Twinky

Just thought I'd start a new thread, because the other one is so very long, but will include a link to the last page. Right now my garden is probably not growing anything...subzero temps have left the whole garden covered in frost. Looks pretty with everything rimed in hoar frost, but the paths are slippery with ice and my visits to the compost bin are few. My fishpond is under ice, which at least protects my solitary remaining fish from the hungry heron. The brassicas this year did very badly and are cowering down and refusing to stick their heads into the freezing fog. Maybe they will develop a bit better in a month or two. gc, is it any warmer where you are?

Welcome! Settle in with cake and coffee. Enjoy the debate around here. In answer to your question: I never believed Jesus was God before; it never made sense. And it doesn't make sense now. The idea of "killing" God is too bizarre for words. Killing the creator of the heavens and the earth? :wacko: Why would anyone want a mortal "God"? And how could a different - being, for want of a better word - be the perfect sacrifice of a "lamb of the first year"? Wouldn't that be like sacrificing an elephant and calling it a lamb? Or calling a turtle dove, a genuine substitutionary sacrifice, a "lamb"? It's not even sacrificing a goat in substitution for a lamb.

Well, maybe for you, Bolshevik, but most of the people I met were what you'd call "normal." Everyone has needs of one sort or another, even if just the need for companionship. Are you, or were you, so perfect, then? Huh? Who is perfect, who has no needs, no "screw ups"? Don't you think that is a bit harsh as a generalisation? Are you really accusing everyone here at the Cafe of being "mentally handicapped" or "just screwed up in general"? What interested me was simply that there was some sort of coherent teaching. I was fed up with churches and wishy-washy stuff - nice people, but no Bible teaching to speak of. And here was someone who took me all sorts of different places in the Bible and (mostly) made it hang together. I'd already been reading for myself and wished I could understand better. The errors in PFAL I flagged away as imperfect knowledge that could be developed or expanded later; after all, it was a research ministry, and I was told that as research gave new light, the Ministry's teachings might change to take account of that. The Dead Sea Scrolls, I was told, were still being examined (for example). I wasn't mentally handicapped or screwed up. I just wanted to know. And, it appeared, so did all the people who took the class with me or who subsequently passed through various classes. I don't remember any "weirdos", nor were any of the established grads, Corps or other people around, "weird". Some were a bit hard; some were a bit too "black and white", but all were confident in God, and that was a real change from the "if it's God's will" or "maybe" brigade of too many churches. If you read posts here, you'll find that a lot of other posters also "just wanted to know." The biggest handicap I had to deal with - was that it was taught by an American! Who was a bit creepy and didn't know the English language as well as he made out. But he still appeared to know more Bible than any church minister I'd encountered. And nobody who taught the Bible would deliberately lie, would they? Guess the joke was on me.

Rummie, they have been threatened (not by me) with becoming a pair of mittens! Tuxy wanted (yes, wanted) a good cuddle this morning. And boy, does she go at it with those claws, needling away. No further progress with Miss Ultra Timid (Crypto) but she watches Tuxy enjoying being fondled, so perhaps eventually she will get the idea. I think they have their own ideas about my solitary remaining fish outside in the pond. I suspect they whisper "tartare sauce" to him. However, he is a wily critter and is not fooled by them.

Thanks, Pond. Yes, I'm careful when I get injured by them. Tuxy has bitten me twice and the first time I was on antibiotics (strong ones) for 3 weeks, having let the infection go too far. Second time, I deal with it straight away and was on the antibiotic that worked, straight away. When Crypto scratched me, I washed immediately with soap and water and sprinkled the wounds with hydrogen peroxide. Everything has healed up perfectly, no signs at all left. But I hear what you say. I am mindful that they use their litter trays, leaving very smelly parcels, scratch around (perhaps) to cover that, and they don't wash their paws afterwards. If they puncture me, there's too much potential for cat poo bacteria getting into my body (yeuk). Don't think they bite or scratch a lot - they don't. Just if something really scares them. They're very gentle, really.

I am not sure if Tuxedo has made some new year resolutions, or if she has had a brain transplant, or there is an imposter in the house. Heck if she didn't want another good fondle this morning, curled up and slept in my lap, purring mighty contentedly. My poor sweater sleeve is looking bedraggled due to her needling of it. Hey, she's getting like a normal cat!

Actually, as leadership training went, we were taught to become great followers (because you can't be a great leader without fisrt being a great follower). Therefore, we were okay to accept menial roles in the dishroom or wherever, because that was a way of following (Jesus washed feet, that was a menial servant job). A few in rez elder Corps got to coordinate in-rez twigs or otherwise got to boss a few others about in work crews. But one didn't get such a position without already being appropriate doormat leadership material. At no point was there any teaching of leadership principles, vision, communicating one's vision, psychology, strategy or anything that might help become a more effective leader. Early Corps got some "counselling" training; nothing when I was in rez. I think the greatest values from my time in rez are: 1. Meeting some awesome people, both in rez and recently on staff. 2. Seeing what good leadership IS NOT. 3. An opportunity to read the Bible quietly for myself, when I wouldn't have made that amount of time anyway. I did meet some truly awesome and good-hearted people, who were great to be working with. But I think they would have been great leaders anyway, because they loved people and cared about their work crews. I also met some people I avoided as much as possible. It was easy to spot some wannabes whilst in rez.

The totally controlling mindset of leadership and the crushing of any idea that didn't originate from some sort of leadership was definitely unhealthy. Every "red flag" or shred of critical thinking was frowned upon. No praise for being able to think of a solution: just "you are leaning to your own understanding." Only giving people half the information they needed, deliberately withholding something that would make them more effective workers "so that they would learn to trust God." Requiring people to do things that went against common sense. Placing people in potentially dangerous situations without proper consideration or instruction. Biggest thing of all was the all-pervasive fear that was engendered. A play on a love for God that was perverted into a fear of not pleasing God and then a fear of God (which was really fear of TWI). Fear - what PFAL was supposed to show us how to get rid of. That, coupled with too much teaching on devil spirits and not enough about the reality of the Grace-filled life we are supposed to lead. Because we were taught by UNGRACIOUS leaders. And then, having given one's all to TWI, to get M&A'd and EVERYONE in one's (TWI-filled) world refusing to contact, speak to, have anything to do with. That policy of isolation was so very harmful to many. In fact, it's well-known that the likely consequence of severe and prolonged environmental restriction and social isolation is psychiatric illness. Long-term isolation of prisoners with no opportunity for social contact used to be practiced until it was found to cause more problems than it solved, because the prisoners became mentally deranged and thus too difficult to handle. Much worse than just being "institutionalized." In effect, by teaching people how dangerous non-TWI people were, how dangerous other Christians were, how devil-possessed all psychiatrists, psychologists, and other therapists were, TWI had enclosed its (non)members in protective isolation so that the help that was needed was never accessible. Roll up, roll up! Build your own isolation unit at TWI, folks! It's all grooming, insidious, and just as bad as a pedophile selecting the next victim. Dooj has a point, that if one could make the decision to leave, one retained that element of control over one's own life. If, however, one had been M&A'd or for some other reason not left voluntarily, Waybrain remains intact and may become even more entrenched. Please view these comments in light of later years in TWI under the reign of terror of LCM and the micro-management that happened post-fog years. For myself, I was deeply depressed - I believe mentally ill - and was unable to function properly, and rejected everyone and everything, until I discovered the Cafe and realized it wasn't ME that was wrong - it was them. It was like blinders being removed. The depression seemed to melt away, as snow in sunshine, and now I can laugh at how silly it all was. But it was mighty real at the time. There is no history of mental illness in any of my extended family on either side and neither had I had any problems before my involvement with TWI. Ergo, any illness was caused by TWI.

It has been odd with these two lately. My mum visited over Christmas. They have met her on several occasions. ( She usually stays for a few nights every month.) No way were the girlies having anything to do with her. If Mum and I sat in my study (a lounge area) with the doors closed, they would sit quietly outside. When we sat in the (other) lounge, they would keep out of sight. When Mum went to bed, straight away the girlies would fuss around me straight away, as if they had watched her go to bed and get out of the way. Now Mum has gone home, and a frequent visitor has also returned home to this city. They know this friend, who often visits me. Immediately the girlies started hanging around. And this evening when friend and I were in the study with the doors shut, the girlies hung around outside, banging on the door and Tuxy whining, till they were let in. Once the door was closed, then they banged on the door and Tuxy whined until they were let out again. So strange how they know who is about and when they leave to another part of the house. No doubt it’s sense of smell, but you’d think that that same sense of smell would allow them to understand the friendly pheromones from my cat-loving Mum.

I went away overnight to a New Year’s Eve party. I set the automatic food timer so the girlies would get two meals while I was away (less than 24 hours). When I came back, unfortunately the feeder hadn’t opened so they had had no food for about 20 hours (though a good feed just before I left). Tuxy looked definitely slimmer (the little fat pig, her!) So as to Tuxy: This evening, she has been so fussy. She has whined about wanting who knows what. Finally she came up to my chair where I am now. She whines until I stroke her head (this is her “thing”). She can become quite demanding at this. Finally tonight, I grabbed her tail and she lay down. This invites me to pick her up (if she doesn’t want to be picked up, she scrabbles at the carpet). She lay on my knee demanding fondles, head and neck rubs, all over rubs, fidgetting down and snuggling right up against my chest. Normally I need to lay one hand on her rump for her to stay but tonight there was no way she was leaving. There she was, needling my poor sweater, purring happily, squishing herself against me…just like a normal cat. We had several slow blinking sessions and these just reassured her to go at it some more. Guess she was there for an hour and a half, a record. I wanted her to leave – that’s a first! But tomorrow – her mood may be altogether different. She might be an Untouchable again. When I go away, she either refuses to leave me alone and follows me about, whining; or ignores me totally and runs off if looked at.

Things are progressing with my babies...slowly, but progressing. As to Crypto: on 8 November this happened: I managed to grab hold of Crypto and had a decent long cuddle with her. I lay on the couch with her on my chest. She was there quite a while. Didn't fight or struggle to get away. Eyes as big as saucers. Clearly terrified. When I let go, she couldn't escape fast enough. Nonetheless, she didn't avoid me the next morning and still wanted her head scratched. If I can do this often enough, I might end up with at least one fondle-able cat. ...well, that was the state of play then. Since that attempt, I have been trying to catch her again, without success. Over the Christmas holiday I nearly caught her. I surprised her lying on a dining chair, head one side of the cloth and body the other. Thought if I could seize her round the shoulders/neck, she could not make a quick getaway. Hah, do not try this at home folks! My injuries were fairly mild, two bite marks/puncture wounds, not deep, and some scratches, now healed, across the knuckles. However, she remains friendly and rubs up against chair legs as if to invite a fondle, and loves it when I fondle her neck in the morning or evening. Just stays out of arm's length. She seems so much to want to be fondled. She looks longingly but runs off if looked at. How do you overcome that level of fear? And yet she can be so "brave" at times (brave for her).

Thank goodness this madness of the weekly plan didn't set in till after I'd been kicked out. I'd never have survived. I'm a hopeless timekeeper, am frequently late for things, and love dealing with things that happen spontaneously. Which doesn't mean I can't keep to a timetable when I need to, or that I don't have a plan. Just that what I plan has flexibility to deal with the unexpected., and I don't burden myself with unnecessary deadlines (like, always being at least 10 mins early for anything; if you weren't, you were "late"). But if I'd had a "plan," in fact I'd never have followed through with the person who witnessed to me (hey, that may be a good reason for having a plan!!) because there would have been no time in the schedule. Come to think of it... Would Jesus have found time to speak to all the people he did, if he'd had a plan in 15 minute slots? The Samaritan woman at the well? Zachaeus? Healing all those sick people? What would his schedule have said? 7-8 am Go to temple for worship 8-9 am Wander around market place looking for sick people to heal 9-9.15 am Talk to man up tree. Decline dinner invitation but re-schedule for two weeks hence ... Yeah right.

Waysider... I worry about you. You seem to have all the class syllabuses, all the books, and can quote line for line what's in them. You can respond to most comments from other Spotters with an exact reference, ie, you know your way around this stuff. Surely you are not ... a secret VP worshipper? :wacko: Or are you working your way through these materials, gradually bonking each nutty idea on the head? Seriously, though, when you drag stuff out like this, it gives an opportunity to confront, discuss, and consider what truth (if any) is in the statement. Considering the ailments VPW suffered from (and cancer takes a long time), then he was "sick" therefore "dead" for a very long time before he actually breathed his last. Folks, we were learning from the living dead...a zombie.

I guess, Shellon, that it all depends on the damage that will be done if you don't tell someone the truth. Not just the damage to that person, but perhaps the damage to others as well. As ever, what has to be said should be done as positively as possible ... "speaking the truth in love" - and if one says something, then one needs to be honest in dealing with any questions it raises. Other than that: it's okay not to tell everything you know. You have a great role model. Did God tell all that he knew or proposed? No, he just told his people bit by bit, at appropriate times. And he still has secrets that are not disclosed or not fully revealed.

Heh, I can think of someone who might be / have been very interested in such psychological underpinnings of dictatorship. Another place where the psychological underpinnings are considered: From Orwell's novel Animal Farm, a satire on Communism: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Just like on a farm in Ohio........

LOL !

Ah, Waysider...ain't that right!

I'm with Raf, most of the "Christmas songs" make me want to run away ! There's a guy busking in the main shopping street in my town. He is tuneless at the best of times (usually with "No Woman, No Crime" or in his case, being homeless, Grime) but he is out there right now with horrendous renditions of two Chrissie carols. The shopkeepers should pay him to go away. Scares off legit customers. But actually, I do quite like a carol service as long as I can shut my Waybrain up and forget about the overcrowded stable with shepherds, lots of animals and rich old geezers prancing about.

Well, congratulations on such a long marriage, 27 years and still going strong. It might have been successful with some of the other guys you wanted to marry, too. Whatever, it should have been your choice, unless obviously wrong (like they knew your intended was an abuser, a wife-beater - no, wait, such a man would fit right in...) You so much did the right thing, marrying your Man. ( to those know-alls).

TLB, so that's why the Navigators got their name, huh? How to Win Friends etc was required WC reading/study, at least when I was in. I just found my copy and it is written through with scripture verses and Biblical principle, to back up each point made in the book. Whether that was something that was a required mode of study, or just something I did of my own Waybrained volition is too far lost in the mists of time to recall. Yep, learn how to sell PFAL.

Mine is on Jade, and it's translucent. Actually I like my ring, though rarely worn. I keep it because it reminds me of the commitment I made to God...not the commitment I made to TWI. Oddly, in this respect TWI seems to have dropped out of the picture. Agree with Krys, get it valued for the gold. Gold is going for good prices now. Choose someone reputable and not the shysters who shove junk mail in the mailbox.

Just amazing how many people seemed to feel they had to sneak off while the rest of their group (WoW, twig, whatever) were out of the house/locality. Anyway, Cheranne, no doubt in your heart you'd made a vow TO GOD. And you haven't broken that vow. You only broke away from a controlling group that would not allow you to love and serve God in a proper manner. Did they make a "vow" to you - for example, to support you by teachings, etc? Anything else? If so, they broke that. And if TWI made no vow, remember how GOD has made vows to us, when we serve him with our whole hearts. He never broke His vows. He didn't then, and He doesn't now.

Wow, Jeff, I only just found this thread. Reading your first post, and thinking of where you are now... oh, you have changed! What a long way you've come. And your personal life is somewhat better now too. Hugs to you and your lady. Glad to see you here at the Cafe. Here, celebrate your second anniversary - don't remember shouting you some cake when you first opened the door.

Can't tell you how much it p1$$ed me off, that people whose knowledge of the English language was poor - would set themselves up as knowledgeable in another language (I'm talking native English speakers here; same would apply if a speaker of any other language expressed himself poorly in his native tongue. To grasp all the nuances of another language takes years and yet some have set themselves up as "teachers" in Greek after not much more than PFAL. If a teacher hasn't the wit or ability to be correct in his own language, his ability in another is inevitably suspect. Who would of thought it could happen (tongue in cheek)?

Interesting topic, this. All quotes from New International Version (to make a change from KJV): So: these acts defile the individuals; and they defile the land (country); and the land (=people thereof) is punished. (in this same section, Lev 20, this is lumped together with other capital sins such as idol worship (dedication to Molech), cursing one's parents, consulting mediums, adultery, incestuous relationships, and bestiality. So that's a lot of things that are capital crimes. Bestiality. Adultery. Envy. Murder. Disobedience / disrespect to parents. Arrogance. Slander. Yet adulterers were and are allowed to live, and nowadays few in society would shun adulterers (and who knows, there could be "adulterers" in the biblical sense at the Café today – who here has been divorced and has subsequently remarried, hold your hand up!) Some adulterers enter second marriages – the ceremonies performed in churches. Murderers are not always executed; some are released after just a lengthy prison sentence. And who hasn't at some time been just a little envious, deceitful (white lie, anyone?), boastful? (In TWI it might be said that all of us were boastful, glorying in our "knowledge.") God hates all of these. They are "worthy" of death (KJV), "deserve death" (NIV). Are we to execute them? No, the NT doesn't say so. And clearly it is not a sentence that was widely carried out even in OT times. No - God is patience and long-suffering, and allows people plenty of time and scope to change. And does fear motivation actually change one's heart or mind? Or only change actions – not doing something for fear of being found out/consequences? God loved us – and gave. And as we love him, we give ... give up our old God-offending lifestyles, so that we are more like the example set before us. We don't change overnight. If one treats a homosexual differently from how one treats an adulterer, say, or even just an arrogant and boastful person, then one is a respecter of persons. Which is … a sin!! And the first person who's behavior one needs to be concerned about – is oneself! Homosexuals should be welcome in church just as perpetrators of other unacceptable behavior are. All people have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. In conclusion, it seems to me that: 1. Homosexuality is unequivocably "detestable" to God; 2. So also is a very great deal of other behavior which is quite commonly found; 3. One type of behavior is to God no worse than other types of behavior; 4. Fear motivation doesn't effect change of heart, only (perhaps) change of behavior; 5. Love motivation does effect change of heart but it doesn't all happen at once; 6. We shouldn't operate double standards and villify one group of individuals whilst pretending other individuals who offend (including ourselves) are okay; 7. Watch out that we ourselves don't get puffed up into prideful misbehavior. (As to whether homosexuality is innate or a choice isn't the topic, so I refrain from coment.)