Twinky

Pour boiling water on them.

Donna has/had a brain tumor?? :blink: Maybe (in fact) that's what's caused something of a change in her behavior? Donna's sins aren't secret, they're plain for all to see. Well, some of 'em.

Toledo? Maybe he can join LCM in that gym or B&Q or wherever he works. Or maybe his dad's engineered it, so that he, B0b, can oust Rosie? Maybe Bri@n will start to learn something...?

Young believers were raised to have expectations of God working. PFAL did raise that expectation...got newbies speaking in tongues, or the TWI version of it. Then - take the next class and learn to do something better...all 9 all the time became just words, we needed another class to learn to "interpret" and "prophesy". Then at the Adv class, we were given even more rules and procedures..."green light revelation"?? And we were told God wouldn't spit in our direction if we didn't do this or that. Even little things. In fact, they taught us fear not freedom. Condemnation, not calm. Graft, not grace. Works, not wonders. Yeah, they surely did plan God out of our lives...! WAI, glad you've found the book helpful. Freeing.

I watched it. Hey, what a nice video. What a lovely group of people, a little "dressed up" and churchy looking, but okay. Nice research team, all studying and discussing between themselves. Clearly not racially biased; note the darker-skinned people on the team. And it's it lovely that at every fellowship they make it available to share of one's abundance? 'Scuse me...barfffff

Okay, now what happened? The whole "look" of the cafe has changed. Has it had a sudden re-paint since I called by this morning? Am I in the same Cafe? Have I fallen through the looking glass?

Not really. The first thing he taught us is a few decent Biblical principles. This spirits stuff didn't come in till waaaay later. Anyone see the conflict where he expected grandparents to pay for things that their parents were unable to afford because they were paid on a "needs" basis? And where he expected those same people to claim state and other benefits - eg for health care? And...what about "spiritual partners" who were supposed to help in rez Corps - and (bless 'em) they frequently did, by providing what the $30/month did not cover. I remember him yelling that no Way believer should ever claim state benefits. God was bigger than that! Once you got entangled with the government benefits scheme, they had their hooks into you and you would never escape. (It was to do with the amount of information they required from you...but, hey, think about the amount of info the government already has...!)

Let's see Rosie put it to the test. Leave HQ with $200 in her pocket and no access to other funds, and the clothes on her back and whatever she can carry in a small backpack. In the backpack she may take a Bible of any size she prefers. She must work no more than 20hrs/week and she must demonstrate that, by her own initiative and due to her own efforts and believing, she leads an abundant lifestyle. She may not borrow from anyone, and she not claim state benefits. After 12 months, she may have really learned whether God is her sufficiency...or whether the stockpile of funds at HQ is...

We've all seen enough of wolves disguised as sheep, and this man sounds like another wolf trying out the disguise. What's more, he wants the deacons to be wannabe wolves as well. Erkjohn makes good points. If you're going to call this man on this, make sure you have a good scriptural basis - be able to point to enough examples, scriptures, etc, to convince those who have ears to hear. (Like, "love of money" being a root of evil - maybe even the compassionate response of the Samaritan who, out of his own pocket, tended a needy and injured person! With no thought of reward!)

Plenty of recurring nightmares while I was in. Usually about not being good enough in some way and being thrown out. I have sweet sleeps now that I'm out.

What makes life good is - get this - freedom from fear! Freedom from fear of not being good enough, from condemnation because that last job cutting blades of grass/washing dishes/cleaning the toilets wasn't good enough. Freedom from fear of being late (because you were only 9 minutes early and not the minimum 10 mins early). Freedom from fear of being kicked out for some imagined infraction of some unspoken rule. Freedom from fear of being spiritually defective in some way - from being possessed because you thought something unpleasant about one of the BoT, or wondered why exactly it was that you were doing something crazy. Freedom from fear of fear - because it's so ungodly. Freedom to consider fear-inspring events and take realistic action instead of "believing" for God to magic them away. And freedom to love...God, people, family, kids, pets, and even ourselves!

Have in common? Horrible 70s haircuts (perms)?

Some of those pix look like fun times. Wonder how many of those people are still around? And how many "got a life" outside TWI?

I thought this accusation was made against Howard Allen, not Harry Weirwille...?

T&O, people are constantly let off the hook and given lesser sentences. It's called plea bargaining. And it's essential for the "justice" system (cough) to work because otherwise it would be bogged down with lengthy trials. And also, even if there is no plea bargain, juries have been known to take a view that a murder verdict is not appropriate (eg, a man puts a pillow over the face of a terminally ill spouse or child - clear intention to end life - but a merciful verdict would be manslaughter - much lesser sentence possible.) What is the purpose of prison? To protect the public? Why, if a person has voluntarily reformed? To reform the offender? Think again, it never happens! (And I'm proposing a reformed character here anyway.) Imprisoned criminals usually end up either better more cunning criminals, or forced to recidivism (repeat offending) because of their unemployability afterwards. To state public rejection of certain types of behavior? In that case, there'd be no more thieves or killers or any other kind of criminal - clearly not the case. To deter others? Clearly doesn't work; people still offend. Did you ever read anything by Nicky Cruz, T&O? A notorious gang leader, held his city in terror - was preached the gospel and became a reformed character and is now as full-on for God as he was full-on for terrorizing neighborhoods. Nicky Cruz bio No reason to suppose Melanie's killer is the Nicky Cruz of the area. I'm just musing about appropriate outcomes.

Okay, here is a real event. I know little more detail than noted below. In the city where I now live, a young woman of about 21 went missing after a night out with friends visiting local night clubs. Her friends admit they were all a little (cough) inebriated when they left. A couple of months ago, and some 13 or 14 years after her disappearance, her decomposed remains have turned up in a plastic bag at a motorway junction. Last week, a man walked into the city's police station and confessed to the killing. He's about 34 or so now; so was about the same age as the victim when she disappeared. Question: suppose it was some drunken sexual encounter that went horribly wrong? Suppose the man was drunk, that the encounter went wrong (maybe she laughed at him and he hit her too hard?) - he panicked, perhaps, drove off and tried to hide the body. Or maybe he was a jealous ex-boyfriend who intentionally killed her because she left him? (No details have been released by the police.) Suppose when sober or his rage at rejection was abated, the man was horrified by what he did, and has lived an exemplary life since, avoiding drink and substances or situations that make him lose self-control? Maybe he had an abused upbringing, where violence was the answer to any problem? Maybe he has voluntarily undertaken anger management course(s)? Maybe he has married and is now raising kids in a proper and very responsible manner? Should such a man face a murder trial that might result in his imprisonment for a very long period? What would be the point - if he has become rehabilitated? What about the effect of depriving his kids of a good role model? (Note: I'm not saying "no punishment.") (I emphasise that I know nothing about the man who's confessed; it's even possible that he's a wannabe, one of those strange people who confess even though there's no possibility they could be the perpetrator - though I doubt it, in this case. ...I do know that 20 year old young people when drunk do all sorts of things they wouldn't do when sober.)

Dooj, I'm sorry for your loss, had hoped for many years together for you. Condolences. I didn't know RR but enjoyed his posts. He was clearly well respected here and well loved among his friends.

You do realize that it's "two men" and "two women" - added words being in italics - ie, two persons (sex unspecified). Men worked in the fields; women did the grinding of corn. It's just what they did. Would you make the same "marriage" argument for two males fixing a car together, or two females doing the weekly shop at the store together? Sorry, you flunked this one.

Folks - The following speaker came to the church I go to, made a presentation about living a risky life - having trust in the Lord. His presentation then featured bungy jumping - you know you're safe, but there's a moment just before you jump that you're fearful. He is making other presentations to local churches, raising awareness and fundraising. He puts his money where his mouth is. He has a big mission in Burundi, a country that's little heard about, doing Christian outreach, in partnership with others. The poverty is extreme. The people are very hard hit. Their faith in Christianity is tremendous and they will share whatever little thing they have. One Burundian minister borrowed a pair of shoes off Simon because he thought it wasn't fitting that he should preach whilst so poorly attired (Simon of course gave him the shoes!). Here's his details: Simon Guillebaud, founder of Great Lakes Outreach, Burundi (http://www.greatlakesoutreach.org/) Simon is author of: For what it's worth: A call to no-holds-barred discipleship, Dangerously Alive: An African Adventure of Faith under Fire Simon is likely to be challenging in the extreme: (WARNING: Link contains photographs which will disturb) More than Conquerors PowerPoint presentation. Simon can be found on facebook as: "Simon Guillebaud" If you click on the first link, you will be able to see the last annual report detailing where everything has come from and is going to. (There are slide bars on some pages with more info.) If you click the PowerPoint presentation (but not if you are squeamish or depressed or have just eaten), you will see what some of the issues are that the people he works with have to deal with. If it doesn't shake your complacency, what became of your conscience? And yet - people come to and cling to faith in those circumstances. The reason I'm posting this is because this is seriously committed Christian outreach, mission field, working with those in deep need. Perhaps you already know people involved in like missions. I really wanted to post this so that you could see something of (a) what mission outreach is (b) how open the organisation is about its funding Compare and contrast with other organisations that you know are sitting on a pile of money. TWI and perhaps other organisations might well call this "a bag with holes" and bottomless need (ie, don't therefore bother to do anything). Others...do things. I'm not calling Simon the "Mother Theresa" of Burundi. He's a highly educated young man who sees a need and acts. He is the one who really could have been president of a Fortune 500 company; he has the ability and the contacts. But he chooses this life. Discuss.

Okay, Thomas, let's see. I thought Lamsa's books were good little books to begin with, but wondered at his ability to be completely sure about what was what then. Had no idea he wrote so many. Suppose any of us decided to write about our own culture even say 500 years ago? It's not innate. We'd have to do shedloads of research. Passed-down folk histories don't do it. Customs do change. (To some extent, even Wierwille acknowledged this by saying that every generation has to make the Bible its own.) We make the culture our own and the customs that go with it differ, generation to generation. Artefacts can be left, but good archaeologists from any culture can interpret them to the best of knowledge then known. Archaeologists' opinions, however, can vary widely. How much harder, then, to interpret something that leaves no physical trace, and very little trace in culture today? Lamsa has a different viewpoint because he has a different background. It's always worth considering other people's viewpoints. But it doesn't make them righter or wronger than our own viewpoint. To a large extent - all this is "head knowledge" - but what does it really do for "heart knowledge"? Does it help to be told that "burning coals on the head" means "it's a great blessing"? Is that not weird? Seems to me, if someone has to keep a fire burning, they know how to do it - you don't get someone running around with a firebox on his head and getting filthy dirty. Keeping fires burning was so very important that keeping them banked (burning very slowly) was a skill quickly learned. (There's a pub in England that reputedly has not let its fire go out since early 1700s - you think they're the only ones who know that? When I was a little kid, in the winter months, our own house fire was never allowed to go out.) Lamsa's explanations need to be considered along with any other evidence or suggestions that might explain something unusual to us. His views are a long way from gospel.

:offtopic:Thanks, chockfull and JJ. Yeah, my head is right, and I'm so thankful. But the missing years in the CV don't disappear, and the experience that I should have gained doesn't miraculously appear. In my line of work, a break tends to be permanent. I'm doing sideways shifts, looking at anything at all that might pay the bills. Like JJ, I won't ever get that big salary that I could have been earning, not that that was of major interest - but right now any salary would be of huge interest. Telling my mortgage lender and utilities suppliers that God will provide doesn't quite cut it with them :(. Now back to the regularly scheduled topic.

Using the word "cult" arouses all sorts of perceptions. Try to avoid it. I say : I was with an abusive or legalistic church. I learned some good stuff and some bad stuff. I met some great folks and some not-so-great folks. And, since it's your in-laws, say that one of the great people you met was their own son. Now I'm learning other stuff from [this church] (if you are). People who have been going to church, any church, can relate to legalistic churches; quite a lot of people, when you enquire about, have run foul of some legalistic church leader/minister. If they persist in asking if it was a cult, ask them what they mean, and ask them if [the church down the road] is also a cult. What about the one on the other side of town? Where do they draw the line? Emphasise positive aspects of life now - love for God, positive or practical things you do based on the Bible, openness to change. Above all, be as "normal" and positive as you can be, and definitely avoid jargon.

Harmless as doves? See my tag line!! Right now I don't feel at all harmless. In fact I feel furious, miserable and aggressive. Been trying to get a job for ages, interview today, just got the No thanks call. If that s0dding place had been honest in the first place, I would never have done what I did (enter the Corps) because that would have meant giving up on a career where I really thought I could help people, where people came to me for help. I thought I'd have been able to give them more help. But no - to return to one's profession is to return to vomit. Have to be sold out and work for the ministry. Oh you didn't work hard enough. Let's just throw you out and rip all your self-confidence from you, any that was left. Oh, and as you do not pass go but do collect two hundred pounds of guilt and self-condemnation, we'll really push you down in the ditch;in fact, we will push you off a cliff into some deep sea so that you really can't get back on your feet. It's all your fault anyway. Pah! Yes they knew they were manipulating people. They knew way before I ever entered; they knew whilst I was in rez, they know now. And all the staff Corps know, even as they do menial jobs, yet they still encourage you to give up your good job and join them in meniality, sorry, the more abundant life. :realmad: :realmad: and :mad2: :mad2: for good measure. Thank God for Grease Spot. At least I now know that I know that I was manipulated and lied to.

Welcome, Pax! ...You've been out so long, and only just found the party! Draw up a chair and have a beer. Several posters have commented on people who have left TWI but haven't left TWI doctrine...you wonder why they left, then. I know people like that. It's quite hard to talk to them; only with difficulty willing to entertain a different view or way of going on because clearly you are urging them to stray from "the truth" - as they know it. Instead of concentrating on what they have in common with other Christians and using that as a base or springboard, such ex-Wayfers often concentrate on the differences and use those to magnify...their own greater knowledge. They accept the hostility that their approach engenders as being evidence of their stand on the truth/commitment/superior doctrine...I detect the desire still to "teach" others more accurately. It's real cringe-making stuff because I know some of those others to be deeply committed Christians, whose lives are steeped in real practical outworking of their faith/belief that is impacting positively on the lives of many other people. And so, the real outworking of God and the exploration of Him are stifled by the close-mindedness of ex-Wayfers who are in heart still Wayfers.

Oh golly gosh, those'd be a good listen on GS Radio. Did they know they were being recorded? If not, you probably couldn't upload. If they did know, it'd be good to hear. Anyway, they were probably recording you - from stuff I've read on this board, they recorded everything.