Twinky

Thanks, JBarrax. I like the analogy of the "tapestry of truths." Clearly soul and spirit are different things. The context of this is faith (or belief) and "resting" in that faith. Ceasing our own works. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. So this is about motives - whether the fleshly "old man" or the spiritual "new man in Christ." I fail to see why, having divided them asunder, they should need to be reunited (as this teacher says). And yet, as JBarrax says...what is this soul doing in Revelation?? Interesting! Hebrews 4 At the end of the day, it really is all about love God, love your fellow human beings and not getting overly intellectual about it to the point of distraction. I will ponder this in the next few weeks until further teaching sessions on this topic (couple of weeks, I think) but welcome further suggestions, discussion, whatever. (Okay, let's see if the link works now...)

Thank; you, Broken Arrow.

's always been my view that God invented color in all its vividness, intensity, vibrancy...and to wear bright colors is to honor God. God could have made things in black and white...or green, yellow and red...but he chose a whole range of color to express himself and ... just for pleasure! How beautifully colored things are - that we cannot see - the workings inside animals and humans - fish at the very bottom of the sea - plants that have colors the human eye cannot see...but bees can. What playfulness!! What variety!! Always amazes me that churchmen dress traditionally in long BLACK robes. Black the color of darkness. All the best with your book, Spec.

Thanks, Roy, but not sure that helps.

This does not relate directly to TWI teachings. I've been attending a wannabe Bible school in my town – just one evening a week. Tonight included a 1-hour session (first of several) entitled Spirit Soul and Body. Most of this session ran along lines that followed TWI teaching on the topic. (Frankly, I was amazed because I haven't found many non-Wayfers who have much concept of "spirit" or they think it is synonymous with "soul".) Anyway, this man's teaching included the following: "Spirit" is the same as "heart" – "when the Bible speaks of the heart, it is speaking of the spirit…In the NT, wherever the word heart is used, substitute the word spirit and you will get a clearer picture of what is being said." 2 Cor 5:17 Although our spirit is perfect and does not need to be saved, our soul does (Jas 1:18-21). And "man's soul is saved when his mind is renewed [by effort from the Christian, not by God's efforts] with the Word of God. It is the Word of God that saves our souls, renews our mind and restores our soul." After the session was over, I asked him what the purpose of saving the soul might, in his view, be. His view is that the spirit and the soul become melded together, inseparable, and they go on together after death of the body. (This is to be developed in future teachings.) Finally: Feelings are the voice of the body; Reason is the voice of the soul (or mind); Conscience is the voice of the spirit (again, this will be developed in future teachings). And I asked, if conscience is the voice of the spirit, how does he reconcile that with getting the spirit when we get born again? Because plenty of people have consciences and they wouldn't class themselves as Christians. His answer is that we are all born with a "degenerate spirit." As this is the topic of a future teaching, I don't know much about this viewpoint – don't know if he thinks the degenerate spirit is rehabilitated, replaced, or what. Maybe – but maybe not – this degenerate spirit is what VPW called "the spirit of man" – as being different from [the gift of] holy spirit that we get at the new birth. So, really, this thread has three tracks: 1. Are "spirit" and "heart" the same, or at least similar? 2. Views on "spirit" and "soul" becoming one? 3. Views on this degenerate spirit that we're supposed to have? I'm not dismissing (bits of) these ideas – but not taking them hook line and sinker either. Healthy suspicion is called for, I think. Search the scriptures to see whether these things are so. And also enquire of the "research team" of the Café, whose disparate views are always interesting.

Still but yeah, BA, every so often there is a season of anti-slavery films and at Greenbelt (Christian Festival) a couple of years ago, the principal act on Sat evg was promoting awareness of anti-trafficking. Here's a link: Stop the Traffik But everyday there are ethical choices to make, about what we purchase, use, enjoy, do - or don't do. Sometimes those are not easy choices. It was Christians - mostly Quakers, some Anglicans - including Wilberforce, a Christian who was a politician - who finally brought the slave trade to an end via legislation in Parliament. It still took years to have full effect. And in the US you had outright civil war about it - and still see effects of that now. Slavery history website Maybe some of those who are virtual slaves in sweat shops, tea plantations, building sites, mines...are also fellow Christians... or maybe not. Do you have a Fairtrade equivalent in the US? Fairtrade The choices we make may affect the future a long way ahead - way beyond our lifetimes - try and live responsibly towards your fellow man...on the other side of the planet. Being a New Dynamic Church means thinking things through for today - not pretending we're the first century church. We can take the best of sharing in our communities - but not limit our community boundary to just our immediate environment. Let's not forget that the first century new dynamic church looked forward expectantly to the return of Christ, and used that as a yardstick for their daily actions. I'll get off the soap box now.

Didn't the great VP also say, "Every generation must discover the Word for itself"? Meaning, you have to discover the Word (gag) for yourself. It has to fit in your "day and time". >>No point nowadays in expecting a person to walk in front of a motor vehicle with a red flag - but the issue of "how fast is too fast?" remains for vehicles today. >>No point in ignoring newer things, like, say, medical research on animals and pretending it doesn't exist - but how how do you treat the animals otherwise? >>No point in ignoring medical science that keeps people alive from diseases that would have killed them a mere couple of decades ago - but when is enough medical intervention enough? >>How do we react to "slavery" today? Not people tranported across the world in ships - but those in their home countries, who work in sweat shops in appalling conditions without safety features that would be expected in factories in our countries - so that we can wear ultra-cheap clothing? For an ancient book, the Bible's really quite amazing what of today's "issues" it refers to and has something to say about. And knowing how to apply those principles - is what makes the "new dynamic church" - not digging out some meaning of a Greek word. I'm trying now, to think of any instance where the Way did actually seek to apply principles to issues of Life now other than to try to compel "obedience". Hmm. Maybe a separate thread.... People and circumstances don't really change a great deal but the peripherals do. The moral issues remain the same, just what they apply to, and how.

Ah jeez...just read this thread. Echoes of all that I also went through. The early 90s under LCM was a particularly cruel time. Thank God I found this place. Think I'd still be a basket case otherwise. 'bout the only thing I'd disagree with on this thread is where someone said, once they kick you out, the locust (TWI) can't steal any more years. Well if they've stolen enough of your ability to think, your self-esteem, your confidence in God, in life, in ... everything....so that you can't hardly move - they're still stealing your years. Still being locusts. What kills locusts? I found this on the net: What kills locusts ("Biological locust sprays ...are a solution for destroying locusts on organic properties and in national parks. They work by killing locusts with spores from a fungus, which grows inside the insect.") One hopes that the dissent from within will soon kill off the remains of that locust in NK. Waiter, pass the locust spray!!!

Greek2me, thanks for posting that article. Very interesting. Doesn't (in this article) talk about the "renewed mind" as being "the promised land" - perhaps later articles do? - but I do like the way it picks up lots of threads of the new life in Christ. And it's clear it's not a TWI document because of the terminology (like "Holy Ghost"). Who is the author of this, please? Creds? Can you post a link to the other teachings in the series?

Interesting, if the person had Googled TWI they would end up here. I wonder what s/he will think about the responses? Nothing favorable there.

Centralization of power has good Biblical precedent. Follow the wanderings of the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark had become a sort of (dangerous) trophy but it stayed in tents (tabernacles) at various locations. Then David installs in in Jerusalem. And, as King, accretes power to himself. After all, he has the Word of God captive, doesn't he? People had since early Israelite historybeen required to present themselves to the Lord for the Passover (Easter), Feast of Weeks (Pentecost), and Tabernacles (in Fall) - "Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose" (Ex 23 (twice) and Deut 16). Note: location unspecified. But David began to accrete power and make Jerusalem his HQ. David's successor, Solomon, David's son, decided that that place was of his (Solomon's) choosing - in Jerusalem (2 Chron 8). And after that, Zion, sorry, New Knoxville, sorry, Jerusalem, became the centralized place of worship, where lived the Teacher and High Priest, and whence flowed all directives and commandments. And so, you see, there is strong Biblical precedent for the leader to take an easy and very bearable commandment of God, lay other further requirements on the people, and then for his successor to continue to add to the requirements. All in God's name, of course. In fact, you'll even see "time management" and control in existence, with David attempting to control Uriah's time ("you will visit your wife now!"). Clearly, it was Uriah's failure to adhere to God-given revelation to David to change his, Uriah's, schedule that got Uriah killed. (Can you see my tongue in cheek?)

It shocked me when I first got thrown out how nice people were. Clearly, this was a trick of the devil to try and knock me even further off course. Their kindness and soft words were just a lure. I was very very suspicious of soft-spoken, reasonable, helpful people. Even now, I have found occasionally that with people who "matter" in some way, and in particular, a close friend (very kind) - some things they say to me can sometimes make me freeze, send chills up my spine, provoke an unreasonably strong or frightened reaction from me. Less so now in the work situation, which is very supportive. I'm wary of church leaders that I don't know well. But never (thankfully) is it a problem at church, where sometimes I deliberately turn up late - because I can! - and nobody says anything but "Welcome!" and means it. Hope your daughter sorts out her problems, 100%, and that this is a lesson in life that she's able to learn in an encouraging and supportive environment. Sounds like a lesson you're learning, too.

Slightly Went to a meeting last night. There is a "pastor" from a church in a nearby town. He was referring to a verse at the end of Hebrews about "submitting" to those who have leadership over you, because they watch for your souls as they that must give account." He breaks that into two words - sub/mission. If you agree, you are not "submitting" because you are not putting your own plan into effect, you're agreeing that the pastor's plan is correct. You "submit" when you deem your own "mission" of lower value to that of the pastor's. My b-$h1t-ometer was going BEEP BEEP BEEP in a loud manner. What about submitting ourselves one to another? What about the greatest servant being the greatest leader? Where's the "loving" submission part? Runs a bit counter to 1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. I don't doubt that we need "leaders" but they lead by example, not by accreting people to their fellowships, churches, or what-have-you. And the example they set is one of believing God and acting on His word. The leadership training that we should have received should have been of people showing us by example how to act in any situation. Kinda like this: Micah 6:8 KJV He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? (well worth re-reading this chapter) Actually, we did receive great leadership training. In what "it is not."

Here y'are Bowtwi. Hey, Jeffsjo's a Friend there. The Way International - cult Think it could do with a link to the Cafe on its Wall. Wonder how long before that organization tries to make Facebook take it down?

The company that owned this mine had been in financial difficulties in the few years preceding this disaster. The mind had been closed for a period (I think) because they had no money. It's possible that they were cutting corners when it came to safety, which is why the rockfalls occurred - inadequate shoring up or whatever. The rescue has been paid for mostly by the Chilean government (not the mine owning company). No doubt there will be lots of legal wrangling as working out who has to pay for what costs is sorted out. But yesterday was not the day for that. Some of the men have already been released from hospital after thorough checks. The shift leader, who kept it all together, needs formally recognizing with an award, a medal. It could so easily have been a different story without his strong leadership. Mining communities do have a very strong "hang together" sense. There is very little coalmining left in the UK but the north of England was at one time a huge coalmining area. You're right, Linda. Not an easy life. And one with longterm health consequences from all the dust.

From the online blog linked earlier. 04.37 It's over! The last rescue worker, believed to be Manuel Gonzales, is safely out of the mine and back on the surface. He is greeted by jubilant cheers and a final round of "Chi Chi Chi, Le Le Le!". Laughing, he greets the president and his colleagues before delivering the message: "Let this never happen again." His return marks the end of the remarkably successful Operation San Lorenzo. All 33 miners safe. Chile breathes a big sigh of relief, and the party begins... 04.21 He's in the capsule and he's off. The final departure from the bottom of the San Jose mine. 04.20 The rescuer is being cheered as he waves to the mine camera and gives a bow. 04.19 Here we go, the Phoenix 2 has landed at the mine floor for the last time. The last rescuer must get himself into the capsule without any help. It's not clear what will happen to the equipment and supplies left underground by the miners. Will anyone will be game to go down to get them? And a wild party was had by all. Such joy and rejoicing! Anyone who has lived in a community that has a main focus will know how much a disaster affects one and all whether or not they have someone directly involved and mining towns are very tightly focused and community-knit).

Oh brilliant! All the miners are out now - about 22.5 hours. Much less than expected. It's a wonderfully emotional and joyful occasion. No doubt there will be fault-finding and blame later on - but now is not the time. There are still several men down in the mine, rescuers, who themselves need to be retrieved. Well done all!!

Still ongoing. The 29th has just emerged. The Minister of Mines is doing a great job. He welcomes each family representative and has this huge smile that seems so very personal, always has a jolly word to say. It doesn't hurt that he's a good-looking guy. The Prime Minister and his wife are also there. Hugs and beams to everyone. Great kudos for the PM and Mines Minster. The PM was warned to stay out of it, in case it all went wrong. But he insisted on doing what could be done for the miners. There is genuine joy at this pit head. You can feel it, even across the internet.

Recently appeared was one whose wife discovered he was having an affair when the mistress was also at the pit head. Oops! And what's more, he was greeted out of the capsule by - the mistress - described by Chile TV as his "esposa" (fiancee). There were big hugs from two young women (his daughters?) but another older woman (his wife?) was nowhere to be seen. This man may end up wishing he was still down the mine. Or maybe his wife will send him back down there again. Complete with "esposa."

Now appears Dario Segovia - no.20 - only 1/2 hour, definitely getting faster. And he gives his wife - edit, his sister - the biggest hug you have ever seen.

And here is the next man out. This operation is sooooo slick. Everything about how they deal with the families, the media, the photography. Getting quicker on th extractions, too. You'd think they have been doing all this for years. Thank God they haven't.

And here is Esteban Rojas, who proposed to his girlfriend of 25 yrs whilst buried in the mine. Nothing like a crisis to focus one's attention! He springs out of the capsule, kneels on the ground straight away - brushing aside his rescuers - prays and gives thanks. Only then does he leap to his feet to greet and hug his fiancee, the Minister for Mines, his rescuers and everyone else at the pit head.

Omas Reygadas (no 17) has just emerged, clutching his Bible. Joyous sounds all round. Hugged his adult son and daughter, then sank to his knees and raised his hands and waved his Bible in joyful thanks and praise.

15:37 Alfredo Cooper, the Chilean president's Protestant chaplain, described today's events as "a miracle", definitively so, as a drill bit had been deflected from its original route when it found the miners' refuge. :) :) :) Love the way so many of the miners prayed, crossed themselves, or otherwise gave thanks to God - both before and after being lifted out.

The Corps program was all about "the greatest leader is the greatest servant." All the time in Dishroom, cleaning out chicken pens, scrubbing toilets and such like was teaching us to be good servants. Therefore we could be better leaders. For some people doing such things might wel have been a real shock. However, most of us know how to do these things though not at industrial levels. We had to learn to follow directions (orders) before we could learn to give directions (orders). As it happens, most of us never learned enough to get to that stage. Only how to compel others to "follow" by the same oppressive measures.