Twinky

Sunesis - I do enjoy your posts. Always something to think about.

From Cheranne's link: I would have thought the first question to ask is: "Do they love God?"Quickly followed by: "Do they love their fellow human beings?" (Matt 22, Mark 12, Luke 10) And then the next thing to ask is: "Do they confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead? " Three yeses and you might be onto something. If they don't do these things - run, do not walk, away from this organization. Or website, as the case may be. What the heck is the Chjristian orthodox historical concept of anything?

On the thread "How Close were we to the JWs?" on page 3 there's a number of interesting posts, including a couple from Socks (but not just his posts) that got me thinking. We all did that witnessing thing, door-knocking, accosting people in shopping malls, and whatever, proclaiming our brand of "the Truth". Of whatever of those beliefs you once subscribed to (or at least spouted off), what do you adhere to and yet don't talk about? Why not? For instance: I can't think of a time I ever believed Jesus=God. Even though that's what the church I was raised in taught. It wasn't till I got to TWI that I realized people actually did believe that. And they do! They are astounded that I don't believe this and look at me like I've sprouted horns and a tail. Good friends of mine want to pray for me to see the light about this heretical belief. I go to a mainstream church now. They believe Jesus=God. Because of that, I think some aspects of their theology are so rubbish that I have to re-sort it in my head whilst listening to the sermon or whatever. But generally, there is enough there that it leads me forwards not backwards. But do I raise the status (?) of Jesus with other members of the congregation? No! Or its leadership? Doubly no! Why not? Possibly partly because of a fear (?) that I will be banned, ostracized, persona non grata, again (being M&A'd from TWI was a hell time for me; I lost everything). And possibly because they're as committed to their beliefs as I am to mine. And because I believe God looks on the heart and these people's hearts are to love God. Every denomination, organization, makes some mistakes. We're all wrong in something. And to raise this - causes division. Makes an issue where there should be unity of heart. Better to concentrate on what we have in common, than in petty differences. If anybody in a Christian context were to ask, though, I'd stand my ground. I'm just not willing to make an issue of it. And certainly, for non-Christians, it's not an issue and they're willing to accept "one God" for more readily than "one trinity of Gods". What've you hung onto, that distinguishes you from mainstream churches? Have you gone back to your old beliefs, adopted some new ones, just don't care any more (some of you don't). Do you, in fact, try to win anyone for Christ/God/your current deity - in whatever form?

Oops, OldSkool. You've been there, done that, got the scars. Try (some easy task like that (LOL)) and get your friend to read the Bible more widely. At least you have a shot at understanding her mindset. And know walking away isn't the end of the world. (Walks away shaking her head sadly and laughing under her breath)

Good bump, OldSkool. Scary how Noni's recollections mirror a lot of TWI recollections. How people do love to mess around with others' heads. If we remembered it was: "Love God, love your fellow man" and forgot about meaningless rituals, we'd all be a lot happier.

I have a few books now: "A Lion Handbook of the World's Religions" - various contributors "The World's Religions" by Ninian Smart and some others that I haven't looked at yet: "A Handbook of Living Religions" by John Hinnells "The Hutchinson Encyclopedia of Living Faiths" ed by RC Zaehner "An Idiot's Guide to Islam" (in the usual Idiot's Guide series) FWIW, I've worked with a number of Muslim colleagues, all of whom have been very nice people and we've had interesting discussions. The terrorists that perform hideous acts in the name of Allah are no more representative of their alleged faith than terrorist bombers in any other pretend religious community (eg, in Ireland) (or dare I say it...Israelis). I've also met some great folks confessing Judaism as their religion.

I knew something of Anglican beliefs before TWI. Nothing about other Protestant sets of beliefs. Nothing about Eastern religions. Enough to think badly of Catholicism. I know a bit more about Eastern beliefs now, having come into contact with people from other lands (there were no non-white Brits where I lived). I didn't think the people from the church I attended "lived" the gospel and walked out when I was around 13 years of age. The longing to know was still there, though, and periodically I wandered into various churches but wasn't impressed. Then I met a WoW and was impressed by what he knew of the Bible. Someone actually knew what it said, and meant! Hare Krishna was around at the time; what a bunch of weirdos. Other churches seemed to be in crisis. I wanted to know. I was a sucker for TWI. Not at all keen on The Class and had to be dragged to it. Liked the teaching (PFAL) and excused the weirder bits and inconsistencies. At last there was some positive teaching, not wishy washy! Some of the people seemed ignorant of practically everything else about life, they were happy and relaxed with God and trusted him completely. And seemed to be doing well. So I excused them as well. People simply don't have time to browse every religion or set of beliefs about anything, and become expert in each, knowing all the intricacies, before making a choice...maybe a choice by default. I'd support teaching a little about major religions but knowing how much variation and inaccuracy there can be just on Christianity, how much confidence could there be in learning a little of other major religions? Would the local rabbi or imam or confuscian or buddhist be able to give an unbiased decription of the main tenets of that religion? In cities here where there is a high immigrant population, festivals are celebrated like Diwali and schoolkids are taught a little information at really basic level.

Nicotine patches are supposed to work really well. Available (in various strengths) at pharmacies. Might be a good alternative. In the UK the NHS (National Health Service) runs "Stop Smoking" clinics in which a group of people wanting to give up meet regularly (a bit like Alcs Anon??) and the clinics have been found to be very successful because of the support offered. Anything like that near you?

Sure is a lot of useful stuff out there, all free. I just checked, and my AVG Free has an anti-spyware thing in it. I think the firewall is through AVG in some way. I did have ZoneAlarm and that slowed things down horrendously. Friend who is a computer chappie by trade uninstalled ZoneAlarm and said there is already a firewall. Is there any way to know if one's address has been grabbed for spamming all the world selling Viagra?

Hey Rottie, sorry to hear about your dog. I know she's really special to you.

Might be illegal but ... isn't there anyone here who could hack into their website and post from or link to the long thread(s) about LEAD in the forums here? There's a huge amount that can be learned about God, understanding him better, etc, when you're outdoors. Perhaps especially in a program like LEAD ought to have been - challenging, but properly overseen by people who have significant skills in what they're doing. But (maybe) except for the first expedition, LEAD wasn't like that. And I don't see that the SOWERS version, LEAD2 is, either. Nice that they could travel there by any way they wanted - hitchhike, drive, fly. How much money, I wonder, was allowed to them to purchase a plane ticket? In fact, for only six of them plus all their gear (76lb pack, as one of them states), SOWERS could have hired one minibus and they could all have driven there in relative comfort. They could've believed God to meet the right people to speak to in stops along the way. Maybe even picked up hitchhikers themselves (better to give than receive, folks).

Welcome back, Gerry. You wouldn't have met me online before, I was never on that old site. Anyway people are still escaping though there are fewer newbies here - fewer inmates to escape!!

Comments above on this page... Who'd'ya think would win in a fight between Rosie and Geer? Maybe they should have a merger. After all, their common adversary LCM is well out of the...way. The battle of the egos...arch manipulators...southern sugar against Maine steel.

Just wondering if I should install some of this stuff. I know yesterday I opened a pps that was a convincing hoax. My computer runs slowly anyway, can't take anything that slows it down. Not much memory. I use Firefox and AVG Free (latest version) which probably stop something but as Bramble has said on another thread - you authorize a pop-up - you let in baddies. Heh, and I have Win2000.

This is turning into a much more interesting thread than I'd expected; and I really welcome your views and comments. Krys, I don't think Broken Arrow is bored; but Jim is. Socks, appreciate your insight. The "logos" embodiment of thoughts, ideas, concepts...kinda what we were taught in TWI. What I always understood anyway. And an idea is clearly there before its actual embodiment; there are many preparatory steps along the way before the envisaged embodiment. An artist "sees" or "envisages" a picture before s/he paints it; an architect "sees" a building before s/he designs it; an athlete "sees" that winning line during training. A world dictator "sees" his empire before its conquest. Even mere human beings envisage their families , and how they hope to live, way before any children are conceived. It's amazing how some Christians see Jesus as being the "Word" and flying around in the sky before his birth; but the written "Word" (pages of KJV perhaps?) wasn't also floating around somewhere in outer space.

Can you expand on that a little, Sunesis? What was "logos" to the Greeks? You imply some fuller meaning. I like John. A lot of my research paper spent time there. Really got into it. It's just not where I'd want to start anyone. Perhaps I'm too aware of the "baggage" that comes with the first few verses of chapter 1. It's not actually so difficult, if you don't look at it through theologically tinted glasses.

Still 7, Garth. I just looked. Must be hard work being a puppy. They're all flat out, like slugs. Only one seems capable of movement and s/he is crawling around trying to get others to play. Leader of the pack. Or maybe s/he just hasn't got priorities right, LOL. Whole heap of fun when all awake.

The girlies have a new toy. It's a door. In fact, a door with a catflap. Had a new door installed yesterday, had the catflap put in. Tuxy emerged when all went quiet. Crypto hid ALL DAY because she didn't like the noise or the workman. I smeared the catflap with catnip and got their interest but they wouldn't attempt to go out. I managed to catch hold of Tuxedo and took her outside and showed her how to get in. Then taped the flap open. She spent the rest of the evening climbing in and out, not really sure of this new thing to do, but finding it rather interesting. This morning, I locked both of them out before breakfast, shook the Go-Cat box. T came in cautiously followed 10 mins later by Crypto. C loves being outside and has found the in/out ability fascinating. She slinks (oils) through the door (either way) absolutely silently. This evening, a small CATastrophe. I thought I'd got them both in, then locked the flap on the 4-way so no in and no out. An hour or so later, there's a frantic scared scream/howl followed by a crashing at the flap. Somehow Tuxy is outside. In the garden is another cat. She is afraid of it (it is rather big and very confident). She must have crashed into the flap and been terrified. I am a little worried about other cats getting in but there is no way I'll be able to get my two to wear magnetic collars. Not that, so far as I'm aware, any other cat has ever walked in, even though I quite often leave the door wide open.

I have a friend who is exploring Christianity. Did an Alpha course (he thought helpful, but I thought an utter waste of time...but it's his show), then those who wanted worked through bits of Philippians and they're now doing gospel of John. So the first session was all about how John 1 proves that Jesus=word=God. Also Jesus = light of world...and a few other things. John is a great gospel with some rivetting stuff in it, but hardly the place for a novice to start. They could have chosen any of Mat, Mk or Luke had they so wished - why go for the hardest? This is for a bunch of people most of whom have never read a Bible at all, perhaps hardly even go to church; but have an interest and want to explore a little. Friend came back wanting to look at my interlinear. Knows Greek and read John in the Greek. Has checked out some sources on line. The controversy and obscure readings have already made him want to throw the whole Christian thing up as a load of nonsense - if Christians can't agree about that - why bother with any of it?

Lotta real scholars out there whose works we never got to hear of. Lotta real Christian living out there whose joyful hearts brought forth works we never got to hear about Lotta real love out there that we never got to celebrate. Lotta beauty of creation out there that we never got to consider and think how wonderfully that was made.

I finally got some tomatoes this year. Lots. Nice, too. But what am I to do with so many? Not much else did well this year, partly because I was too busy to tend the garden much; and partly because it's been so very dry. I have mown the grass twice in the last two weeks - and only the 3rd and 4th times this entire year, the other two times being in the spring - too dry even for the grass to grow. (So much for "It always rains in England" !!) I also had some luscious autumn raspberries, first good ones ever in these youngish plants. Very large, very deep purple - nearly black, very sweet. Mmmm-mmm!

Just to add to your considerations, teach, check out this link: John 1:1

Managed to get a copy of the article Waysider mentioned. Also discovered that it is written about (though more articulately) in a chapter in JCNG). On re-reading it - it's all fluff and puff, showing off. I also remember studying this in some "depth" in rez under the scholarly LCM. We spent some weeks on it, I think, and digressed widely from John all over the place. Thanks for offers. I think this matter is now closed.

Thanks, Waysider. Now, anybody got a scanner?

Anybody got a copy of TWI's analysis of John 1:1-14? Isn't there one of the collaterals that covers this? If so, could you post/attach to a reply, PM me, or email a copy - whatever. It may be also that some of you have some other research (pre-dating TWI? Plagiarized by VPW?) and it would be useful to see that, too. Thanks.