Twinky

Unsurprisingly, overwhelmingly from the USA, at 82%. Also overwhelmingly white/caucasian, which is a little disappointing but don't know if that's because TWI was not attractive or welcoming to non-whites; or GSC is not attractive to non-whites, or maybe non-whites have "got a life" elsewhere by now (shrug). Or maybe many other reasons. Would the antipodean please PM me and introduce yourself? Whereabouts do you live? Bolshevik - hope you've discovered by now that antipodeans are interesting characters in their own right, though with perhaps not as much variety as anthopods. Here's a little anthropod summary for you:

Your friend will need a lot of time and patience. It's no easy thing, losing the ministry, church, what-have-you, that has been such a big part of one's life. Losing a husband, who has been another big part of one's life. Losing a significant part of one's own thinking ability, crushed beneath the weight of legalism. It may help to point her to the Cafe, where she will see that what has happened to her is part of a pattern of behavior towards women. It may not help. Be a friend, if she will let you. Even if she won't. Expect erratic behavior. Be very patient, very kind, very gentle.

The "health and wealth" that T-Bone refers to is, in my opinion, overrated and not at all what is promised. God never promised anybody pots of money. The streets paved with gold are in the book of Revelation, not in the epistles or gospels. Too much emphasis is put on physical wealth, in the TWI version. And there is not enough "giving." Except to TWI, that is. Folks, think how much you have! How many rooms in your house? How many cars in your garage? How many clothes for your body? How much access to healthcare, clean water, food? Think also how impoverished some Christians in other countries are - maybe no shoes, maybe as much food for a week as you might eat for a snack between meals. Your physical wealth may well be at the expense of some poor soul in a third world country. And yet - many of those people are so thankful for the deliverance, the clean hearts, the forgiveness of sins. Some are imprisoned, persecuted, ostracized from their communities. They consider themselves blessed, not punished for their lack of believing. Prosper is an old English word that just means "does well" with no implication of financial doing well. Chambers Dictionary: prosper verb (prospered, prospering) 1 said of someone: intrans to do well, especially financially. 2 said of a business, etc: to thrive or flourish. ETYMOLOGY: 15c: from French prospérer, from Latin prosperari to succeed. My great grandfather's greeting, and his son, my grandfather's was, "How're you prospering?" meaning exactly the same as "How're you doing?" It doesn't mean, how's your bank balance? A plant can "prosper" in the garden. If you're going to use an archaic version of the Bible, ascribe meanings to the words that are archaic. For instance, New Living Translation says this: "Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit" NIV says: "Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well." This material prosperity aspect was heavily pushed in PFAL, and also in a lot of other US televangelist church doctrines. It ain't so, folks. The disconnect that bad things can and do happen is hardly mentioned. Yet these bad things are a "promise" in the gospels, by Jesus himself. Witness the lives (and deaths) of the early Christians. Witness the life of Paul as set out in Acts and the epistles (stoning? shipwreck? false imprisonment? despised by many? penniless, at times?). Witness - Hebrews! TWI would not like to scare people off by laying out that bad things happen too. That "the adversary" will score a direct hit once in a while, and lots of indirect hits. Instead of God's grace, freely given, in always seeing us through - we got "God's legalism" - "You must believe this for that to happen." Live life, stay faithful, stay thankful. Goes a long long way.

Just an update on this woman. She has an album due to be released on 23 Nov, ie, next week - and it is already a chart topper! (emphasis added) So, Grease Spotter fans - your chance for your very own piece of Susan.

Welcome, Soul Searcher. Enjoy looking around the Cafe. You'll find a variety of views represented here. Some still harbor Way-like views, and others will run a mile. I have to say, I met some of the best, most decent people ever, at TWI. There were a lot of good folks who genuinely wanted to do good for God. They were enthusiastic - for God. For the most part, I haven't found that level of commitment in churches or in other Christians. It's my guess that most of those decent people have been run off, banned, or left of their own accord. Alternatively, they have been lured and corrupted to fit with the general ethos of TWI. On the other hand, I also met some of the meanest, most uncompassionate, legalistic b@$tards ever. So full of rules, all done with a smile, because it's God's will, doncha know? Bent on curtailing anything spontaneous, wherever it emanated from. As for high-ranking leadership, there are horror stories abounding here. But it's safe to say, there are a lot of horror stories in mainstream churches too, about some of the evil things that leadership did there - eg, pedophilia and child abuse by RC priests. How has your friend's marriage turned out? Are she and her husband still together? If so...do they actually trust each other?

Jeff (and Dawn) - it's amazing how many of these violent bullies smile in public, and then, behind closed doors, beat up on weaker victims (usually wives) when they get home or behind closed doors, and then maybe say, "Look what YOU made me do!" They retain self-control at the time of an alleged misdemeanor, stew on it some, then let the violence explode in secret. I'd like to see some of these bullies accused of, say pedophilia or some other false allegation, and then put in a room with some big prison bruisers armed with minor weapons like jug cords, bike chains and so on. The bullies would be the first to call "foul!" (Well...I don't really wish ill to anyone. I just wish they'd come to their senses and start behaving like decent human beings.)

Thank you, Waysider and Bowtwi. This last 18 months has been very difficult. Immensely frustrating, depressing, mess-with-the-head stuff. Especially when I have to deal with the office that deals with the State support that I'm getting - not so often now the claim is set up. Those times, I lie on the floor and weep, or soak a cushion with tears, and enter a state of stultification for the rest of the day. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) I am getting used to the routine so it's not quite so stressful. Yet through it all I sense God's hand of blessing and protection. Just when I've needed it, something has come through for me. I have some great friends and people at my church genuinely love and care for me. I am invited out for meals, or just given little gifts (a bunch of flowers, box of chocs) - just because they want to bless me. Physical abundance - there's too much of. My little house is overflowing with stuff. The best thing is that I have acquired a new sense of who God is and what he wants for me. His peace, love, gentleness, kindness, permeate life. I'm much more deeply aware of Him and his will now than ever before. Within myself, I find a mellowness and calm that I didn't know. There is more patience, more compassion, more kindness towards others. So I'm content to think that this is all in God's hands, and now that the scales have fallen from my eyes, it's His time to allow me to readjust my thinking, reconsider old teaching, work out what's good for me, enjoy his many blessings. I constantly believe that the next job I apply for (or at least get interviewed for) is going to be the one that has my name on it. But it will be in His time...when I am really ready for it. Still, I can't understand why it is so slow and so absent. Is there something wrong with the way I present myself? Am I still "spiky" - though new friends don't seem to think so. This huge erosion of my skills and abilities sits there in my CV and in my life like a big black hole. The "lost years," as I call them, contain bigger losses than I'd realized. You could look at my CV and think, "Well, she tried this, she tried that...failed at the lot. Never stays anywhere long." ...All that's completely untrue but perhaps that's how it appears. I'm upskilling in some areas but I doubt I will ever fully return to my profession, though I may gain work in parallel areas. I know this: that I am in my house because this is where God wanted me (it was weird how I came to be here); and I got the mortgage and other money to buy the house quite amazingly. And God knows the future and must have known the last job would end. He wouldn't have arranged all that just to have me thrown out homeless in 12 months time... would he? So something good will happen before then. Ideally much sooner!

I am angry. I am upset. I am mightily p'd off. I got laid off from my job 18 months ago. I have been trying really hard to find work, any work, since then. It seems to be that I am either over-qualified (with demanding professional qualifications) or under-qualified (with not quite up to date qualifications for some of the jobs I have been offered. The job I lost was my return to my profession…the profession I gave up for TWI. The job was in the property selling area. And when no houses are being bought or sold…there isn't any work. Since then, I've applied for many jobs of great variety, often at quite junior level, where I have more than enough ability to fulfil the job requirements. Recently I applied for what looked like a great job, combining many aspects of skills that are current and historical. It looked a good fit. I worked very hard preparing for the interview. It went well. I liked the people and they appeared to like me. And today, I learned that they are offering the job to somebody else. I am angry. Upset. Mightily p'd off. Because if I hadn't tangled with TWI and in particular hadn't wasted so many years being majorly depressed after they M&A'd me – when I was incapable of doing anything and especially incapable of holding proper conversations – without that interlude…things would have been very different. ================== In brief, I got more or less bamboozled into applying to join the WC. It wasn't long after I went into residence that the bullying really started. LCM (yes, it was he) had several ranting sessions about people who wanted to return to their professions after their WC training. "Dogs returning to vomit" was a common expression. Such people who returned to their former professions or trades were looked down on with the greatest of contempt. Well, keeping it short: I got M&A'd. It was utterly utterly devastating. It was like being at the bottom of a deep well and all my efforts made me slip more and more down the well. I couldn't speak to anyone without bursting into tears. Couldn't dress or find something to eat without that decision being too much. I couldn't handle myself. No way could I consider any return to anything even slightly professionally demanding. Amazing my then boss was so understanding as to keep me on. I reached a modicum of getting along. I learned to talk to people and regained the weight I'd lost. But inside I was deeply unhappy. Desperately miserable. Life was utterly meaningless. I was horrible to be around. Very spiky and difficult. Nobody liked me…not even I liked me. Actually I despised me. And I must have spent nearly ten years feeling like this. Listless, afraid, sick at heart. Ruined. I was preparing to crawl back to TWI and beg forgiveness for whatever sins I'd committed (clearly too numerous to mention, especially to me) when I stumbled into the Café. Boy oh boy. I read in fascinated horror of what had been going on since before I'd ever heard of TWI, during the time I was there, and afterwards. And, as it were, scales fell from my eyes. ================== Now, I feel I have recovered my sound mind, can evaluate what was taught, can form my own opinions and think through carefully what I've seen, heard, read, studied…life is wonderful. I found an intense "women returners refresher course" and though it was fully subscribed, at the very last minute, a few extra places opened up and one was offered to me. I applied for lots of jobs and amazingly, after 17 years (yes, seventeen years) out of my profession in my home country… I finally landed a job within my profession. Miracle of miracles. It seemed that God was restoring double to me. I bought a house (because, now, I'd plucked up the courage to take on this major debt). Then the property market crashed… taking my job as a casualty. Leaving me with a mortgage. And now… no job for 18 months. I should have been at peak earning capacity now. I should have many years experience, a deep and wide knowledge within my profession. I should have a lot to help others with. I should be a partner in my own practice by now. Instead, I have a huge "hole in my CV," a lack of knowledge. In an aggressive profession, I'm left way behind. My profession is only a fragment of what is lost: no husband, no long-for children either. I can't begin to express those losses. I am so thankful for what God has taught me in the years since the scales fell away, and for the Galatians fruit that is now evident in my life in a way that I never saw in TWI. I thank my God every day for my sound mind and the opportunity to share and help others; for the financial support my country has provided for me; for the friends who have gathered round me and who love me and genuinely care for me; for old friends who never held my weirdness against me; for new friends who accept me as I am. I'm grateful for this aboundingly beautiful life and for all the things my God has provided for me. I simply cannot understand why I do not have a job. And I cannot stand getting all these rejections. So I am angry. I am upset. I am mightily p'd off. TWI taught me that rubbish. I stupidly believed it - what a mug! I stupidly believed they were a loving Christian organization. Hah!!! Some of the people were. The ethos was not. I know this is nothing new. In the face of another rejection just a short while ago, I needed to vent a little. Feel better now. Anybody who wants, can pray for me that in the employment area, the windows of heaven will open real soon and deluge me with job offers.

Woah - back up a minute... He taped an apology? :blink: An apology for what, exactly? Just for his "one-time consensual affair" (gag) or for his behavior over many years? His misleading of people? His wresting of the scriptures? His instilling of fear in who knows how many? The mental / spiritual abuse he put so many through? The policy of "mark and avoid"? ...did I miss something? And, of course, in spirit of this new openness and (what was it that Ric0 called it?) explanation - this apology is available on the TWI website, yes, so that all who were abused can listen?

I think they have their own version of something or other. Guess that's a question I should have asked at the first IV but you know, you can't think of everything. Recommendations, anyone, on something well used? For programming for a professional (legal) program, so will use databases to record strings of data, but not many math formulae - just adding/subtracting figures (to make bills) and working out tax. Maybe a few other percentages. Nothing scientific, highly technical, trig or stuff like that.

Well, just picking up on this thread again. I don't think I particularly liked the book. It's now some months since I read it, and it's not very memorable. Maybe I should re-read it. On the other hand, I read "Left Behind" (only the first one, Iunderstand there are quite a number of them) and that was memorable.

Sticking with the planetary theme suggested by GSG: Plutocratic (Adj.) from Plutocracy = rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth. In a plutocracy, the degree of economic inequality is high while the level of social mobility is low. The word plutocracy is derived from the ancient Greek root ploutos, meaning wealth and kratos, meaning to rule or to govern Earthy (adj) 1. Of, consisting of, or resembling earth: an earthy smell. 2. Of or characteristic of this world; worldly. 3. Crude or off-color; indecent: an earthy joke. 4. Hearty or uninhibited; natural: an earthy enjoyment of life. 5. Unadorned and simple in style: an earthy homemade stew Martindale’s plutocratic reign gave opportunity to his earthy behavior. (Your ABS at work again!) (For those interested in planets, that leaves Uranus and Neptune...and Uranus in context of earthy behavior...wasn't a good look, LOL)

This is very painful and difficult for you, Dawn. Please be aware that anyone can read this forum - friends, enemies, those who would help you, those who would hurt you. Dave, Victor, perhaps! I'm sorry you were so abused. You were not alone. Unfortunately this outrageous treatment of women didn't start with Dave or VB and didn't end with them either. Some women have been threatened with firearms, others physically assaulted needing hospital treatment. I'm not belittling your experience: it was endemic through TWI and its offshoots. You didn't do anything to deserve it - it is not your fault.

I've been reading lately in The Lion Handbook to the Bible. I just came across this statement: (emphasis added) As I've been reading many different versions after escaping TWI, I've been struck by the better way things are expressed. Sometimes the better way accords with notes in The Companion Bible, showing perhaps how frustrated Bullinger may have been at some of the KJV translations. Reading versions from RSV through The Message gives a much fuller understanding of what the text may have been intended to say. What I do recall, however, is that VPW and later LCM would give alternative "translations" of verses of KJV, saying, "This is what is actually says," or words to that effect (a better choice of tense, perhaps) - a literal according to usage - and that's so clearly what some other version says. I wonder if, at least in the later days, Biblical research was reduced to reading other versions of the Bible and presenting those versions as "better translations" or "literals according to usage." Amplified would be a great version to base "literals" on. Of course, none of us would ever know, since use of other than KJV was virtually unknown. That's if we even had time to read and assimilate.

I really don't remember my first teaching...too much water under the bridge. However, I do remember another, when it would have been early days. Immature believer that I was, I thought that "make it your own" meant understand it and be able to express it in your own words, use your own expressions, choose appropriate examples from wherever seemed appropriate in the Bible - not recite word for word somebody else's work. So that's what I did. The bemused or bewildered faces of those listening showed me clearly that they didn't follow my train of thought and this was not what they expected. Don't think I was ever invited to teach there again. Had they wanted a parrot, they should have bought one.

Here I am with an old joint honours degree in computer systems and my professional subject. Computing skills were good at the time, but heck, I punched the cards myself to go into the big mainframe. (Do I hear some of you say, mainframe??) I learned to program in about 4 different languages. And then I pursued the professional side of my degree, not the computing side. Now a great job is in the cards, with a software company. First IV went well (where they were looking at people skills, ability to train others, and approach to meeting people). They are impressed with my professional background. Second IV next week will test technical ability. In this job role I will need to tailor the software house's own software by scripting to take account of the target firm's own requirements. The firm will obviously provide training on its own programs, software, training packages, etc, but it would be helpful for me to upskill and at least have an idea about scripting. Can anyone here recommend online tutorials, training etc - FREE! - that I can practice with? Currently I use Mozilla; I know some online tutorials use IE which I use only occasionally now.

How about asking what PRACTICAL APPLICATION of said research people adopt - like helping the disadvantaged? (= what is the end result of their research?)

Your reply: "Gosh, that's wonderful of you. I will be blessed when I can sit down, kick my shoes off, and drink a fresh cup of coffee. And you got my favorite blend of coffee! And you put my favorite cushion on the couch!! And, aw, that's so good of you - you cleaned the house all through!!!"

OldSkool, did you see this thread, started somewhat earlier than this current thread?

Gimme a nice glass of (alcoholic) cider any day!

I'm sure they do, Waysider. TWI probably has more "fame" through the cafe than of its own account, nowadays. But let's face it - TWI doesn't listen, does it?

Burford, welcome. You've been a lurker for some time (judging by when you signed up), so welcome to the hurly-burly of joining in the conversations here. Let me welcome you in good old GSC style: (edited to overcome my temporary dyslexia)

Chockfull, you did read the whole of the para where I first mentioned "libellous," didn't you? At first sight, what I read did seem libellous. I accepted that the comments weren't libellous when I understood better. I've been on the receiving end of some of the ill-treatment - made it easier to understand the truth of it. And, Chockfull... I know what libel is. I am a lawyer!

Has anything ever been the fault of TWI and its teachings? If you're a low-ranker, it's your fault if something bad happens. If you're higher ranking, bad stuff happens because you are "standing in the gap." As far as I know, standing in gaps causes drafts round the neck, which may make the neck stiff. And you don't get much stiffer-necked than TWI. Guess they do a lot of standing in gaps.

'Twas the same with the old PFAL class. At every fellowship, the question was (asked enthusiastically), "Have you taken the class yet?" and if you asked a question, "Oh, you'll understand that, once you've taken the class." This was from a bunch of WoWs and I believe they were genuinely committed to God and loved Him. They'd learned what they'd learned from TWI and it was the only place they knew to get "fed." So of course it was the only place they could refer others to "get fed." In setting the hook, however, you overlook another significant aspect. That is the dearth of proper teaching in mainstream churches. Teaching, not rhetoric, not emotion, and not wishy-washy sermons where if a Bible is opened it's a rarity. PFAL (and presumably WAP) got people opening their Bibles and reading, and gave "explanations" of passages that churches didn't. Was Jesus a lure? Maybe. If your prey is hungry enough, you don't need much of a lure.