Twinky

You do realize that it's "two men" and "two women" - added words being in italics - ie, two persons (sex unspecified). Men worked in the fields; women did the grinding of corn. It's just what they did. Would you make the same "marriage" argument for two males fixing a car together, or two females doing the weekly shop at the store together? Sorry, you flunked this one.

Folks - The following speaker came to the church I go to, made a presentation about living a risky life - having trust in the Lord. His presentation then featured bungy jumping - you know you're safe, but there's a moment just before you jump that you're fearful. He is making other presentations to local churches, raising awareness and fundraising. He puts his money where his mouth is. He has a big mission in Burundi, a country that's little heard about, doing Christian outreach, in partnership with others. The poverty is extreme. The people are very hard hit. Their faith in Christianity is tremendous and they will share whatever little thing they have. One Burundian minister borrowed a pair of shoes off Simon because he thought it wasn't fitting that he should preach whilst so poorly attired (Simon of course gave him the shoes!). Here's his details: Simon Guillebaud, founder of Great Lakes Outreach, Burundi (http://www.greatlakesoutreach.org/) Simon is author of: For what it's worth: A call to no-holds-barred discipleship, Dangerously Alive: An African Adventure of Faith under Fire Simon is likely to be challenging in the extreme: (WARNING: Link contains photographs which will disturb) More than Conquerors PowerPoint presentation. Simon can be found on facebook as: "Simon Guillebaud" If you click on the first link, you will be able to see the last annual report detailing where everything has come from and is going to. (There are slide bars on some pages with more info.) If you click the PowerPoint presentation (but not if you are squeamish or depressed or have just eaten), you will see what some of the issues are that the people he works with have to deal with. If it doesn't shake your complacency, what became of your conscience? And yet - people come to and cling to faith in those circumstances. The reason I'm posting this is because this is seriously committed Christian outreach, mission field, working with those in deep need. Perhaps you already know people involved in like missions. I really wanted to post this so that you could see something of (a) what mission outreach is (b) how open the organisation is about its funding Compare and contrast with other organisations that you know are sitting on a pile of money. TWI and perhaps other organisations might well call this "a bag with holes" and bottomless need (ie, don't therefore bother to do anything). Others...do things. I'm not calling Simon the "Mother Theresa" of Burundi. He's a highly educated young man who sees a need and acts. He is the one who really could have been president of a Fortune 500 company; he has the ability and the contacts. But he chooses this life. Discuss.

Okay, Thomas, let's see. I thought Lamsa's books were good little books to begin with, but wondered at his ability to be completely sure about what was what then. Had no idea he wrote so many. Suppose any of us decided to write about our own culture even say 500 years ago? It's not innate. We'd have to do shedloads of research. Passed-down folk histories don't do it. Customs do change. (To some extent, even Wierwille acknowledged this by saying that every generation has to make the Bible its own.) We make the culture our own and the customs that go with it differ, generation to generation. Artefacts can be left, but good archaeologists from any culture can interpret them to the best of knowledge then known. Archaeologists' opinions, however, can vary widely. How much harder, then, to interpret something that leaves no physical trace, and very little trace in culture today? Lamsa has a different viewpoint because he has a different background. It's always worth considering other people's viewpoints. But it doesn't make them righter or wronger than our own viewpoint. To a large extent - all this is "head knowledge" - but what does it really do for "heart knowledge"? Does it help to be told that "burning coals on the head" means "it's a great blessing"? Is that not weird? Seems to me, if someone has to keep a fire burning, they know how to do it - you don't get someone running around with a firebox on his head and getting filthy dirty. Keeping fires burning was so very important that keeping them banked (burning very slowly) was a skill quickly learned. (There's a pub in England that reputedly has not let its fire go out since early 1700s - you think they're the only ones who know that? When I was a little kid, in the winter months, our own house fire was never allowed to go out.) Lamsa's explanations need to be considered along with any other evidence or suggestions that might explain something unusual to us. His views are a long way from gospel.

:offtopic:Thanks, chockfull and JJ. Yeah, my head is right, and I'm so thankful. But the missing years in the CV don't disappear, and the experience that I should have gained doesn't miraculously appear. In my line of work, a break tends to be permanent. I'm doing sideways shifts, looking at anything at all that might pay the bills. Like JJ, I won't ever get that big salary that I could have been earning, not that that was of major interest - but right now any salary would be of huge interest. Telling my mortgage lender and utilities suppliers that God will provide doesn't quite cut it with them :(. Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Using the word "cult" arouses all sorts of perceptions. Try to avoid it. I say : I was with an abusive or legalistic church. I learned some good stuff and some bad stuff. I met some great folks and some not-so-great folks. And, since it's your in-laws, say that one of the great people you met was their own son. Now I'm learning other stuff from [this church] (if you are). People who have been going to church, any church, can relate to legalistic churches; quite a lot of people, when you enquire about, have run foul of some legalistic church leader/minister. If they persist in asking if it was a cult, ask them what they mean, and ask them if [the church down the road] is also a cult. What about the one on the other side of town? Where do they draw the line? Emphasise positive aspects of life now - love for God, positive or practical things you do based on the Bible, openness to change. Above all, be as "normal" and positive as you can be, and definitely avoid jargon.

Harmless as doves? See my tag line!! Right now I don't feel at all harmless. In fact I feel furious, miserable and aggressive. Been trying to get a job for ages, interview today, just got the No thanks call. If that s0dding place had been honest in the first place, I would never have done what I did (enter the Corps) because that would have meant giving up on a career where I really thought I could help people, where people came to me for help. I thought I'd have been able to give them more help. But no - to return to one's profession is to return to vomit. Have to be sold out and work for the ministry. Oh you didn't work hard enough. Let's just throw you out and rip all your self-confidence from you, any that was left. Oh, and as you do not pass go but do collect two hundred pounds of guilt and self-condemnation, we'll really push you down in the ditch;in fact, we will push you off a cliff into some deep sea so that you really can't get back on your feet. It's all your fault anyway. Pah! Yes they knew they were manipulating people. They knew way before I ever entered; they knew whilst I was in rez, they know now. And all the staff Corps know, even as they do menial jobs, yet they still encourage you to give up your good job and join them in meniality, sorry, the more abundant life. :realmad: :realmad: and :mad2: :mad2: for good measure. Thank God for Grease Spot. At least I now know that I know that I was manipulated and lied to.

Welcome, Pax! ...You've been out so long, and only just found the party! Draw up a chair and have a beer. Several posters have commented on people who have left TWI but haven't left TWI doctrine...you wonder why they left, then. I know people like that. It's quite hard to talk to them; only with difficulty willing to entertain a different view or way of going on because clearly you are urging them to stray from "the truth" - as they know it. Instead of concentrating on what they have in common with other Christians and using that as a base or springboard, such ex-Wayfers often concentrate on the differences and use those to magnify...their own greater knowledge. They accept the hostility that their approach engenders as being evidence of their stand on the truth/commitment/superior doctrine...I detect the desire still to "teach" others more accurately. It's real cringe-making stuff because I know some of those others to be deeply committed Christians, whose lives are steeped in real practical outworking of their faith/belief that is impacting positively on the lives of many other people. And so, the real outworking of God and the exploration of Him are stifled by the close-mindedness of ex-Wayfers who are in heart still Wayfers.

Oh golly gosh, those'd be a good listen on GS Radio. Did they know they were being recorded? If not, you probably couldn't upload. If they did know, it'd be good to hear. Anyway, they were probably recording you - from stuff I've read on this board, they recorded everything.

Apparently so, but he has set himself up as a real estate salesman, claiming that he has >20 years living in the area implying good knowledge of the housing market in NK. Yeah, right, if you consider trailers as housing.

Only among (ex) Way believers could there be such a huge discussion about the (possible) meanings of two words meaning receive. Not what the average church goer spends a lot of time thinking about. They'd rather just "receive" and "do" (or not) than spend time wondering what somebody 2000 years ago did (or not).

I thought I might post something onto his page - like a link to GSC - but the page has already disappeared, inaccessible. Pity.

Paramilitary type, seems to be ex-SAS. And has written this book: Oops..... A real paramilitary guy? Geer might have competition, LOL. At least when this latest victim escapes from that organisation, he might have some demolition skills to dispose of HQ on a permanent basis. (Oops again, I never said that...)

R&X the book wasn't mid-80s, it was a bit later, late 80s or very early 90s, wasn't it? As to the R&X book - more like, Martindale was teaching his own personal experience. Projecting, reading into, "identifying with." Maybe he was feeling a bit persecuted, got at. Not without justification: Geer had written PoP and slammed the Trustees badly, got them to sign the document "admitting" their "guilt" over VPW's death. LCM had been in his "fog years" stuff. Here he is, the new Prez, and here is this [other] wannabe Geer snapping at his heels. Thinking how VPW pursued the Paul/Timothy image, with VPW/Paul as the leader and LCM as Timothy, and LCM's own teachings on how Timothy was weak and let things slide, can't you just see LCM seeing himself as Timothy ought (in LCM's mind) to have been - bold, strong and fearless, leading the ministry out in victory? Yet being harassed by that horrible usurper James/Geer, who "seemed to be" a leader in Jerusalem/Gartmore? Or maybe LCM was just hero-worshipping VPW. I don't remember reading that bit in the book. I'm glad about that.

Load of rubbish, OS, you don't need to know.

The piggybank's empty, guess I won't be shopping there today. No indicaation of who's behind the site, no About Us page or whatever. I did notice a selection of teachings by Lovely Loy including one called "Doulos Doings" (relevant to a current thread about the meaning of "doulos" and another by him called "Girding your loins" or some such. That gives me the heebie-jeebies, knowing what he was actually doing with his loins at the time... :wacko: (barf).

It may not be much consolation, Goalie, but then again it might be...it wasn't anything aimed at you, nothing personal if you like. It was just part of their normal policy towards kids that were a little different. There are other posters here who had leaders say horrible things to them about how they should handle their special needs kids. TWI leaders having no idea themselves of how to handle matters, they recommended their normal strategy - beat until submissive; if still not responsive (quiet and obedient), throw out. I'm glad your son has the help he needs.

An update on these two mischievous critters. Tuxedo is as easily startled as ever but is quite affectionate and often comes to me when I'm sitting down and wants a fondle. She doesn't run off as readily and can be caught with comparitive ease. I can seize hold of her and lie on the couch and she will snuggle her head right down on my shoulder and occasionally even purr. But she gets off quick if I don't gently hold her. She eats my plants in the garden and is a diligent hunter of ...moths. Crypto is still a scaredy-pants and slinks around, haunches down and looking wary or guilty. She has just got the two of them confined to the house or allowed out only under supervision. Was in my kitchen two days ago and there was a sudden outcry outside and Crypto came skidding in and to the back of the room. Nothing to be seen outside but Mrs Blackbird was screaming with alarm. I went to see what Crypto was agitated about and there she had a half size fully fledged blackbird, opening its mouth but soundless. I retrieved this and took it outside, put it gently on the lawn, and shut the cats in the kitchen. I noticed the baby bird's leg was broken just above the knee but it appeared otherwise undamaged. Mrs B came and bounced around the lawn but though she saw her baby, did not try to feed it and it didn't open its mouth. Later I took it and put it on the flat roof of my neighbour's shed. It wasn't there half an hour later. I don't know if it could fly, or support itself on its one remaining useable leg, or whether I should - cut off (wince) - the dangling bit of leg which would become a nuisance to it (should it survive). So for the time being the girlies are not allowed outside the house except under supervision. I think the next is in my next door neighbour's garden so that means Crypto has now either dared to go outside my garden, or maybe the baby bird was taking a learner flight and landed on the lawn...more likely. Crypto spent the next couple of hours patrolling the area where I'd removed the bird from. She could smell it and wanted it. Tuxy was also quite excited/interested, not so much in the bird but more in whatever Crypto was interested in. I know it was bound to happen some time...but I'd rather it didn't. She needs to tackle something more her size...like those bl00dy woodpigeons that nip the growing points from the brassicas and steal the berries from my soft fruits.

As they think... Sur-prise!!!! BoD, you've got mail!!!!!

Old Skool makes a fair point here. Just as there was to be a commitment from a slave to the master (especially where there is a choice for the slave to go free, leave the master) so the master had commitments to his slaves. These include the right to fair treatment, not to be abused to the point of permanent damage, and for other provisions. Matthew Henry Commentary -first two paragraphs TWI had a great thing about teaching us to be “douloses” or (“douleia” for women) – sold-out bondslaves-servants to God. But then – they put themselves in God’s place, as his spokesman. They made themselves lords over God’s flock. Without ever taking on the responsibilities of the owner of servant-slaves. And also – without ever remembering that the men and women who make up the BoD/BoT and other higher-ups are themselves douloses of the same God. Here is their reward:

Good on you JJ.

I doubt it's right to say people "stuck it out" to be able to get the WoW pin, or anything else, really. I do think people stuck it out because they had made a commitment to do whatever they were doing, and wanted to see that through. TWI taught so much about commitment (mostly about commitment to the ministry that had taught you the word - gag) - about seeing things through that you'd started - about not quitting when the going got rough - and all of that is good stuff and great principles for life. However, the commitment had subtly become shifted from Godly commitment, to a commitment to TWI. And people became misdirected because TWI is so "in the face," so that they placed the wrong focus on the commitment. It's very liberating to understand that walking away from TWI is NOT walking away from God, and in leaving behind a God-denying organization, you may in fact be walking TOWARDS a better life with God.

It's beginning to look as though Mr Trimm, having successfully fought off TWI, has himself been fought off by GSC. He hasn't been around for several days now. Obviously no takers for his flavor of Kool-Aid.

Ha ha, T&O, I thought I'd be a missionary too. And actually, I did do something like that - got myself a job overseas, loved it, joined what was usually a really supportive twig overseas, and from there made it into the Corps. And from there, everything went downhill. Sucked everything I had out of me ... then spat me out, with nothing, no support, no friends...nothing. Well, I've surely learned how to be a minister, a missionary. Or rather, what those people are NOT.

A little out of context, perhaps, but the implications are clear: In other words, consider the circumstances. That means good things AND bad things. Not got enough money to do what you want? Don't start, "believing to receive" what you need whilst you're building. Not got the strength or ability to start some other project? You or your team aren't good enough? Find a different way to deal with your project. Don't disregard the circumstances, and don't disregard superior strength, facilities, etc. Note that word "consulteth." Doesn't do it alone; talks it over with others, who, presumably, will also be aware of the downsides. I'd say these verses are a significant invitation to be aware of our surroundings, everything that's going on, and not to close our eyes to "negatives." God is not after foolhardy followers. And he doesn't expect us to be foolhardy. He gave us brains to think things through. He surrounded us with people who can offer advice based on the circumstances around us. He gave us free will to choose a course of action that was appropriate for us. We can make those negatives in our backgrounds (and we've all got some) into strengths, or learn how to minimise them - but only if we look realistically at them - and seek proper help, wise counsel, in overcoming them. And the source of that help is not limited to pseudo ministers who get "revelation" from God. Run a mile from those, and seek those who have training, experience, and humility to guide.

There's a very good side to "keeping it positive." However, the flip side is refusing to look at things as they are, and being unrealistic about the current situation. The Bible is full of people in desperate situations. I imagine it was hard to keep positive when you were cooking up your kids to eat, being dragged off as a captive to a foreign land, being enslaved, being unfairly imprisoned, etc. In NT times I admire enormously the bravery of the early Christians who KNEW Paul was coming to their towns and cities to arrest them resulting in torture and quite likely death. Yet they stayed around. What, do you think they were thinking positive and had some early warning system that told them that on the road to Damascus, Paul would be enlightened? What about all the early Christians before that trip? OldSkool, the remarkable King David had a simple background, was favored, was then hunted for many years to within an inch of his life. It was a hard and difficult time. But he did not lose his love for God in that time, and the skills he learned during that time set him up to be the best king Israel could have (at least, in his early years of reigning kingship.) God used his skills and abilities (including music) to reach out to others. And for David to simply enjoy. Whatever your background, there is much that you can still draw from it. You had hard times and overcame them. You have something to share with those from other difficult backgrounds. Now just get out there, play your music, and enjoy your talent. Who knows what a great example you can be - just by living your life? Show people how to escape - a poor background, an aimless youth, and bullying legalism in all its forms. You know what NOT to be!