Twinky

Absolutely, Geisha. It's especially vital to "use critical thinking skills concerning issues of faith." If we'd done that in the first place, maybe we wouldn't have suffered so under TWI's reign of stultification. Whether or not we have a belief in God, we should be willing to change that belief if the evidence that we acquire points to a different conclusion. If we do believe, we should be willing to change our ideas about who or what God is, too. If we don't believe, we should be willing to consider the questions you pose in your post - even if the conclusion is "I still don't have enough information." But: what helps with the critical thinking skills? What techniques? Recognising underlying beliefs, other "baselines" is a start. What comes after that? How do you sort the chaff from the wheat? I'm hopeful that this thread may assist people leaving or who have recently left TWI in their own quest for better ways of thinking. Just seeing "the other side" of the story as set out in all the threads in ATW will help a lot there; it will give another PoV to consider that place and its teachings. Getting sharper in our thinking abilities should assist us in all aspects of life, not just in the area of belief, but in considering personal relationships, instructions received in work environments, and in sports and hobby activities too.

If Geisha and George want to debate the existence or otherwise of God, may I politely request that that debate continue in Doctrinal?

No, not really, Cheranne. It's more about learning to think properly and in depth; to analyze what we understand, think; and to be able to make better decisions. To understand our thinking processes, and what we utilize when making decisions. Many of us, post-TWI, have quite damaged thinking skills. We may have been able to think properly before we got so involved, but our involvement, and the prolonged time spent where any questions we raised were "squashed," has taught us not to question anything. We learned to absorb information without thinking about it much; and if we did have questions or not understand, we either learned to ignore those questions or put them on one side in some dusty corner of our minds to think about later - but never got round to doing that. We may then have regurgitated that informatiion that we absorbed to other people, thus in our own minds promoting acceptance of it. We learned to accept information just given to us, without thinking about it. That in itself transferred to either (a) not accepting at all what others told us (because they are "unbelievers"); or (b) accepting what others told us, also unthinkingly (because accepting unthinkingly had become a habit). Both are wrong. If our thinking faculties have become dull or blunted through misuse, or even were never too sharp to begin with, we can hone those faculties so that our minds can really separate truth from error; so that we can see through lies, half-truths, propaganda. We can see what is mere "hype" and what is more "real" behind it. That doesn't just apply to Way dogma, as George puts it, but to all aspects of life. We will always have filters, premises, prejudices, a wealth of background that we take for granted. Critical thinking will help us understand some of those and how they come into play when accepting or rejecting any information. It's giving your mind a "tune up." A car engine works better if tuned occasionally - may even require the replacement of some parts if they are worn beyond serviceable limits. Maybe the last time we had the car serviced, manufacturer's original parts weren't used and the substitutes weren't quite of the right quality? They wore out and the engine could not perform so well. So if we replace them with parts of the correct quality, we will find a better-performance engine. A mind works better if it's exercised (used). If used, then it needs to be serviced occasionally, and if some ideas are found to be worn out or defective substitutes have been brought in, then they need to be replaced with parts fit for purpose. ("Take a check up from the neck up!") But that's just an analogy - don't take it too far...! T-Bone's post is very good and succinct. In a nutshell, this isn't about how to get out of The Way, but how to get Waybrain (uncritical thinking) out of us. How to learn to examine our thoughts and how to examine all kinds of information that comes to us. Neither is this thread a debate on the existence or otherwise of God.

And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God. We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary. Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.

Chockfull, not sure you are right about all the ABS staying in country. I lived in another country and as I recall (though I may be wrong) some of the ABS had to be sent to HQ - not all of it. And some of the ABS that stayed in the country was used to subsidize events for the country believers (that I do know for sure). But hey it was a long time ago. Things may well have changed. It would be more of a surprise if they hadn't changed...

Crystalclearblue and mstar, those are two too-funny stories!!! (Cracking up laughing)

Ah, that old picture. A motorcycle, a sidecar, a large trailer, and a storage box on top of the trailer. Nothng like traveling light, huh?

...find yourself doing dishroom and other menial chores at HQ, which is more important than [being allowed to] attend your sister's wedding... ...have no knowledge of outside events and still wonder if it's true that the Berlin wall has come down... ...when you break down in tears after over a week of 20-hour days, and those responsible wonder chastise you for not being spiritually on top of things... ...give up a professional career and find yourself cleaning out hen houses in a potato field...

Keith, certainly the laborer is worthy of his hire and should be able to live off donations given by the people he helps. The donation is not "ABS" or a tithe. It is what the person can properly afford to give. Don't you think some of the splinter group leaders are actually stating they are laborers and demanding a laborer's wage, but then not doing the laboring? That maybe any laboring they do do is on their own behalf, and not their paymaster's?

RumRunner: Yes, this really does need to sit outside "cult mentality." I really only started it in ATW because so many of us have had our critical thinking skills crushed by TWI. And because I wanted to get people thinking. Critical thinking skills are essential to any good decision making. And yes, children are good at asking "why?" to the annoyance of adults so that the adults want to shut the kids up. Better training of older children would be to encourage them to ask questions at specific times, and then to give them as complete an answer as possible and to encourage (guide) them to find out and dissect other answers for themselves ("find [6] different answers on the net; what do they have in common and what differs? Why? What does it show you about the author's POV?" etc) So much can crush our critical thinking skills. A lot in the world at large is to do with media presentation, so that we see this person or that political party as goodies or baddies. My PoV as a Brit is sometimes considerably different from that of many Americans on a lot of international issues - it doesn't make either me or Americans right or wrong. Why might our PoVs differ? Probably a Chinese or a Zimbabwean would see things differently again. Maybe we're all right or all wrong. It depends what propaganda (okay, media reporting) we are subject to. It's quite interesting sometimes to analyze advertisements, especially for similar products, and consider why one might "sell" better than another. T-Bone, I like your thought of periodic maintenance and specially about re-calibrating. And it's never shameful to change one's PoV, opinion, etc, if more information is found out. In fact, surely it's shameful to hang onto a previous opinion that is shown to be in error (how many adults really do still believe in Santa Claus, or did we not change our minds when later evidence disproved Santa's existence?). We're happy enough to do this in small things; why not big things as well?

Charles Wesley: Quote from this article: http://en.wikipedia....iki/John_Wesley His brother Charles also travelled on evangelising missions, and wrote many hymns. Some of those are still familiar today. http://en.wikipedia..../Charles_Wesley The Wesley brothers travelled miles on horseback in dreadful weather conditions, across moors and through bogs. After some years, some Christians made a little room for them at the side of their house; it became a tiny chapel and is still there to this day. They lived it and breathed it. They walked the talk. They didn't do it for the money (what money??!!) I really would like to see some of these modern-day wannabe ministers sent out in the clothes they wear, $20 in their pocket, and forbid them or any organisation with which they may be associated from accepting any money or gifts in kind. I'd like to see some of them helping at soup kitchens, hospices, rehabilitation units - doing something. I'd like to see them washing someone's feet, wiping someone's bum, cleaning vomit off drunks, befriending homeless people. Then, when they've learned something about servanthood - then, they might have something to share and teach. I don't limit this to splinter group leaders, either. What about some of these televangelists? Yeah, right. Lot of fellowship, communion, personal interaction...with a TV set.

First thought on this? Oh heck. Another splinter group forming up out there. And now pond says, "John didnt tell them he was leaving stf until a couple of months ago....to begin his own ministry." Pond, how do you know this? Soon we won't be able to see the wood for the ... splinters... At the top of a lot of GSC pages, we see JL's letter about the Truth about TWI. Are we going to see his letter about the Truth about STFI next?

Or does this just show what fuddy-duddies we all are, not having the imagination to think of Facebook as a rescue device? Who missed out on raising these kids, not teaching them to call emergency services? Perhaps the kids didn't think it was an emergency - not life-threatening (yet) and no broken bones, etc.

No no no, JT. The pile should all run perfectly in the same direction. After you have vac'd thoroughly, then you draw the vac back over the carpet to lay the pile nicely. Then - get this - you walk across the middle of it. That's because carpets are to be walked on, not admired. Well...that's how they did in at the Aud on that red carpet on the top landing. Must remember to walk on it. ...chequered pattern??? That would probably get you bounced back to dishroom duty.

"Lord of the Wings"

Leafy, I thought this bore repeating. Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!): Cheranne, you're right, getting rid of TWI thinking is rather like "re-wiring" your brain. This time, however, we get to examine the credentials of the one doing the re-wiring - perhaps in light of Leafy's suggestions. What has this new electrician got to gain by doing the re-wiring? What's his agenda? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

Notta, thanks, now I finally get it... All that groping and assaulting of, sorry, loving service by, young females is simply them tithing, or rendering their ABS to the MoG.

Proverbs 15:1 1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Don't pick fights that don't need to be fought.

Set to open next month is a new McDonalds ... in France! Right next to the Louvre, that most famous French museum. It's something like their 1,147th branch. Apparently "McDo" is very popular in France (woah, you still think French people are the gastronomes of Europe?) Apparently McDo is ultra-popular. Unbelievable. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article4560082.ece

Nice posts, Cheranne, and there is plenty of information on these threads about cult indoctrination. Recognizing its effects is a way of combatting it. But my question is: what (exactly) has helped people here to develop, re-discover, their critical thinking skills? It's probably more than just hanging out with "essentially normal" people: because the cult mindset makes such people outside the group and thus viewed skeptically. Just "hanging out" with them is more likely to reinforce the defective thinking.

Oh how could we all be so silly and not realize that was what that verse meant?

Wouldn't it be nice if those who hold a trinitarian/non-trinitarian view concentrated on what they have in common, not what they have differences about. Establish the common ground, before exploring the differences, and the reason(s) for the differences. Jesus died for ALL of us (whether Jew, Christian, Buddhist, animist or whatever), that "WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." After that, we can do this: Ro 12:3,18 - Every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly...As much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.In other words, we shouldn't be doing the work of the enemy, the father of lies, and debate about the "worth" or another or another's opinion, but rather, should "speak the truth in love". There is (I say it again) a lot more that we have in common than what separates us. Even if what we say is absolutely true but we don't speak it in love but in contention, then we're wrong.

And, of course, you'd be the one that was labelled pozzezzed. Dunno where you found the self-control not to cause him permanent damage.

Jeff, that's about right. Great answer Hiway. Here's your prizes. Choose nicely. Turn and turn about.

Linda, our 4 hours of private study was what we were told we were getting... and then on some Mondays we had to listen to a repeat of the SNS (because not everyone had heard it, too busy wrapping burgers/tending kids/whatever); we got a replay of the Corps Night teaching on some Thursdays; we got to do "public speaking" (how to introduce an incident about What God Has Done For Me into a conversation); sometimes we had a twig meeting, though these weren't common; and the study was interrupted every other day by us having to run across to the Way Woods, chop wood for 3/4 hour or so, then run back and carry on studying. (This was our physical exercise for the days when we didn't get up at 5.30 and go running round the grounds.) If study was in the afternoon and the noon meal overran (ie, LCM had some big rant about something) - then we had to wash all the dishes and the floors - well, too bad, that was a big chunk of our study time. Also it varied according to what events were on and if there were classes for field people (cos you know who got the joy and privilege of serving them, don't you?) then that was our study time again. It varied from month to month (and nothing at all in the run-up to RoA from about late May). Some weeks there was little private study time; other weeks there was more. It wasn't directed; we could do what we wanted though it was assumed after listening to SNS or CN that we would go away and "work" that material. We didn't get any of the classes you mentioned. But then, there was nobody around, as it were. Those who might have been able to teach had been run off or left in the fog years. There was no "research team" at all. It was "optional" to attend the SNS rehearsal (straight after breakfast on Sunday morning) (yeah, right, try exercising your option not to attend), then we had to run to the BRC to be at the 10.30am fellowship, then we got lunch, then perhaps an hour's downtime (snooze?) then we'd be getting ready for the SNS - people working in the Aud (AV, meet and greet, backstage) had to be there very early. Others would be doing other prep work. Sunday evenings were usually free, as long as visitors were gone and the dishwashing (the interminable dishwashing) was done. Yep, LCM assigned my research paper. By the time to choose, I was so beaten down and suffering from low self-esteem that I think I'd selectd soemthing about overcoming condemnation (ie, that very condemnation that they had taught me!!!). Instead, he wanted me to research "An Answer of Truth in the Face of Accusation." It started as a word study of the Gk word apokrinomai, which is used a lot in the Gospel of John (where it's often translated in KJV as answered and said). I found a Hebrew word meaning similar but not quite the same, and the project took me all over the Bible with lots of interesting side forays. I have no recollection of any "adviser" or mentor, or discussing it in any formal way, or any sort of review meeting from time to time, not even with the Corps Coordinator, though I may have forgotten after all this time. What I think LCM really wanted, was for me to do his research for him into him giving an "answer of truth" to his many critics; it wasn't too long after the fog years. Instead, what I came up with was along the lines that the answer was in the way you conducted your life - walking the talk, basically. Any accusation could be backed down if you were doing what you were supposed to be doing, according to Biblical principle. The answer is to line up your heart with God's compassion, and live that way, extending that as genuine care and love to the people around you. ...You can see why that would go down like a lead balloon.