Twinky

It was a weapon to make us turn off our caring ability. Our empathy for other people. But GOD gave us emotions. He could have devised humankind as some emotionless creature that just did whatever it was programmed to do. Instead, he gave us emotions - presumably knowing that they could sometimes get the better of us. Sure we control our emotions, or at least our behavior flowing from our emotions: we might feel like hitting someone, but generally, we rarely do so. We might feel so happy that we want to hug everyone, but that wouldn't be good either. A certain level of detachment or objectivity is also good...but not to the point of stifling emotions completely. Did not Jesus also display his emotions - joy, happiness, wellbeing, compassion - and anger, sorrow, feeling dejected, feeling rejected? Controlling men can't cope with emotions. Can't cope with anything, really. JJ, glad you've made it out of that emotionless place and sounds like you're making a "normal" sort of life for yourself, complete with as many emotions as you like.

They gave you back your money?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o :wacko: :blink:

What's not hard and legalistic? Grease. Soft as grease. The cafe. Even though we fight sometimes. Gen-2, what a terrible response. A kind and compassionate word would've been nice. A word of comfort. Romans 12:15 15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep. Sorry for your loss. From your posts, your dad was a good man who cared a lot for you and taught you a lot.

Waysider, just saw your clip. Too funny! With that extra layer of meaning for ex-Wayfers, LOL. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

You want to know God better. You want to find out something about Him. You want to make sense of what you already know, which may not be much. You wonder where the exuberance of the early Christian church (book of Acts) has gone. You don't see much that's different about church. You don't see much that's different about church-going Christians. You don't see much expectation that God is around and active. You do see a lot of formalized activities You do get conveyor-belted through a class. You do get pushed into "speaking in tongues." You do get encouraged to attend some other activity. You don't get the opportunity to ask questions or to explore what you're being given. You don't get encouraged to get involved in your community. You don't get the opportunity to meet others from different faith communities. You do get strong views about matters raised in the Bible. You don't get the mellowness of Grace relating to those same strong matters. If you don't learn the mellowness of Grace, you only learn the hardness of the Law. And then there isn't any place to go except some other place that is equally hard and legalistic.

What a very beautiful garden you have, Leafy. Where is it you live? Photos look quite like an English cottage garden, except that everything is further on - your snapdragons, for example.

Part of the problem is that churches very often don't teach much! I wandered in and out of various churches - nice people, but nothing of substance in the sermon, teachings or housegroups wishy washy ("well, I think it means...) and it's discouraging if you want to find out about the Bible, God, Jesus...but have no idea where to start. Then someone comes along, gives you a short (but fairly demanding class) that gives you more information than you've ever had before, apparently supported by chapter and verse, and you have a nice housegroup that seems supportive and caring (and many were, at that level). You read more of the Bible and the collaterals and most of it seems to make sense. And as you go along, you get more and more (self-)indoctrinated about others not knowing anything. You witness to people and although they say they go to church, they have some very strange ideas or beliefs...God sends disasters...God made me ill/gave me this disease...my dead relative is giving me information. You have also learned to view with some suspicion those who do actually know something. And so, then, where else is there to go? Because everyone else seems to be saying, I think it means...or believing bad things about God. And if you've entered the WC program, you've probably already given up a lot of other things and people, cut a lot of links. But when you get out, you realize that you really do have a place to go, and that is straight into the arms of your friends and family, who welcome you back to normality with love and generosity of heart.

No, in case they should feel like beaming in on me again. (well actually they'd never get away with it a second time) Tell you what, I never felt so guilty/under condemnation as I did at that place - the more I tried to do what was required, the more oppression I got from on high. I must really have been in the center of ... somebody's will ... but not God's I don't think. Somebody's will to "doormatize" me. Or maybe, using TWI-speak ... center of which God's will ...?

Anyway, where did this phrase come from? (So who's it plagiarized from, then?) The word "centre" isn't even in KJV. It occurs in other versions, and, where relating to people, is almost always where an accused person is standing in the centre of a ring of accusers (eg, woman in adultery). Young's Literal Translation gives this: ...the penny drops...they wanted us in a place they could accuse us... (runs for cover)

Yeah but Steve, that's in the OT and therefore not applicable to us in the Grace Administration, doncha know. Quite a lot of good stuff in Ecclesiastes...a book that TWI didn't venture into much except as yet another stick to beat us up. There's some stuff about "evil" in there and also about "spirit" all dutifully marked up. And this: 10:20 "Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber; for a bird of the air shall carry the voice and that which hath wings shall tell the matter." My marginal notes read: King=leader Control your thinking Devil sps pick up on things in the senses realm In other words, don't you dare think badly of any of us top leadership, no matter what you may think or see, neither give heed to what others may say, because it's all devil spirits trying to lead you astray and we will find you out. Also 8:1-5 about obeying kings, sorry, leaders. Never mind encouragement like: live life one day at a time, and enjoy that day, which is so much the theme of Ecclesiates.

Belle sent me this stuff when I first arrived at the Cafe. It was really helpful. Maybe Paw could put up some new links, if you emailed the documents to him, Belle?

I'd suspect that such a policy would highlight two things: 1. People who were reading other non-Way research materials. 2. People who were still able to think a little for themselves. Both are quite dangerous to the status quo and so in submitting "new" material to TWI you might as well be signing a gag order and upon repeat offencees, your own M&A order. (who's a Cynic? Surely not me!)

Tzaia, at least you have certainty now. You're a grease spot. Not so much in the toilet as down the sink waste disposal unit. ...What a load of rubbish...

:blink: :wacko:

Nice post, OldSkool. Shift, many of us here had views like those you now hold. We have learned a softer, gentler, form of Christianity OUTSIDE the Way. There are some fine people in churches. They may not know much (in that they may not be able to quote "chapter and verse" but they do do their best with what they know. There's a gentleness and a consideration for different views. They may agree, or they may not. There is no "punishment" for understanding something different. It is easier to get on with others if one takes the view that we are all right on some things, and all wrong on some things. The individual, group or organization that takes the view that it's the only one that's got it right, will quickly run into conflict with the organization next door that holds that same view. If one looks closely, not critically, one may even find that there is something to be learned from some other organization...in heart, in action, in care for others. If you, Shift, are fully persuaded that you, and the organization you are with, are absolutely completely completely completely right in what you believe...in everything the organization teaches...that would be very worrying (that's pride). If you are not so fully persuaded, don't you think you owe it to yourself (if not to the Lord Jesus) to have sufficient respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ, to see if ther is anything you can learn from them? (that's meekness - esteeming others more highly than yourself). I said before that I think you have a sincere heart to help. Now : be enlarged, so that you can help more. You have had some very difficult things to overcome in your life, and perhaps here TWI helped you. But TWI is not the only helper you have had, unless you asked every single person who's ever helped you what their Christian beliefs are. You may find that you have encountered the love of God from a number of people on your journey through life. How much kindness and patience did they show you, in spite of all your off-the-Word behavior? Show that to others ... no matter where they are now. The love of God draws us closer to Him. Reels us in slowly, like playing a fish. It doesn't force us or beat us into submission.

Please tell me you are exaggerating, mstar (rolls eyes). Tzaia, have you forgotten, we are going to be in the air all the time, not in "paradise" at all, which is where OT believers get to hang out but we of the grace admin get to fly around in the sky ... or some such. Anyway I am happy in Paradise Regained, which is life outside "the walls of Zion." It's not without problems, but it is pretty good anywhere TWI is not.

I am not sure if Shiftthis is referring only to ex Way believers; I think he has expanded his comments to include all people he has witnessed to. Originally the bit in square brackets referred to homosexuals (because that's the question I asked him) but later I asked him about other types of "off the Word" behavior. Surely this type of response should be even across all kinds of off-the-Word behavior (for want of a better expression) People, especially newbies, don't necessarily show up "wanting deliverance." They might just be aware that they need something different in their lives, but want to carry on with current sexual behavior, drink, drugs, etc. What if an unmarried (hetero) couple - ex Wayfers or otherwise - turns up, happy, living together but want to get to know God ... but that's fornication (premarital sex) [not sure what the Way's view on that is nowadays, once they said it was okay, but I think that's change - let's not get too distracted] and therefore prohibited according to OT - but they don't want to stop living together. Would they be turned away and not allowed in the fellowship because they "didn't want deliverance" from the sin of fornication? Would Shiftthis turn away people perceived to be prideful, mean-mouthed, foul-mouthed? Oh gosh. I'm so glad I've been delivered...from harsh and judgmental "tell 'em twice and then forget 'em" thinking.

No abuse, please; and Shiftthis hasn't responded in a while. Perhaps it's been "suggested" to him that he discontinue the conversation. So far all I conclude is that homosexuals are still not welcome at The Way. So not much "softer and gentler." At a guess all those of us who were M&A'd and who have joined other churches would still not be welcome, either, unless we conformed to current TWI doctrine, whatever it is.

If Paw's trying to say something, he's not making himself very clear.

She was only following the precedent set by Chris Geer when he blamed the WC for VPW's death.

Quiet down now. Y'all seem to have frightened Shiftthis away. Or has he really got no answers?

How long does it take to change? There was a girl who came to a twig I used to go to. This girl was very quiet, none too bright, had been going for TWO YEARS and once the twig coordinator murmured: "I don't know why XXX keeps coming, nothing seems to go in." XXX was a nice girl, pleasant, faithful, had taken PFAL, but so limp and unassertive that you might wonder if she was still alive. Another period of time (a couple of years or so?) passed. Then suddenly this girl blossomed, seemed utterly changed. Full of life and energy. Overt enthusiasm for God. And then she met another believer, married, and bore children. Everyone was amazed at the change. But it took a long long time to happen. What if she had been a homosexual looking for a safe place to reassess her life? She'd long since have been run off, never got the opportunity to see patient unconditional love. Never seen that goodness of God that leads to change. (Actually she would have been "run off" under late-LCM as "dead wood" or "unproductive evil".)

Fellow Cafe patrons, it would be better if this were not personal, ie, that could be taken as a personal attack on Shiftthis. I for one would love to find that there genuinely was a new attitude at TWI. There are (or were) some great people there. And there were some ... (words fail me). I asked a simple question as a sort of litmus test because of how vilely one particular group of people was treated: >> How would homosexuals now be treated at the Way? I got an answer that was less than encouraging, so I asked further questions, to ascertain this new attitude: >> What about other groups of people who commit lesser sins (in the eyes of TWI). Is the same treatment meted out to them? And it seems that is a question too hard. The obviousness that all are sinners and all are deserving of similar treatment (Rom 1:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") is still not obvious to TWI. There are apparently still unacceptable sins and there are other acceptable sins. (That "all" must be an "all with distinction" or something, not an "all without exception.") Shiftthis, I'm not going to contact TWI. They marked and avoided me...for doing what the Word said. I was kind to people and treated non-believers and newbies like human beings.

Yes. Quite a lot of people. Specific focus on one or two at the moment; it takes TIME to really help someone change so drastically. Who have I cared about? YOU HAVE NO IDEA but actually, genuine care and help - lemme see - several dozen. A hundred, maybe? More? In a very wide variety of ways. Answer these questions please.

I'd just like to add (for avoidance of doubt) that I am not attacking you, Shiftthis; you appear to have a genuine desire to help people. I'm just trying to investigate any substantive changes of attitude in The Way.