Twinky

The first link is very much TWI teaching on "stayed mind." Was it in PFAL? "Mind, come back here!" whenever your mind wandered from what you were supposed to be concentrating on. Accompanied by a hand gesture summoning the mind back and pointing firmly at one's feet. That probably got dropped in the WAP class (which was never inflicted on me) and later foundational-type classes. Stayed mind used to be a regular feature of SNS - just in case people decided to look beyond the walls of Zion. EW Kenyon was also talked about, a little, when I was first in. He may have been mentioned in PFAL in an attempt to give credibility to VPW. Maybe in some later classes. (Dunno, but I never heard of him before getting involved with TWI.) Some, many, aspects of this make it into PFAL but possibly not via Kenyon so much as via the classes that VPW ripped off so as to form PFAL. This all ties in very much with the "law of believing," upon which topic much, very much, has been written in these forums. There is also a link on the front page to an article by John Juedes, who has done a lot to debunk some TWI doctrines. John Juedes article

Pretty much everyone is welcome here - whether or not they have a TWI affiliation, and regardless of the type of affiliation - but those who abuse, bully or vilify other posters are not welcome and might be put on moderation. And that's regardless of how long they have been posters here. Yu might ask yourself: Do I want to learn from the people here? Or do I expect them all to learn from me? Because we've mostly all had a kicking and are finding peace with God as He works in our hearts. Not as other people "command" us to allow Him to work in our hearts.

What do you want to do?

I don't know that they all start out as scams, Gen-2. Some might genuinely start out well-meaning. And then careful and appropriate guidance becomes more and more control of people's lives, with the "big stick" of not being pleasing to God. (Is there a "latent bully" in all of us?) And these books of "special knowledge" or "secrets of life" become a way of extending the bullying, the control. Especially where sold from some private location (our church/HQ/private publishing company). Don't get me wrong, I'm not against book authors, people who genuinely do have some knowledge, writing about their understanding. Nor am I against them selling their books. But who or what is the focus? How exclusive is the target market? Who ends up getting empowered - the reader, who learns how to live better/gains more understanding of the topic? Or the author, who gains/cements an element of control? And who gets the money? And what becomes of it? I'm thinking of people like Yancey, Swindoll - even Johnson & VanVonderen, who wrote The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, that has been so helpful to people here at the Cafe. These people - especially the last-named pair - seem the antithesis of cult leaders. The instruction in 1 Timothy 3 (about selection of church overseers) springs to mind. :4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; :5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) How do the wannabe's kids present? >Are they quiet, because cowed into submission? >Or are they quiet, because they are polite and respectfully brought up? >Are the wannabe's kids able to express an opinion? >Or are they required to be seen and not heard? >Are the kids treated as individuals, with their own personalities? >Or are they treated like clones, one-size-fits-all? >Are the kids' abilities acknowledged and encouraged? >Or are they forced to give up things they enjoy and do things they dislike? ...Cos that's how the wannabe leader will treat his following. That's how his "special knowledge" really plays out.

Sad, Waysider, but it could have been worse. You could've ended up in Way Productions, even starring in The Soup...

The least common denominator? Gullibility.

This might sound a bit familiar: but "what's the heart behind it?" If genuinely to help and genuinely to instruct and explore the Bible and its application, does that make it a splinter? Especially if, as one explores, one allows one's mind to change? And what is the attitude towards others of the wider Christian body? If it's to show off one's own views/knowledge and appear more superior to some people, that's different, isn't it? And what about ... money? Is it demanded - offered - accepted? What is any money used for? Others above have commented on the way the group treats people. So important! Does it compel, or does it guide and exhort? Is there a sense of guilt in doing or not doing something? Or is genuine choice acceptable? Are participants free to leave if they want? Or are their activities subtly or not so subtly controlled (ie, beyond the bounds of reasonable)? There were some genuinely good people in TWI, often trained as Corps, but without the meanness some here have endured. If those people start fellowships in their homes, are those groups "splinters" or are they just - church in the home?

I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular. I'm just fed up with the number of people claiming "special" knowledge that they want to sell to you. Which is such a contrast between (if you are Christian) what Jesus taught. But "everyone hath a psalm" and they want you to pay them to sing it to you. Instead of doing it for the joy of doing it. What's with all this ego that makes that person's knowledge so very special? It's not passion to share a better way that motivates them. It's passion for money. Passion for accolades. Passion for - themselves. Let's write a book. Chronicles of Grease Spot Cafe, maybe?

Hey your poster even has "Lions" in the top left corner. For the throwing to of Christians, no doubt.

Yeah, Sunesis, I think he argues so very much because he is so very afraid to really look. Look in his own heart. Think. Open his eyes. Bet he could throw great tantrums when he was two years old. I've just been sitting back and watching in amusement while he rolls on the carpet screaming.

So here are all these wannabes with "ministries" and they all have special knowledge of God and they're all willing to impart it to you – for a price. For those who still profess Christianity: Could you just remind me again – how many books was it that Jesus wrote? And sold, to fund his lifestyle? For post-Pentecost followers of Paul: There were plenty of epistles that he wrote to all the young churches. How much d'you suppose he charged per page of the letters known as 1 and 2 Corinthians? And what d'you suppose he charged Timothy, for training and ordaining him? For post-Pentecost followers of the more Jewish apostles? Remind me again – what did likely lads like James, Jude and Peter charge for copies of their books/epistles? For OT followers: How much did Moses charge for training the leaders, in Ex 18:25? And there must have been instruction manuals, books, scrolls, what-have-you, to ensure that they did it correctly, yes? Too difficult to write it all down in the desert? Okay, how about Ezra's teachings in Neh 8? It's quite clear that there were written documents then, including lots of written documentation about kings and laws and so forth; so here in the book of Nehemiah, where the instruction of lots of people is described – surely all those new "converts" must have required special instruction books? And special training for the newly-appointed leaders? That Jesus! He had such stupid ideas! Just how was he planning to fund his stable of racing donkeys? Matthew 10 (King James Version) 1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out , and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; … 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth , and commanded them, saying , Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. … 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. I don't read anywhere in this or associated records: Sell 'em the book Here's secret knowledge that you can buy (and on-sell). Make 'em come to church/synagogue/my pet place of worship (in fact, quite the opposite. There's a warning to beware of those in the synagogues (verse 17)). Tell 'em to check out my work/long period of study We have a class that, for a fee, will help you understand better. Don't tell if they won't buy I do read, in relation to a similar outreach: Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given , he offered them money, 19 Saying , Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. ("Clear off, and take your money with you!") Wow! Imagine that from one of these wannabes with a ministry!! What kind of a cult would that be? How on earth could they fund a lavish or even comfortable lifestyle, when money-for-knowledge is rejected?

Though this is turning into an hilarious thread. Rare to see someone ... quite like Composer. Composer: here is something for you: Romans 12:20 KJV Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink [read your OT; they meant water] Or perhaps you'd prefer something else? 1 Timothy 5:23 KJV Drink no longer water , but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities. (sorry, the photo credits come out oddly)

Strikes me Abigail might be right - research your mark, then make a move. James Trimm sure is starting a lot of topics here, more than any other new poster. But they are nearly all really long posts, excerpts from his other printed matter. Does not properly address points made; does not dialog with other posters. Others have complained that his posts are so long that interest is lost before the point (if there is one) is reached. His "why I left the cult" is so very reminiscent of "why I left the church in Van Wert" and like tales. Not really about why he left, but about self-aggrandisement. Self-glorification. Uh...didn't we all already sit through long and boring chunks of "theology" getting pushed at us with no opportunity to question, or to dialog with the presenter or those in the presenter's stead? Something that looked good until you started to think more about the inconsistencies, the things that weren't explained satisfactorily? Didn't we get beaten into submission once already? Oh lordy me...I greeted a wannabe MoG, not met him before, who buttonholed me and gobbled on and on at me for 25 or 30 minutes without a single acknowledgment of me, or my greeting, or a very minor point I'd made about an error in grammar that he had repeated from PFAL. I let him go on so long just to see if he would ever pause for breath. After that 25 or 30 minutes it was obvious he was never going to respond to me...so I got up and walked away, probably quite rudely, but how rude is it to gobble on and on like that? He is now "ordained" by CFFM and has his own "ministry." (Twinky runs away holding head in hands.) And is James doing anything different? There's a name for someone who just preaches at you and doesn't respond. Or that new person you just met at a party, who buttonholes you in a corner and you can't get away from. Or that guy in the pub who just monopolizes conversation, never quite sees you. Lemme see...bore. Or even, boor. Sorry, James, if I have misinterpreted your actions.

(and Galen, too! )

Good one, chockfull.

There is also so very much in "nature" that we don't fully understand, even if we come up with some sort of explanation. And I think there are influences (call 'em spirit if you like) that affect the wider world around us. But not everything is "spirit" influenced. TWI taught us to look for "devil spirits" everywhere and over-spiritualize everything. We know the "theory" of what causes a volcano to erupt. But can we predict it? Or is it an "attack of the adversary" if it happens to take place when (say) a TWI class is about to take place? The theory of plate techtonics (say) is surprisingly recent. Maybe in a couple of hundred years time, human beings will laugh at that as much as we might laugh now at ideas of "humors" in the body. "Common sense"? Well, who invented common sense? God gave a few basic rules to help us get along. Even people with no religion have "common sense." For an organization that prided itself on its ability with personal relationships - TWI was worse than an erupting volcano. The simmering hatred of the outside world manifested itself in TWI in the dramatic explosions from LCM and others. The concept of "spiritual anger" was everywhere. But the Lord's compassion, forgiveness, kindness, and genuine concern was nowhere to be seen. TWI focused on Jesus's confrontation of Pharisees (never even seeing themselves as Pharisees) and never on Jesus's compassion for people. Forgiveness is such a big thing, and one which many of us here have had to (re)learn. There are heaps of threads on the topic. I'm thankful, as are you, OldSkool, for the loving kindness and forgiveness of friends and family and indeed the general public, as damaged relationships are worked through and repaired. It's grace beyond what could be expected from those we have injured. God gave us brains to think things out. And that involves a realistic assessment of what is going on.

Well done, Gen-2. It's very satisfying growing your own food. You know what goes into it (and what [chemicals] doesn't) and the taste is generally so much better than store-bought food. Well done with the tomatoes. I've never had anything worthwhile of any of my tomatoes.

Finally got some plants in the garden. The path project has occupied all my time and unfortunately a lot of the garden space. Now the surplus soil is residing in two huge 1/2 ton bags near the house, and the soil underneath is now useable. And I can get to the other side of the garden to plant, too. So I fetched a load of well-rotted hoss muck and dug my bean trench, and my beans (grown from seed) went in last night. It has rained overnight (first time for a couple of months) so the soil is going to be nicely moistened and get them off to a good start. I found a couple of volunteer potato plants in the area where the beans should be so I've left them. Let them do their thing, why not, they must be the best and pretty vigorous. Had some nice volunteer spuds last year. Very tasty. Getting a bit late in the season for planting a lot of things (like onions) but at least I should be able to get some quick-growing salad crops and then later put in some things that will mature over winter (brassicas and such like). The path project is not finished, and will not be finished for at least a month (maybe longer, depending on Mr Muscle's work commitments; a big work project is likely to be coming up so it might mean 3 months).

Never saw this thread before, but I have read it all. What a tragic waste of talent and ability. Desperate that our God-given abilities and talents were beaten out of us, or squashed to within a thread of themselves. I'm just thinking now - in study hall, perhaps more good would have been done if instead of endless rehashing of FNC, SNS, CN and other tapes - or cancelling and sending us off to chop wood - if they'd given us a box of paints and told us to paint and draw like little kids in school (I say that because some people would say they have no artistic ability). Or given us proper singing lessons (not how to wave the arms around supposedly leading a song). Or if, for one's "research paper" those who were artists couldn't have produced a painting illustrating something of value to them, that they'd learned whilst in rez. Think of all the latent talent that could have been unearthed. Glad those of you who have artistic abilities are finding your metier again.

No doubt this is a fascinating discussion. Could somebody please synthesise the arguments or post a synopsis or give bite-sized chunks? I'm all for rooting out Weirwille rubbish and misdirection, but I need something accessible that is of interest, before my eyes glaze over with excess of words. It's excess of words that got us all into trouble in the first place.

Hey, can you post the one about the Dead Sea Scrolls, please?

Women were of pretty little significance. And the more ability the woman has/had, the less significance she had. Corps women especially. Their main purpose was to service, sorry serve, TWI men. Not to be competent in their own right. (Unless perhaps the woman's name is Rosalie.) (list as amended)

Cap'n Drive-By has been a member for less than a year. It takes some time to disentangle. Perhaps just posting here is the "first step" to his eventual escape. It took some of us a long time to begin to shake off Waybrain. And that's when for whatever reason we're already out. For an innie, perhaps it's harder. Please don't beat on him so hard that he doesn't want to come back to the Cafe ... so hard that in fact belonging to TWI is a nicer place to be . Cos although we know it ain't - but he doesn't know that yet.

Romans 10:4 KJV For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth These are some of the laws: Exodus 24:12 KJV And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written ; that thou mayest teach them. This takes place right after the giving of the Ten Commandments and several chapters of other commandments in Ex 20-23 – called "the book of the covenant." At this time the making of burnt offerings, peace offerings, etc was already well established (Ex 24:5ff and records in Genesis). The OT believers had rituals for washing, for offering animal sacrifices as burnt offerings, sin offerings, peace offerings, etc, and these became enforced as "laws." These rituals and the "heart behind them" (sorry for the phrase) made those believers righteous. Pharisees added a whole new lot of other "external" laws (which they strictly enforced) to make people "righteous" and look good, without in any way serving God or his people. But remember: Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham is around from Genesis 12. Romans spends a lot of time going into Abraham's righteousness and believing, which predates the exodus and the giving of the law by at least that 430 years. Adam & Eve obviously didn't have "the law" – again, a lot of references in Romans about this. Romans 4:3 KJV For what saith the scripture ? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6 KJV Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. James 2:23 KJV And the scripture was fulfilled which saith , Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. God doesn't want us going through rituals (Heb 10:8). He just wants us to believe Him. What has always really annoyed me (right from PFAL) is the way Wayfers always said, "Jesus Christ is the end of the law" therefore the Ten Commandments don't apply to us. (If you said, "the text says, end of the law for righteousness," you'd get the look that said, "You've added something to the Word!") Basically they tore up the "rule book." If they went further, they might add that our sonship rights said that we are righteous now because of what JC did. They forgot that the 10 Cs are rules for living rightly (righteously) along and for having correct personal relationships - and so all their personal relationships went to hell in a handbasket. They forgot what the essentials of "right living" might actually mean. It makes sense to me that we aren't bound by "laws for righteousness" but it doesn't mean that we aren't bound by immutable laws of God as to how to live properly. Like this synthesis: Luke 10:27 And he [Jesus] answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Do that, and all the rest follows.

Uh, Waysider, Santa Claus was behind the curtain? Makin' out with the Wizard?