Twinky

I’ve been reading a lot in the OT lately and specifically in the early books. I ponder on Exodus 7 and the following chapters.  A sign: Aaron’s staff cast down, becomes a snake. Magicians do likewise.  Plague 1: Nile and all water becomes “blood” 7:19 in rivers and all containers; :22 Magicians do likewise. :24 People had to dig around the Nile to try to get water.  Plague 2: Swarms of frogs; :7 Magicians do likewise; Pharaoh will let people go – then changes mind  Plague 3: Gnats/lice/little biting critters; :18 Magicians cannot do likewise  Plague 4: Swarms of flies; Magicians: not mentioned; Pharaoh will let people go – then changes mind  Plague 5: Death of livestock in fields; Israelites separated; not affected; Magicians: not mentioned  Plague 6: Furnace soot – becomes boils on man and beast; Magicians: also afflicted; can’t get rid of  Plague 7: Hail, killing all in fields and ruining crops; All spared who respected warning – Egyptians inc; Israelites not affected in land of Goshen; Magicians: not mentioned  Plague 8: Locusts; Pharaoh under pressure from his own officials; Pharaoh agrees men only can go. Recants.  Plague 8: Darkness; Pharaoh agrees all people can go, but not animals. Moses declines.  Plague 10: Death of firstborn; Israelites, all people and flocks, expelled. I am mightily intrigued by these events. Especially (right now) by the magicians doing likewise. In the first sign (staff becoming snake), how come the magicians are able to do this? In the first plague, where did the magicians get their water from? When all water, whether in the river or in containers, was “blood”? How do they themselves turn the water into “blood”? It was only later that the people dug around the Nile for water. In plague 2, how do they “make” (?) the frogs? The phrase “And the magicians did likewise” has always puzzled me and I’ve never seen any explanation. Even Bullinger doesn’t comment, in The Companion Bible. He just says that God “allows” them to do this. Bullinger also says that each of the plagues is aimed at specific Egyptian gods or symbols of worship. That sort of makes sense to me, but I don’t know enough of Egyptian gods to be able to comment. I understand they had dog-headed and bird-headed gods, but there are no plagues against those. The Lion Handbook suggests a series of natural disasters starting with a heavy flood in the Nile, bringing thick red clay from Ethiopia, or red algae that polluted the water. I wonder if any of our widely divergent group of folk here can add anything about any of this portion of scripture?

Hello OldSkool, welcome to the real world. Glad you've finally been able to leave. Lurking for so many years before leaving suggests you had good reason to stay - family still in, perhaps? You will go through some ups and downs, but if you've lurked, you'll know some of what to expect. Enjoy exploring what you really do believe. Munch on this while you do so. BTW if you look at the bottom underneath a post, not within a post, you will see a dark blue Reply button (not the light blue in the post) - if you click on that, you will not repeat the text of the replied-to post.

"Systematic theology" ? As regards theology, I don't think I can agree it was systematic. It was, as you say, a mishmash. Having said that, however, it did take me into parts of the Bible that otherwise I probably wouldn't have explored, read, got to know anything about. Some of it relates to NT teachings, and some of it is on a theme of some description. It was all very pseudo - took us hither and thither, using verses on an alleged theme but whipping through them so fast that it was difficult to grasp the context of a verse that was being used in support of that theme. Sometimes to understand a verse might require reading the rest of the chapter before and after; sometimes several chapters either way. And then we were kept so busy that we had no time to go back and really consider the verse in its context. The PFAL foundational class "crammer" got people used to this hopping-about idea really quickly; after all, that's what so much of PFAL is about. Part of the overall impression given that this "teacher" is widely understanding of the Bible as a whole. All this hopping about gives the impression of being widely read, widely understanding, the Bible; but in fact any fool with a concordance can pull verses out of context. And because things were never set in their cultural context (not the Israelite culture, nor the wider middle eastern culture understood to be prevailing at any given time), again there was no context for a verse grabbed at random. Long ago, T-Bone, you recommended reading he Lion Handbook to the Bible. I have a copy and it is really excellent at setting things in their cultural context, both immediately and in the wider middle eastern context, by comparing with other tribal cultures of the time (Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, etc) ascertained from archaeological artefacts. I do think, however, that VPW-ology was systematic - systematic deception.

T-Bone - it is scary how much of that is stuffed in the back of our miinds. Sometimes I hate coming here because "it brings it all back" and keeps it on the surface when I'd rather just forget all about it. However, once this junk is on the surface, it can be addressed, properly considered, and despatched into the round cabinet for all time. To my horror, a few weeks ago I found myself starting to say one of the "junk science" things mentioned in this thread (ie, before this thread started). I kinda petered out mid-sentence and the person I was speaking to (very sharp, quick to pick up oddities) didn't appear to notice at all and has never mentioned it. Help, I need brainwashing!!

Dunno, George. Seems to me he is doing something worthwhile...giving us all a chuckle (if not more) at the sheer stupidity of this wheel going round and round and round and round.... A merry heart doth good like a medicine. See, JAL is good for your heart. That's if your frustration level doesn't give you a head injury first, because of banging your head against the wall.

Seems to be working now. Thanks, GT.

Okay, now with the Reputation buttons...I don't use these a lot but did see something that I'd mark as a + today. However, I got a message that I'd used my quota of + for the day. As it was the only time I've tried to do this today - do I have a nil quota? Similar thing happened last week.

Yeah, Oak, I know. Stoopid, ennit? We know VPW and LCM got their info from Witness of the Stars; but where did Bullinger get his info? He was a theologian, not an astronomer.

Very funny, T-Bone. Grandiose ideas, though, hasn't it? Comparing themselves to being persecuted as if under the Inquisition. "We must have the truth...everyone is ganging up on us to keep it quiet!" Heard that before, somewhere not too far away.

This may not have made the news in the USA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8327569.stm http://www.afriquejet.com/news/international-news/france:-court-in-france-convicts-scientology-of-organized-fraud-2009102837168.html http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091027/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_scientology (emphasis mine) Looks like the "church" is still very much in denial. But the whole thing still has that very familiar ring about it, just a different name... It would be nice to think that the "young woman" who took out E21,000 loans and who later complained was awarded some of the money that the organization was fined. Whether she ever sees any of it will be quite another matter.

Of course, you cannot see some constellations - like the Ursa ones - in the southern hemisphere; and as you say, you cannot see the Southern Cross in the northern hemisphere. The "Word in the Stars" is based on the constellations that are also known as the signs of the zodiac. These encircle the equator and are visible in the southern hemisphere. (Well, I don't claim to be an expert on astronomy; I don't know exactly every star of the zodiac constellations). When I've lived in or visited southern hemisphere countries, I'm always bemused at seeing Orion upside down.

Leafy, I'm sorry you got treated so badly as spouse Corps. Graduated Corps weren't considered spiritually smart enough to be able to choose a spouse who would be "a helper appropriate for them" (Gen 2:18) - a helper who had a great heart to serve. The choice should have been respected, not denigrated. You obviously took some time before it became such a burden that you mentioned it to your husband. And his ready response as indicated by you showed that it had become a burden for him. That "lockbox" thing again - where spouses dare not speak openly in case the other ratted them out to TWI. How can a marraige survive and grow, where the partners are afraid of each other? Rejoice in your freedom. Every day.

You know, when you look at something, you also look at what it is NOT. Look at VPW (or Barnard) - and you will see what being a real man IS NOT. Hmm...have you read about this guy Jesus? He sorta liked women and stood up for them and protected them. He had these close friends Mary and Martha. Women liked him. In fact, women (or at least one woman) threw themselves at his feet. He treated them with respect. He broke with tradition to treat them with respect (Samaritan woman). No suggestion he was trying to get into their knickers. No suggestion he had physical needs that needed "servicing." Oh, and by the way, he refused to allow people to "worship" (hero worship) him, idolize him, and he didn't threaten others with violence, knives, or other weapons. He didn't carry a gun for "protection." He might be a better role model for you, Jeff.

Must be something new. Same old teachings, just now done (silently) in sign language (LOL). Well, we all heard it all so many times that we could lip-read it anyway.

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Is there no end to the mudslinging essays from these people? 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. I "fear God" has got bored with these people and is just letting them get on with it. Maybe when they've stopped squabbling, there might be some scope for Him to say a quiet word or two? Meanwhile, this row doesn't seem to involve anything to do with HIm.

Good grief, that email is longer than most of the Pauline epistles - and that's without taking JL's attachments into account (total length then, how long? as long as a gospel?) The difference in the Pauline epistles is that they are concerned for the wellbeing of the readers, the believers, young churches, home fellowships. Not "I, me, mine." Where is the "edification and comfort" in anything that JL says? Who is preached, who is his letter about, who is glorified? And who isn't preached, who isn't the context of the letter, who isn't glorified? Philippians 1: 12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; 13 So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. 19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. Paul wrote this in rather more trying circumstances than JL has faced. Paul sets out his own credentials in Phil 3, taking just three short verses to summarise his "career". Then concludes with this: 8 I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness... Take a lesson, John, and all the rest at CES.

A very brave woman. And a very sad young man. Foolish, but brave in his way. Knew he was doing wrong, and turned himself in. He doesn't need a prison sentence, he needs a job and helping to live a normal life in society. Enabled to go his way and sin no more.

Only thing that surprises me about the snippet Shellon posted is that it didn't get plagiarized and incorporated into TWI dogma... ...at least so far as is currently known. :o (We really need a barf icon in the emoticons)

When we all get to use metric measurements, will we have to call him Sir Isaac New-tonne?

Nice to see this is still getting some votes. It's good to see that less than 10% were actually thrown out. The other 90% have left voluntarily, even if that was accompanying someone who had been thrown out. I wonder if this group has had fewer problems with adjusting to the world outside: but I think we've nearly all had adjustment issues and not being thrown out is perhaps only one less thing to deal with. For some it was a close-run thing, whether they left or were ejected. From the more recent poll ("Who's here now?") it appears at present that we all got hooked in in the 70s or 80s, none earlier or later. Have the 90's and 00s not found the Cafe yet, or just not answered the poll?

Good for them. Excellent idea. There's a like organisation in the city where I live. Just a small fellowship. They have decided not to use a dedicated building. Apparently they meet as small groups in people's houses and then fairly often all the housegroups meet up in a pub or some such place. Or maybe in the park, in good weather. Are people still allowed to smoke in public places in Wisconsin, then? Banned in pubs and clubs in the UK, Ireland, and several other countries. Makes going out a much nicer experience.

Bliss - you know what they say - "absence makes the heart grow fonder." But don't forget "out of sight, out of mind."

Geisha, you include a lot of works by NT Wright. Who's he, and what are his creds? How about a quick bio? T-Bone - not too bright? Huh? Pass me the sunglasses next time we meet. Just cos you dropped college doesn't mean you aren't bright.

Newlife, you might find this thread of interest:

Well, I was later in than TheHighWay, and I don't recall any required reading. There was some required reading for the Adv Class, which I took immediately before coming in rez (only to be presented again with it almost as soon as I arrived in rez). Basically Adv Class stuff was the collaterals and some other Way stuff, JCOP, JCPS. We had a list of books that we must bring with us when we came in rez, which included PFAL, RHST, collaterals, JCOP, JCPS, a Bible Atlas, a Concordance, an English dictionary and probably several other books.