us (because they are "unbelievers"); or (b) accepting what others told us, also unthinkingly (because accepting unthinkingly had become a habit). Both are wrong. If our thinking faculties have become dull or blunted through misuse, or even were never too sharp to begin with, we can hone those faculties so that our minds can really separate truth from error; so that we can see through lies, half-truths, propaganda. We can see what is mere "hype" and what is more "real" behind it. That doesn't just apply to Way dogma, as George puts it, but to all aspects of life. We will always have filters, premises, prejudices, a wealth of background that we take for granted. Critical thinking will help us understand some of those and how they come into play when accepting or rejecting any information. It's giving your mind a "tune up." A car engine works better if tuned occasionally - may even require the replacement of some parts if they are worn beyond serviceable limits. Maybe the last time we had the car serviced, manufacturer's original parts weren't used and the substitutes weren't quite of the right quality? They wore out and the engine could not perform so well. So if we replace them with parts of the correct quality, we will find a better-performance engine. A mind works better if it's exercised (used). If used, then it needs to be serviced occasionally, and if some ideas are found to be worn out or defective substitutes have been brought in, then they need to be replaced with parts fit for purpose. ("Take a check up from the neck up!") But that's just an analogy - don't take it too far...! T-Bone's post is very good and succinct. In a nutshell, this isn't about how to get out of The Way, but how to get Waybrain (uncritical thinking) out of us. How to learn to examine our thoughts and how to examine all kinds of information that comes to us. Neither is this thread a debate on the existence or otherwise of God.

And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God. We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary. Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.

Chockfull, not sure you are right about all the ABS staying in country. I lived in another country and as I recall (though I may be wrong) some of the ABS had to be sent to HQ - not all of it. And some of the ABS that stayed in the country was used to subsidize events for the country believers (that I do know for sure). But hey it was a long time ago. Things may well have changed. It would be more of a surprise if they hadn't changed...

Crystalclearblue and mstar, those are two too-funny stories!!! (Cracking up laughing)

Ah, that old picture. A motorcycle, a sidecar, a large trailer, and a storage box on top of the trailer. Nothng like traveling light, huh?

...find yourself doing dishroom and other menial chores at HQ, which is more important than [being allowed to] attend your sister's wedding... ...have no knowledge of outside events and still wonder if it's true that the Berlin wall has come down... ...when you break down in tears after over a week of 20-hour days, and those responsible wonder chastise you for not being spiritually on top of things... ...give up a professional career and find yourself cleaning out hen houses in a potato field...

Keith, certainly the laborer is worthy of his hire and should be able to live off donations given by the people he helps. The donation is not "ABS" or a tithe. It is what the person can properly afford to give. Don't you think some of the splinter group leaders are actually stating they are laborers and demanding a laborer's wage, but then not doing the laboring? That maybe any laboring they do do is on their own behalf, and not their paymaster's?

RumRunner: Yes, this really does need to sit outside "cult mentality." I really only started it in ATW because so many of us have had our critical thinking skills crushed by TWI. And because I wanted to get people thinking. Critical thinking skills are essential to any good decision making. And yes, children are good at asking "why?" to the annoyance of adults so that the adults want to shut the kids up. Better training of older children would be to encourage them to ask questions at specific times, and then to give them as complete an answer as possible and to encourage (guide) them to find out and dissect other answers for themselves ("find [6] different answers on the net; what do they have in common and what differs? Why? What does it show you about the author's POV?" etc) So much can crush our critical thinking skills. A lot in the world at large is to do with media presentation, so that we see this person or that political party as goodies or baddies. My PoV as a Brit is sometimes considerably different from that of many Americans on a lot of international issues - it doesn't make either me or Americans right or wrong. Why might our PoVs differ? Probably a Chinese or a Zimbabwean would see things differently again. Maybe we're all right or all wrong. It depends what propaganda (okay, media reporting) we are subject to. It's quite interesting sometimes to analyze advertisements, especially for similar products, and consider why one might "sell" better than another. T-Bone, I like your thought of periodic maintenance and specially about re-calibrating. And it's never shameful to change one's PoV, opinion, etc, if more information is found out. In fact, surely it's shameful to hang onto a previous opinion that is shown to be in error (how many adults really do still believe in Santa Claus, or did we not change our minds when later evidence disproved Santa's existence?). We're happy enough to do this in small things; why not big things as well?

Charles Wesley: Quote from this article: http://en.wikipedia....iki/John_Wesley His brother Charles also travelled on evangelising missions, and wrote many hymns. Some of those are still familiar today. http://en.wikipedia..../Charles_Wesley The Wesley brothers travelled miles on horseback in dreadful weather conditions, across moors and through bogs. After some years, some Christians made a little room for them at the side of their house; it became a tiny chapel and is still there to this day. They lived it and breathed it. They walked the talk. They didn't do it for the money (what money??!!) I really would like to see some of these modern-day wannabe ministers sent out in the clothes they wear, $20 in their pocket, and forbid them or any organisation with which they may be associated from accepting any money or gifts in kind. I'd like to see some of them helping at soup kitchens, hospices, rehabilitation units - doing something. I'd like to see them washing someone's feet, wiping someone's bum, cleaning vomit off drunks, befriending homeless people. Then, when they've learned something about servanthood - then, they might have something to share and teach. I don't limit this to splinter group leaders, either. What about some of these televangelists? Yeah, right. Lot of fellowship, communion, personal interaction...with a TV set.

First thought on this? Oh heck. Another splinter group forming up out there. And now pond says, "John didnt tell them he was leaving stf until a couple of months ago....to begin his own ministry." Pond, how do you know this? Soon we won't be able to see the wood for the ... splinters... At the top of a lot of GSC pages, we see JL's letter about the Truth about TWI. Are we going to see his letter about the Truth about STFI next?

Or does this just show what fuddy-duddies we all are, not having the imagination to think of Facebook as a rescue device? Who missed out on raising these kids, not teaching them to call emergency services? Perhaps the kids didn't think it was an emergency - not life-threatening (yet) and no broken bones, etc.

No no no, JT. The pile should all run perfectly in the same direction. After you have vac'd thoroughly, then you draw the vac back over the carpet to lay the pile nicely. Then - get this - you walk across the middle of it. That's because carpets are to be walked on, not admired. Well...that's how they did in at the Aud on that red carpet on the top landing. Must remember to walk on it. ...chequered pattern??? That would probably get you bounced back to dishroom duty.

"Lord of the Wings"

Leafy, I thought this bore repeating. Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!): Cheranne, you're right, getting rid of TWI thinking is rather like "re-wiring" your brain. This time, however, we get to examine the credentials of the one doing the re-wiring - perhaps in light of Leafy's suggestions. What has this new electrician got to gain by doing the re-wiring? What's his agenda? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

Notta, thanks, now I finally get it... All that groping and assaulting of, sorry, loving service by, young females is simply them tithing, or rendering their ABS to the MoG.