Twinky

One of the "stashed away" is the head of the BOD, ennit? Rosie doesn't seem to have included either retirement or dying on her schedule. Nor does she look like scheduling either of these in, in the near future.

Interesting to read this section in different versions. NASB treats verse 4ff For it [authority] is a minister of God... Holman puts it this way, as "government": A Christian's Duties to the State 1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. Amplified starts "Let every person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities...those who resist will bring down judgment upon themselves [receiving the penalty due to them]. For civil authorities aer not a terror to [people of good conduct]." Definitely worth remarking that this is all in context of CIVIL AUTHORITY and not authority in the church, where these same verses are often used to beat congregations into submission. We have become so used to church hierarchies that this can be overlooked. These verses were written way before church and state became entangled and Christianity became the "state religion" some centuries later. And don't forget to consider 13:1ff in light of 12:21 - "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" - for, as 13:3 reminds us, rulers are not a terror to good works" (KJV) "not a cause of fear for good behavior (NASB) "Not a terror to [people of] good conduct, but to [those of] bad behavior." (Amp) Jesus lived under a regime that was considered vile and brutal by most of the oppressed inhabitants. He did everything without arguing and complaining. There's nothing to indicate that he opposed the regime as such; in fact, his behavior caused him to be held in respect by (eg) the centurion who sought help; and even by Pilate himself. We can also see passive resistance among the early Israelite women Puah and Shiprah who, whilst not protesting the order to kill male babies, just quietly ignored the order (Ex 1)...because they were subject to a higher moral law (of God). But Moses, who opposed with violence, was forced to flee.

Credit card???? So lemme get this right...it's okay to have debt for some things? Like entertaining each other? You're saying it was issued on TWI's own bank account? Not just from the toy bank that TWI operated? Not even a debit card - oh, no, that would mean that the holder had direct access to the bank TWI account. But - a credit card would allow TWI to maintain some control over the spending... "Oh, we didn't think that was a legit expense - so you can pay for it - not us." (edited for clarity)

I do hope that you & your family had a splendid "burn the chaff" bonfire with them thar goalposts.

Don't think spirits have "bodies" as such, though they can assume a form that looks solid and behaves like a human being's body. And spirits are discrete (Michael is not Gabriel; Elisha was surrounded by horses and chariots (and by implcation, riders and charioteers) that were identifiable but invisible to human eyes, 2 Kgs 6). Don't be misled by the word "body" in the text above. We have "bodies" of individuals, "responsible bodies" = statutory authorities and agencies, etc. We are the body of Christ...that same Christ who is seated in the heavenlies. But we are not all clones of an ancient Judean male. In our time, the word "entity" might sum it up better.

Okay, so I've been a bit busy and unable to review my thread for a while...talk quietly amongst yourselves...oh you have been doing. Interesting discussion, huh? Now this Bible college is teaching this: I am a spirit; I have a soul; I live in a body. Have always accepted that I have "holy spirit" or "spirit." And it's a temporary thing - because at some stage I will shed this rather wonderful body of mine and will become...something else. As the seed sown in the ground becomes something else. I have a (holy) spirit is rather different from I am a (holy) spirit Still pondering that one. Somehow it feels a thing that's completely different.

Just when you think you've heard it all, another level of soullessness raises its head... Such sad tales. Very sorry for all and especially the woman who had to have the termination. My beloved grandfather died while I lived continents away. Too long and far to get back. He had been very formative in my youth. He'd always been a giver - he'd befriended a person who subsequently broke into his house and robbed him; the shock finished him, really. He died soon after, in my mother's arms. He died old and full of days - but it was still unexpected. I only knew twiggies in this foreign country...not one person offered me a word of comfort.

I thought you were going to talk about something a little different, Polynesian, but actually it might well be along the same lines. You might remember that in all the stuff we had about the "renewed mind." Especially in the LCM version. Do you remember, Lovely Loy saw himself as leading us into the Promised Land - he was Joshua to VP's Moses. (Yes, he did - yes, he so saw himself - for the benefit of you pre-LCM folk out there :unsure:) We were to set boundaries in our own minds - principles that we would not be moved from. Joshua led people into the promised land/renewed mind and the people/we as individuals were to claim that fully. (LCM probably also said or implied that he should be the one who set the boundaries - the standards, teachings - that were to be our new boundaries - but I don't remember that. Just that we were to follow what we were taught - by TWI.) And LCM really blasted those who tried to drag us away - deprogrammers and the like - those who tried to draw us from the new boundaries - the Truth (gag) as taught by TWI / LCM - especially those who attempted to draw away Corps. I remember a very early - Corps Night?? - when he was ranting on about this - removing the boundaries from neighbor's lands. Although I don't remember all of the scriptures used, it was along the lines of the following - he would have produced some other backup, no doubt: And (he claimed) those who tried to remove us, persuade us away from the Truth of TWI, were trying to remove our landmarks. Around the same time, quite possibly in the same teaching, he went on about those who kidnapped others (for deprogramming) who ought at the least to be thrown in jail, and perhaps executed. And so, here we have an organization that has stolen us (lured us with false promises), removed all our boundaries - those ancient and moral bounds instilled by our parents - that stop us ill-treating one another. And then, having removed all our ancient boundaries, shifted us onto new ground, what then? Heck, TWI / LCM just shifted all the boundaries in the new ground, the renewed mind, the place where we now allegedly found ourselves. Moved the goalposts. So we had no firm anchor for our souls to keep us from the peril of TWI's ravages. And thus, we were blown around with every wind of doctrine issuing from LCM's ... orifices. Can't be setting boundaries, landmarks, not endorsed by Joshua - sorry, lovely Loy - now can we? C'mon, Poly...you know what absolutely awful disobedient followers we were. Too weak-minded to determine our own limits, so he had to do it for us. Again and again. This is one boundary or goalpost would not like to remove: Now that that unprofitable servant Loy has been drop-kicked into the outer darkness of Christianity, I won't be in a hurry to remove the boundary to bring him and his false doctrines back into my mind.

Heh heh, Chockfull, you're saying he was admitting his plagiarism!! Good one.

Thank you Greek, that would be nice.

I'm not even sure if I care any more about "God's job"... When I live my life according (as best I can manage) to Biblical principles, things work out better than if I "lean to my own understanding." > I didn't want to forgive those who hurt me..but I did...and hey presto, things became soooo much better. I was freer in my head and heart. > I might not like someone...but I treat them nicely according to Biblical principle, and hey presto, I learn great things about that person, why they were difficult to relate to initially, and find we've become friends. > I might not feel like doing something that I've signed up to do...but when I see how much it helps others and the great benefits to them...I can't wait till next time comes around. > When I've shown someone else what the Bible says about "living life" and see that person trying to live life that way - I see changes for the good - for that person and for those around him/her. And so on... Not just once or twice, but frequently. Part of "He can work when we work" is me getting involved. That helps him "do his job." How He gets on with his bit - is his business. We don't always know what the boss (at work) (the CEO in a multi-national company, say) (or even just our immediate boss!) is doing, but if we get on with our bit, the bigger picture comes together eventually. My daily e-scripture reaing today was Daniel 2:24-49 - the bit about the statue made of many metals but shattered by a rock...earthly kingdoms shattered by the kingdom of God. Not much of an answer, but I think i'll stick to doing my job as best I can. God can get on with his...whatever He needs to do....directing angels in the spiritual warfare against the devil or what-have-you. I think also we need to see God bigger...not just overseeing what goes on on this planet, but what might be going on on the other side of our solar system, on solar systems light-years away, on the other side of the universe.

Mint dish?? Have fun de-cluttering, WAI. Always an intriguing thing to do...amazing how much junk one accumulates. Good luck (?) with the move, too.

I could be 100% certain that that's not the kind of joint referred to! Seriously, though...anybody else got any comments?

Joints and marrow are completely different things. Joints are connections between bones, joined by cartilage and other connective tissues. The bones are strong and the connective tissues must be strong also - but flexible. Marrow, on the other hand, is a soggy sort of stuff that has no strength in itself but is utterly essential to life as we know it. It's contained inside bones One could separate a joint with a sharp implement (a sword). One could not separate marrow with a sword. A bone could be severed and the marrow scooped out. It's quite clear that both have different functions. But ideally, in a healthy body, neither should be separated from adjacent parts. Dunno if that takes this any further, but the biology lesson is interesting, LOL.

Yes, but could you fit a bed into it? A sort of fold-out couch maybe? Nah, not a motorbike but a motorcoach - so much better for blessing believers. Female ones, anyway.

Hey, lovely little movie, Dot, thanks for posting. Hats off to the star (?) Nick; not often you see an actor like him.

Why d'you say that, Froggie?

Thanks, JBarrax. I like the analogy of the "tapestry of truths." Clearly soul and spirit are different things. The context of this is faith (or belief) and "resting" in that faith. Ceasing our own works. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. So this is about motives - whether the fleshly "old man" or the spiritual "new man in Christ." I fail to see why, having divided them asunder, they should need to be reunited (as this teacher says). And yet, as JBarrax says...what is this soul doing in Revelation?? Interesting! Hebrews 4 At the end of the day, it really is all about love God, love your fellow human beings and not getting overly intellectual about it to the point of distraction. I will ponder this in the next few weeks until further teaching sessions on this topic (couple of weeks, I think) but welcome further suggestions, discussion, whatever. (Okay, let's see if the link works now...)

Thank; you, Broken Arrow.

's always been my view that God invented color in all its vividness, intensity, vibrancy...and to wear bright colors is to honor God. God could have made things in black and white...or green, yellow and red...but he chose a whole range of color to express himself and ... just for pleasure! How beautifully colored things are - that we cannot see - the workings inside animals and humans - fish at the very bottom of the sea - plants that have colors the human eye cannot see...but bees can. What playfulness!! What variety!! Always amazes me that churchmen dress traditionally in long BLACK robes. Black the color of darkness. All the best with your book, Spec.

Thanks, Roy, but not sure that helps.

This does not relate directly to TWI teachings. I've been attending a wannabe Bible school in my town – just one evening a week. Tonight included a 1-hour session (first of several) entitled Spirit Soul and Body. Most of this session ran along lines that followed TWI teaching on the topic. (Frankly, I was amazed because I haven't found many non-Wayfers who have much concept of "spirit" or they think it is synonymous with "soul".) Anyway, this man's teaching included the following: "Spirit" is the same as "heart" – "when the Bible speaks of the heart, it is speaking of the spirit…In the NT, wherever the word heart is used, substitute the word spirit and you will get a clearer picture of what is being said." 2 Cor 5:17 Although our spirit is perfect and does not need to be saved, our soul does (Jas 1:18-21). And "man's soul is saved when his mind is renewed [by effort from the Christian, not by God's efforts] with the Word of God. It is the Word of God that saves our souls, renews our mind and restores our soul." After the session was over, I asked him what the purpose of saving the soul might, in his view, be. His view is that the spirit and the soul become melded together, inseparable, and they go on together after death of the body. (This is to be developed in future teachings.) Finally: Feelings are the voice of the body; Reason is the voice of the soul (or mind); Conscience is the voice of the spirit (again, this will be developed in future teachings). And I asked, if conscience is the voice of the spirit, how does he reconcile that with getting the spirit when we get born again? Because plenty of people have consciences and they wouldn't class themselves as Christians. His answer is that we are all born with a "degenerate spirit." As this is the topic of a future teaching, I don't know much about this viewpoint – don't know if he thinks the degenerate spirit is rehabilitated, replaced, or what. Maybe – but maybe not – this degenerate spirit is what VPW called "the spirit of man" – as being different from [the gift of] holy spirit that we get at the new birth. So, really, this thread has three tracks: 1. Are "spirit" and "heart" the same, or at least similar? 2. Views on "spirit" and "soul" becoming one? 3. Views on this degenerate spirit that we're supposed to have? I'm not dismissing (bits of) these ideas – but not taking them hook line and sinker either. Healthy suspicion is called for, I think. Search the scriptures to see whether these things are so. And also enquire of the "research team" of the Café, whose disparate views are always interesting.

Still but yeah, BA, every so often there is a season of anti-slavery films and at Greenbelt (Christian Festival) a couple of years ago, the principal act on Sat evg was promoting awareness of anti-trafficking. Here's a link: Stop the Traffik But everyday there are ethical choices to make, about what we purchase, use, enjoy, do - or don't do. Sometimes those are not easy choices. It was Christians - mostly Quakers, some Anglicans - including Wilberforce, a Christian who was a politician - who finally brought the slave trade to an end via legislation in Parliament. It still took years to have full effect. And in the US you had outright civil war about it - and still see effects of that now. Slavery history website Maybe some of those who are virtual slaves in sweat shops, tea plantations, building sites, mines...are also fellow Christians... or maybe not. Do you have a Fairtrade equivalent in the US? Fairtrade The choices we make may affect the future a long way ahead - way beyond our lifetimes - try and live responsibly towards your fellow man...on the other side of the planet. Being a New Dynamic Church means thinking things through for today - not pretending we're the first century church. We can take the best of sharing in our communities - but not limit our community boundary to just our immediate environment. Let's not forget that the first century new dynamic church looked forward expectantly to the return of Christ, and used that as a yardstick for their daily actions. I'll get off the soap box now.

Didn't the great VP also say, "Every generation must discover the Word for itself"? Meaning, you have to discover the Word (gag) for yourself. It has to fit in your "day and time". >>No point nowadays in expecting a person to walk in front of a motor vehicle with a red flag - but the issue of "how fast is too fast?" remains for vehicles today. >>No point in ignoring newer things, like, say, medical research on animals and pretending it doesn't exist - but how how do you treat the animals otherwise? >>No point in ignoring medical science that keeps people alive from diseases that would have killed them a mere couple of decades ago - but when is enough medical intervention enough? >>How do we react to "slavery" today? Not people tranported across the world in ships - but those in their home countries, who work in sweat shops in appalling conditions without safety features that would be expected in factories in our countries - so that we can wear ultra-cheap clothing? For an ancient book, the Bible's really quite amazing what of today's "issues" it refers to and has something to say about. And knowing how to apply those principles - is what makes the "new dynamic church" - not digging out some meaning of a Greek word. I'm trying now, to think of any instance where the Way did actually seek to apply principles to issues of Life now other than to try to compel "obedience". Hmm. Maybe a separate thread.... People and circumstances don't really change a great deal but the peripherals do. The moral issues remain the same, just what they apply to, and how.

Ah jeez...just read this thread. Echoes of all that I also went through. The early 90s under LCM was a particularly cruel time. Thank God I found this place. Think I'd still be a basket case otherwise. 'bout the only thing I'd disagree with on this thread is where someone said, once they kick you out, the locust (TWI) can't steal any more years. Well if they've stolen enough of your ability to think, your self-esteem, your confidence in God, in life, in ... everything....so that you can't hardly move - they're still stealing your years. Still being locusts. What kills locusts? I found this on the net: What kills locusts ("Biological locust sprays ...are a solution for destroying locusts on organic properties and in national parks. They work by killing locusts with spores from a fungus, which grows inside the insect.") One hopes that the dissent from within will soon kill off the remains of that locust in NK. Waiter, pass the locust spray!!!