Twinky

I posted something ages ago, and this quote (posted by another Cafe denizen) made it into Grease Spot Gems in September 2006: No doubt if you search the threads, you'll find the original... LOL.

Like, "The Art of Followship," about the joys and pleasures and godly satisfaction of obedience to your husband?

Tonight, I went to my city's public firework display. Pretty good one, too, lasted 20 mins with a wide range of different types of fireworks. All the roads near the central area of the city were blocked by people standing around, and later, by the pedestrians walking away. Great crowd atmosphere. On the way home, saw a few private fireworks being let off in people's gardens. And that was that. 'S all that ever happens. Country areas might have a huge bonfire (and no doubt there will be some of those + fireworks over this coming weekend). Just a bit of fun on a dark evening prior to the Christmas run-up getting under way.

Jeepers, I thought I was the only one with no real friends. Sorry to see that I am wrong. When I first got M&A'd, when I could pick up a Bible again I did some reading in the gospels about what a friend is. It was so miserable and depressing that my efforts didn't last long. Might get different results if I tried the same thing now. There are so many levels of friendship. But the number of folks in one's innermost circle is very small. Actually I have a pretty good support group/ network of friends, who do care and share. And who would help in any way they could. But real intimates? Very few.

Bonfire Night is not a holiday, never has been. Just bonfires and lots of fireworks. These days the fireworks tend to be more in public displays, not privately in people's back gardens. It is not known as Guy Fawkes Day or any such thing. A rocket to the person who mentioned it was LCM's birthday. :-( Burning LCM's effigy might not be a bad thing but wouldn't want his memory perpetuated over the centuries.

Yeah, but don't I remember: "God said it, that settles it, I believe it!"? Did he just twist the little phrase around, or do I remember it wrongly?

Waysider, here's another perspective on Mithraism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras and you will see that the first para, which is expanded upon in the body, states: "The Mithraic Mysteries or Mysteries of Mithras (also Mithraism) was a mystery religion, which became popular among the military in the Roman Empire, from the 1st to 4th centuries AD. Information on the cult is based mainly on interpretations of monuments. These depict Mithras as born from a rock and sacrificing a bull. His worshippers had a complex system of 7 grades of initiation, with ritual meals. They met in underground temples. Little else is known for certain." In other words, Mithraism is the counterfeit - not Christianity. But we're agreed on your statement: "Looking back, it's obvious Wierwille had discovered that, if there were questions he really didn't know the answer to, he could simply play the "devil's trickery" card."

What holiday?

Man, there was a time I thought they would take me onto staff. The prospect was dismal. I had to go lots of long walks in the hills to wrestle my mind round the thought of it. Anyway, they dropped me instead. That was dire. Very dire. Mildly interesting to ponder which would have been worse. Glad I'm out.

These interviews... Who were they with? Who selected the interviewees? Were they selected at random, and by the interviewers, or were they selected by TWI? What "priming" went on before the visit of the interviewers? Wonder how free the interviewees felt at saying what they themselves wanted to say? How expert were the interviewers at sussing out egregious behavior (that which is actually "normal" at HQ)? (Wonder what background information they had been given!) Was it only at HQ or did staff elsewhere (Gunnison? Indiana campus?) get to play, too? What about believers (esp Corps) on the field; were they interviewed too? Because they also came under severe restrictions. Bearing in mind that we all got to accept "normal" as the way things were done at HQ concurrently with thinking outsiders just wouldn't understand, it wouldn't be surprising if there were a degree of cover-up, not fully disclosing, or fudged answers. Especially if there were some paranoia about the results getting back to RFR. Is this set of interviews the precursor to the "softer, kinder" TWI? Not merely the appointment of a new leader (RFR)? It's good that there was some relaxation of the stranglehold, but from what OldSkool and YourMum say, sounds like it might be a temporary release in order to get a tighter grip later. Cult experts ... (snort!!!) :wacko::excl:

Sunesis ... now how could anyone be offended by so helpful and detailed a response? Thank you! I'm reading through the OT (well, so far, Pentateuch) in two different versions (neither KJV), with my Lion Handbook and other study aids (so slow going), and just thinking about all the things that tend to be forgotten. Or where there was never any explanation from TWI. So there may well be more "can you help?" cries!

Variation on a theme: VP had just recently discovered that God's Word is God's will. He believed The Word about salvation, With greediness he was filled. His life was full of lust, gybes, p1ss, Yes, he'd been saved by grace. But he had an opportunity, A malignant growth, a sore upon his face. VP had been reading in The Word How in old, elders anointing with oil And he knew some of that oil Would heal his cancerous boil. He went down to the drugstore And he said to the clerk, "I want to buy some oil to get a job done. I know it'll work." "What kind of oil do you require? 3-in-1, olive, camphor, flax or is it castor you desire?" VP replied, " I don't guess it matters what brand or kind." "Just give me some of that castor oil kind." VP went straight home, The bottle of castor oil he uncapped, Stood before the mirror, Rubbed the castor oil on his face with a gentle pat. "Lord", he said, "I'm doing the best I can." "If you'll do your best, I know that I'll be healed." I 'spose you're wondering what happened to VP And that cancer sore. VP's eye did badly And he doesn't have his eye anymore. VP learned something A lot of us seem to forget. Believe God, do the best you can And SEE YOUR DOC AS WELL! (edited cos I obviously used a rude word, lol)

Eye don't quite see this. Eye don't think VPW did either. Or maybe he didn't try putting castor oil in his cancerous eye.

Interesting! Can't get into the forums, though. Like the "Love Letters" section. Would be interesting if anyone here was the beneficiary of such a letter, and it helped them make the decision to leave.

T-Bone, I am DEFINITELY coming to spend some time with you and Tonto!! Your wooden ear and my - interesting - singing voice could be jolly good fun. (I jest, I sing quite well) Next Texas BBQ at your place!

Thank you very much for responses on this thread. Especially that very lengthy description/explanation, Sunesis. Now to engage the gray matter...

You'll find most are here for much the same reasons. Plus, it helps to be able to "talk things over" with others who understand because they've been subjected to more or less the same junk, even if at different times of TWI history. Strangers who have never had affiliation with TWI just wonder why you put up with it so long. Enjoy getting your mind straight!

I’ve been reading a lot in the OT lately and specifically in the early books. I ponder on Exodus 7 and the following chapters.  A sign: Aaron’s staff cast down, becomes a snake. Magicians do likewise.  Plague 1: Nile and all water becomes “blood” 7:19 in rivers and all containers; :22 Magicians do likewise. :24 People had to dig around the Nile to try to get water.  Plague 2: Swarms of frogs; :7 Magicians do likewise; Pharaoh will let people go – then changes mind  Plague 3: Gnats/lice/little biting critters; :18 Magicians cannot do likewise  Plague 4: Swarms of flies; Magicians: not mentioned; Pharaoh will let people go – then changes mind  Plague 5: Death of livestock in fields; Israelites separated; not affected; Magicians: not mentioned  Plague 6: Furnace soot – becomes boils on man and beast; Magicians: also afflicted; can’t get rid of  Plague 7: Hail, killing all in fields and ruining crops; All spared who respected warning – Egyptians inc; Israelites not affected in land of Goshen; Magicians: not mentioned  Plague 8: Locusts; Pharaoh under pressure from his own officials; Pharaoh agrees men only can go. Recants.  Plague 8: Darkness; Pharaoh agrees all people can go, but not animals. Moses declines.  Plague 10: Death of firstborn; Israelites, all people and flocks, expelled. I am mightily intrigued by these events. Especially (right now) by the magicians doing likewise. In the first sign (staff becoming snake), how come the magicians are able to do this? In the first plague, where did the magicians get their water from? When all water, whether in the river or in containers, was “blood”? How do they themselves turn the water into “blood”? It was only later that the people dug around the Nile for water. In plague 2, how do they “make” (?) the frogs? The phrase “And the magicians did likewise” has always puzzled me and I’ve never seen any explanation. Even Bullinger doesn’t comment, in The Companion Bible. He just says that God “allows” them to do this. Bullinger also says that each of the plagues is aimed at specific Egyptian gods or symbols of worship. That sort of makes sense to me, but I don’t know enough of Egyptian gods to be able to comment. I understand they had dog-headed and bird-headed gods, but there are no plagues against those. The Lion Handbook suggests a series of natural disasters starting with a heavy flood in the Nile, bringing thick red clay from Ethiopia, or red algae that polluted the water. I wonder if any of our widely divergent group of folk here can add anything about any of this portion of scripture?

Hello OldSkool, welcome to the real world. Glad you've finally been able to leave. Lurking for so many years before leaving suggests you had good reason to stay - family still in, perhaps? You will go through some ups and downs, but if you've lurked, you'll know some of what to expect. Enjoy exploring what you really do believe. Munch on this while you do so. BTW if you look at the bottom underneath a post, not within a post, you will see a dark blue Reply button (not the light blue in the post) - if you click on that, you will not repeat the text of the replied-to post.

"Systematic theology" ? As regards theology, I don't think I can agree it was systematic. It was, as you say, a mishmash. Having said that, however, it did take me into parts of the Bible that otherwise I probably wouldn't have explored, read, got to know anything about. Some of it relates to NT teachings, and some of it is on a theme of some description. It was all very pseudo - took us hither and thither, using verses on an alleged theme but whipping through them so fast that it was difficult to grasp the context of a verse that was being used in support of that theme. Sometimes to understand a verse might require reading the rest of the chapter before and after; sometimes several chapters either way. And then we were kept so busy that we had no time to go back and really consider the verse in its context. The PFAL foundational class "crammer" got people used to this hopping-about idea really quickly; after all, that's what so much of PFAL is about. Part of the overall impression given that this "teacher" is widely understanding of the Bible as a whole. All this hopping about gives the impression of being widely read, widely understanding, the Bible; but in fact any fool with a concordance can pull verses out of context. And because things were never set in their cultural context (not the Israelite culture, nor the wider middle eastern culture understood to be prevailing at any given time), again there was no context for a verse grabbed at random. Long ago, T-Bone, you recommended reading he Lion Handbook to the Bible. I have a copy and it is really excellent at setting things in their cultural context, both immediately and in the wider middle eastern context, by comparing with other tribal cultures of the time (Assyrians, Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, etc) ascertained from archaeological artefacts. I do think, however, that VPW-ology was systematic - systematic deception.

T-Bone - it is scary how much of that is stuffed in the back of our miinds. Sometimes I hate coming here because "it brings it all back" and keeps it on the surface when I'd rather just forget all about it. However, once this junk is on the surface, it can be addressed, properly considered, and despatched into the round cabinet for all time. To my horror, a few weeks ago I found myself starting to say one of the "junk science" things mentioned in this thread (ie, before this thread started). I kinda petered out mid-sentence and the person I was speaking to (very sharp, quick to pick up oddities) didn't appear to notice at all and has never mentioned it. Help, I need brainwashing!!

Dunno, George. Seems to me he is doing something worthwhile...giving us all a chuckle (if not more) at the sheer stupidity of this wheel going round and round and round and round.... A merry heart doth good like a medicine. See, JAL is good for your heart. That's if your frustration level doesn't give you a head injury first, because of banging your head against the wall.

Seems to be working now. Thanks, GT.

Okay, now with the Reputation buttons...I don't use these a lot but did see something that I'd mark as a + today. However, I got a message that I'd used my quota of + for the day. As it was the only time I've tried to do this today - do I have a nil quota? Similar thing happened last week.

Yeah, Oak, I know. Stoopid, ennit? We know VPW and LCM got their info from Witness of the Stars; but where did Bullinger get his info? He was a theologian, not an astronomer.