Twinky

Anyway, where did this phrase come from? (So who's it plagiarized from, then?) The word "centre" isn't even in KJV. It occurs in other versions, and, where relating to people, is almost always where an accused person is standing in the centre of a ring of accusers (eg, woman in adultery). Young's Literal Translation gives this: ...the penny drops...they wanted us in a place they could accuse us... (runs for cover)

Yeah but Steve, that's in the OT and therefore not applicable to us in the Grace Administration, doncha know. Quite a lot of good stuff in Ecclesiastes...a book that TWI didn't venture into much except as yet another stick to beat us up. There's some stuff about "evil" in there and also about "spirit" all dutifully marked up. And this: 10:20 "Curse not the king, no not in thy thought; and curse not the rich in thy bedchamber; for a bird of the air shall carry the voice and that which hath wings shall tell the matter." My marginal notes read: King=leader Control your thinking Devil sps pick up on things in the senses realm In other words, don't you dare think badly of any of us top leadership, no matter what you may think or see, neither give heed to what others may say, because it's all devil spirits trying to lead you astray and we will find you out. Also 8:1-5 about obeying kings, sorry, leaders. Never mind encouragement like: live life one day at a time, and enjoy that day, which is so much the theme of Ecclesiates.

Belle sent me this stuff when I first arrived at the Cafe. It was really helpful. Maybe Paw could put up some new links, if you emailed the documents to him, Belle?

I'd suspect that such a policy would highlight two things: 1. People who were reading other non-Way research materials. 2. People who were still able to think a little for themselves. Both are quite dangerous to the status quo and so in submitting "new" material to TWI you might as well be signing a gag order and upon repeat offencees, your own M&A order. (who's a Cynic? Surely not me!)

Tzaia, at least you have certainty now. You're a grease spot. Not so much in the toilet as down the sink waste disposal unit. ...What a load of rubbish...

:blink: :wacko:

Nice post, OldSkool. Shift, many of us here had views like those you now hold. We have learned a softer, gentler, form of Christianity OUTSIDE the Way. There are some fine people in churches. They may not know much (in that they may not be able to quote "chapter and verse" but they do do their best with what they know. There's a gentleness and a consideration for different views. They may agree, or they may not. There is no "punishment" for understanding something different. It is easier to get on with others if one takes the view that we are all right on some things, and all wrong on some things. The individual, group or organization that takes the view that it's the only one that's got it right, will quickly run into conflict with the organization next door that holds that same view. If one looks closely, not critically, one may even find that there is something to be learned from some other organization...in heart, in action, in care for others. If you, Shift, are fully persuaded that you, and the organization you are with, are absolutely completely completely completely right in what you believe...in everything the organization teaches...that would be very worrying (that's pride). If you are not so fully persuaded, don't you think you owe it to yourself (if not to the Lord Jesus) to have sufficient respect for your brothers and sisters in Christ, to see if ther is anything you can learn from them? (that's meekness - esteeming others more highly than yourself). I said before that I think you have a sincere heart to help. Now : be enlarged, so that you can help more. You have had some very difficult things to overcome in your life, and perhaps here TWI helped you. But TWI is not the only helper you have had, unless you asked every single person who's ever helped you what their Christian beliefs are. You may find that you have encountered the love of God from a number of people on your journey through life. How much kindness and patience did they show you, in spite of all your off-the-Word behavior? Show that to others ... no matter where they are now. The love of God draws us closer to Him. Reels us in slowly, like playing a fish. It doesn't force us or beat us into submission.

Please tell me you are exaggerating, mstar (rolls eyes). Tzaia, have you forgotten, we are going to be in the air all the time, not in "paradise" at all, which is where OT believers get to hang out but we of the grace admin get to fly around in the sky ... or some such. Anyway I am happy in Paradise Regained, which is life outside "the walls of Zion." It's not without problems, but it is pretty good anywhere TWI is not.

I am not sure if Shiftthis is referring only to ex Way believers; I think he has expanded his comments to include all people he has witnessed to. Originally the bit in square brackets referred to homosexuals (because that's the question I asked him) but later I asked him about other types of "off the Word" behavior. Surely this type of response should be even across all kinds of off-the-Word behavior (for want of a better expression) People, especially newbies, don't necessarily show up "wanting deliverance." They might just be aware that they need something different in their lives, but want to carry on with current sexual behavior, drink, drugs, etc. What if an unmarried (hetero) couple - ex Wayfers or otherwise - turns up, happy, living together but want to get to know God ... but that's fornication (premarital sex) [not sure what the Way's view on that is nowadays, once they said it was okay, but I think that's change - let's not get too distracted] and therefore prohibited according to OT - but they don't want to stop living together. Would they be turned away and not allowed in the fellowship because they "didn't want deliverance" from the sin of fornication? Would Shiftthis turn away people perceived to be prideful, mean-mouthed, foul-mouthed? Oh gosh. I'm so glad I've been delivered...from harsh and judgmental "tell 'em twice and then forget 'em" thinking.

No abuse, please; and Shiftthis hasn't responded in a while. Perhaps it's been "suggested" to him that he discontinue the conversation. So far all I conclude is that homosexuals are still not welcome at The Way. So not much "softer and gentler." At a guess all those of us who were M&A'd and who have joined other churches would still not be welcome, either, unless we conformed to current TWI doctrine, whatever it is.

If Paw's trying to say something, he's not making himself very clear.

She was only following the precedent set by Chris Geer when he blamed the WC for VPW's death.

Quiet down now. Y'all seem to have frightened Shiftthis away. Or has he really got no answers?

How long does it take to change? There was a girl who came to a twig I used to go to. This girl was very quiet, none too bright, had been going for TWO YEARS and once the twig coordinator murmured: "I don't know why XXX keeps coming, nothing seems to go in." XXX was a nice girl, pleasant, faithful, had taken PFAL, but so limp and unassertive that you might wonder if she was still alive. Another period of time (a couple of years or so?) passed. Then suddenly this girl blossomed, seemed utterly changed. Full of life and energy. Overt enthusiasm for God. And then she met another believer, married, and bore children. Everyone was amazed at the change. But it took a long long time to happen. What if she had been a homosexual looking for a safe place to reassess her life? She'd long since have been run off, never got the opportunity to see patient unconditional love. Never seen that goodness of God that leads to change. (Actually she would have been "run off" under late-LCM as "dead wood" or "unproductive evil".)

Fellow Cafe patrons, it would be better if this were not personal, ie, that could be taken as a personal attack on Shiftthis. I for one would love to find that there genuinely was a new attitude at TWI. There are (or were) some great people there. And there were some ... (words fail me). I asked a simple question as a sort of litmus test because of how vilely one particular group of people was treated: >> How would homosexuals now be treated at the Way? I got an answer that was less than encouraging, so I asked further questions, to ascertain this new attitude: >> What about other groups of people who commit lesser sins (in the eyes of TWI). Is the same treatment meted out to them? And it seems that is a question too hard. The obviousness that all are sinners and all are deserving of similar treatment (Rom 1:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") is still not obvious to TWI. There are apparently still unacceptable sins and there are other acceptable sins. (That "all" must be an "all with distinction" or something, not an "all without exception.") Shiftthis, I'm not going to contact TWI. They marked and avoided me...for doing what the Word said. I was kind to people and treated non-believers and newbies like human beings.

Yes. Quite a lot of people. Specific focus on one or two at the moment; it takes TIME to really help someone change so drastically. Who have I cared about? YOU HAVE NO IDEA but actually, genuine care and help - lemme see - several dozen. A hundred, maybe? More? In a very wide variety of ways. Answer these questions please.

I'd just like to add (for avoidance of doubt) that I am not attacking you, Shiftthis; you appear to have a genuine desire to help people. I'm just trying to investigate any substantive changes of attitude in The Way.

No Shiftthis, you haven't. What I asked was this: You have set yourself up as a mouthpiece for The Way. But you comment on what your own approach would be. Should it be taken, then, that your approach is exactly what The Way's attitude would be? You say: You would therefore refuse to have anything to do with them; refuse to fellowship with them; refuse to help them. Refuse to show them the love of God. The Way's attitude to homosexuals (under LCM's reign of terror) was that they were the lowest of the low, dregs of society, basically words weren't enough to describe their despicable behavior. Who does God love? Does he not pour out his goodness on all? Is not God's love unconditional? Who did Jesus hang around with? Drunkards, prostitutes, the lowest of the low, dregs of society, those nobody else wanted to be around. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of those were homosexual, even though there was an enormous taboo against that in Jewish society. (The very fact that it is mentioned at all means that it was present in that society!) No, Jesus showed love, grace, compassion. He wasn't judgmental, condemnatory; he showed he cared. Some people listened, changed their ways; others didn't. Change doesn't happen from simply reading words in a book - maybe only reading those words once or twice, even if it does say Bible on the cover; it takes time to sink in and for the desire to change one's behavior (whatever that behavior is) to something more Godly. It takes a proper model. Once full of grace and kindness. Another question for you: What about what The Way might consider lesser sins? Does the Way now kick out adulterers? Child molesters? What about those men who do not love their wives as themselves, but abuse them, hit them, emotionally injure them? What about "invisible" sins? Those who are prideful? Those who lie? Those who think ill of their brothers in Christ? Those who backbite and speak evil of fellow Christians? And those who condone these things, even if they (say they) haven't done them themselves? Because, Shiftthis, all those things are ALSO in the Word, and there are most definitely people still fellowshipping with The Way who do (some of) those things. There may even be some who have done all of these things. Where does the kicking out start? And finish? How on earth would you "help them," without first showing that you cared enough to help them? Otherwise, it's just finger-wagging from a position of superiority. How on earth does The Way "help" anyone, when it doesn't show it cares?

Oh hello Dooj, you're back from being banned then? Welcome back to the Cafe.

I knew this would draw a lot of replies quickly, but I would really like to hear from Shiftthis. Shiftthis, how can you answer these people? And can you please answer the question I posed in the first post? (Everyone else, give him a chance to reply, please)

Shiftthis posted a number of quotes recently. These are some extracts (edited a little to correct some spelling bloopers): Shiftthis is at pains to emphasise how much TWI has changed since Martindale was kicked out. Others describe it as being "softer and kinder." No doubt there has been change - some perhaps for the better. I just have one question, specifically for Shiftthis: what is the Way's attitude towards homosexuals? If a homosexual man (or woman) turned up looking very "gay", would that person be welcomed, honestly and openly, at a Sunday Night Service? Or (even if permitted to stay) would they remain feeling welcome, or would they feel lectured at, and condemned for their sexuality? It is widely understood at the Cafe that Rosalie and Donna have had/are in a relationship and there have been allegations that Rosalie had a lesbian couple living (secretly) in her household. Those things have always been kept away from the wider public knowledge, even from most people living at HQ. And certainly at the time, that behavior was going on even though it didn't fit with Martindale's rages against it. But now? If, let's say, two homosexual ex-Wayfers (perhaps some of those you say were "wrongly thown outa the ministry by others who aint here no more" turned up hand-in-hand for SNS, what would be the reaction?

Do these last few posts need to be a separate thread?

Interesting it that seems more people are incensed about that email than Shellon herself is. As far as TWI is concerned, she sees through their manipulative and mean-spirited approach and has of necessity grown a thick hide to withstand it. Perhaps the rest of us haven't had to put up with quite that level of abuse in that particular area and that's why we're so angry about the email. It's double-edged abuse. A form of self-abuse. The fact is that the writer probably sincerely meant what she said. Sincere, but diametrically opposed to Godliness.

"Punishment assignments" didn't start after graduation; they were an integral part of the in reez WC training. You need to learn humility. Go directly to the Dishroom. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. You cannot use your Community Chest "Get out of Jail Dishroom Free" card. (If you are female and have a chest, you can use it for other benefits.)

Shell, your story is brave and inspirational. It would be sad if you feel unable to share it because I'm sure what you have said has helped others to realize "it's not just them" and what has happened to them is part of a pattern. Stories like yours, and those of other women here at the Cafe, have been immensely healing to me in understanding what was done to me. But what you share should never be at the expense of your loved ones. Those real live flesh and blood women are more important than your cyber-friends. I know you'll do whatever is right to protect them. (((((Shell)))))