Twinky

Lots of things are wrong in God's eyes. Lust, greed, envy, adultery. Splitting up marriages. Abusing children. Pride, arrogance, lording it over God's people - over anybody. Bullying and taking advantage. Bribes. Or just plain not honoring and loving God with all your heart. Let him that is without sin cast the first stone. My life isn't perfect either. You wouldn't have to look too deeply to see the bits that are less than what God would like to see. But I do my best. I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather people found a secure and loving relationship that helped them reach their maximum potential as human beings - than condemn them. There is more to a person than their sexuality. Doesn't mean I like what they do. It does mean that I can view them with compassion and be pleased that they can love and be loved.. As, in the same way, I endeavor to have compassion on those who fall short in other ways...and that's sometimes harder. I do not forget that flagrant homosexuals were kinder to me than my so-called "Christian" brethren when I was M&A'd. If I were God (ha ha), I know which ones I'd be angrier at. Thanks for posting the words of this wise rabbi, Abigail.

Welcome, LoveOneAnother. This is your first post, so - Welcome to the Cafe. You don't need to be afraid to speak up here. And you can pose any question you like and let your thoughts wander where they will. Would you care to expand your question a little? Which part of your question is important to you? Is it rhetorical ("how do you know")? Or a discussion of "the all truth"? Or something else, perhaps?

Great preaching/teaching, Bowtwi. How some love to harbor grudges (unforgiveness). What a waste of time and effort. Let it go, and travel light. Philippians 4:8 American Standard Version Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. If you do, you won't have time to bear grudges or be unforgiving.

Bowtwi, that's wonderful, awesome.. God knew what he was doing when he prompted you to move to that town. You thought you were doing this - but his plan was something else!!! The church sounds tremendous and very healing. What a lovely man the pastor sounds like. Many of the congregation wouldn't comprehend what you went through, but so what, they just lived what they know to live. Knowing, really knowing, the love of God - is what has truly set you free. Go and grow, girl!! Thanks for sharing this.

Hey, just joking around, WG, no offence meant. It's a far cry from Florida sunshine. In Ohio, I found myself on Snow Clearance. Not so much fun at 5am when dragged out of a warm Founders Hall bed. Was there a big Snow Clearance crew at Gunnison, first thing in the morning (5am) - or did that wait till a bit later in the day (after breakfast)? What happened to the hosses and such?

I was going to suggest watching these with the sound turned off, brainfixed. You've beaten me to it. Rest of you, see if you can guess what they're singing about. Socks, I like Hillsong too. Catchy songs, passionately written, sung and performed. I also like Sons of Korah, who set the psalms to modern music. Here's and Psalm 125. They do some good guitar/stringed instrument work. If you like the link, try YouTube - there's stacks of their music w/videos. Do these guys look like they're having fun? :) :) Does the audience seem enthusiastic? I find these catchy tunes stick in my head (and the words, too). I'm glad to say that a lot of Way Prods songs have...evaporated. I did rather like some of those great songs that got banned after one of the exoduses. Some of those songs I still remember.

WG, you have no sense of fun. You don't like snowmen, snowballs, skiing? Where were they doing the skiing anyway? On that hill that's covered by sage brush, behind the camp? I remember standing out first thing in the morning on the top of the steps of one of those two storey log cabins - looking out over the length of the camp to some snow capped mountains on the horizon, and thinking, this is bliss. For some reason, there were hardly any other WC there - younger Corps arrived a couple of days later. But for a while - it was my private bliss. It was release from my prison of HQ. Sorry you didn't like your time there, OS, and that you found it like a prison.

That was, I think, from an "open concert" to which locals were invited. If they were hoping to win people by the brilliance of the performances, they'd probably have been rather disappointed. They'd most likely have left thinking, what was that? Loosen up! WG, you could explore their website direct...heh heh.

I posted something else too. Gunnison really does look superb. I never saw it in winter, only in spring for Family Camps. It was lovely then, too. I enjoyed my stay there, even though it was very busy and hard (fun) work. Lotsa happy memories.

Here are two songs from the TWI Fall Concert 2009. What you might notice is the absolutely rigidity of the singers' bodies. No hand movements, no swaying to the side - absolutely perfectly still. Their physical demeanor is so at odds with the jolly bouciness of the songs. As also is the jolly bounciness of whoever is conducting the singers. Perhaps the singers are so still so as not to distract from his "dancing." It struck me that it must be very hard - and joyless - to stay so very still - whilst maintaining a big smile on the face. Rejoice This is our Joy And it also struck me that this is Biblical rejoicing: And Michal was struck with barrenness, because she despised those who wholeheartedly rejoiced in God. Perhaps there's a lesson there. TWI, loosen up! Allow people to enjoy rejoicing!!! Don't choreograph so rigidly, either in making everyone stand still, or to "dance" in a very structured way. How long before TWI insists this link gets removed?

Thought some of you might enjoy this. Lovely location. This looks like fun - if a lot of work for Snow Patrol.

Broken Arrow, I find that a very entertaining thought.

Debt...what they say we "not members" owe them. Well, we owe God, but as he has no hands but our hands ... we can jolly well hand over the money to TWI. But what about their debt to us? We "owe" them money because of the "increase" we have acquired. As TWI might have it - we have that increase because of the Word they've taught us. I'm wondering if we paid in advance. Aren't they in debt to us? Isn't it about time TWI started teaching some honest "Word"? Then, maybe, everyone would benefit.

I think back on the time I was in. And the "lost years" - the time after I'd been kicked out and was in deep depression and incapable of sustaining anything. Incapable of returning to my pre-TWI career, making any decision or anything. The burden of guilt laid on me in TWI-2 was vile. I've missed out in marriage, in opportunities to bear children, financially, professionally. I was ... quite a nice person before. I became difficult; and after getting tossed out like a used diaper, became even more difficult to be around. Meltdown. Now I think of what I have gained. A deeper understanding of reaching out to others; of being compassionate, non-judgmental, of seeing the other side, and of a richer relationship with God, who has always been there for me, even when I was at my utmost lowest - a state of mind I would not wish on the person I hated most. I think I've been into parts of my mind that I wouldn't have ventured into before. And I think I'm a better, nicer, more caring person than I was before. TWI is, without doubt, a cost. But having paid the price (and we all have!) what to do with what you got? Make something positive out of it. !!! If nothing else - it shows you how NOT to live life; what to be wary of; how easily you could become like that bully in TWI. It gives you something to fight against and something to fight for. And I stilll say: some of the most awesomely wonderful people I've ever met have been ex-Way people, because of their genuine passion for the things of God and their efforts to live life in a Godly way.

Kicked themselves out?? That fits really well with "mark and avoid."

Beep beep beep! Escape, avoid, get away. Warning warning warning!!! This is what's a snare, a debt. In God's eyes, anyway. Puts someone at enormous risk - because the surety has no control over the actions of the person he is surety for - and whether the assured will fulfil his obligations. However, to take out a like debt in one's own name - leaves one with control and the responsibility to fulfil one's obligations. Of course, TWI could fudge this one by saying - it's not a debt for a "friend" but for a relative, and different things come into play. Ah no. No, no!! Alternatively, in TWI-think, maybe this could be extended - to cover not being surety for anyone at all. That'd be more TWI's style. Going further than the written words. But note this: See? We're not to be guarantors, or sureties. So all those leaders who got people (even family) to guarantee loans were inciting others to go against God's plan. It's so shirking of personal responsibility - to shove the real burden, the risk, of a debt off onto someone else. Who would do that to someone they loved? Especially if it might put the surety's own home at risk!! And don't think these debts aren't called in - nor that the assured always meets the payments. Too often, the beneficiary (the assured one) does default. And the guarantor faces serious problems. It happens.

Famous last words, perhaps? (I did wonder if this should be in Just Plain Silly)

I don't think Kristin would agree with you about it being a novel.

Let's not forget that "Easter" comes from Astarte, a pagan goddess. That's a name they didn't try to change. "Wonderful" would be okay because "Signs, miracles and wonders" are supposed to follow believers. Sonday Nissiday (Jehovah-nissi, =banner) Jirahday (Jehovah-jireh, =provider) Veepday (VPW -day - in celebration of Corps teachings usually being on Wednesday) Timday (named after Timothy, Paul's great follower Rohiday (rohi=shepherd, Ps 23) Shalomday (peace and something equating a day off) Of which I've just found 42, yes 42 Jehovah-names (where TWI has taught the spiritual perfection of 7). Ah well. 7x6=42, spiritual perfection on man?? Absolutely certain this was the reason. Help you to keep your mind going along the same track, way of thinking. Keep your hind legs trackin' with your front legs, as that man said. It just might not be PFAL if you "put it into your own words" by adding a word, subtracting a word...or daringly substituting a word...pretty soon you don't have the word of PFAL at all. And it's lazy. So very lazy, to be unable to give anything a fresh look. To draw something new out of a familiar passage in the Bible. To make you really think beyond what you already know. Because that way, you know that you now that you know just what the Bible says.

Or actually it could be :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: real laughable

heh heh heh heh heh oir maybe that should be :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: and then some.

You can be sure it'll be the faithful household's fault when she does die. Now if only one of the faithful household would push her off the OSC or baptize her for half an hour in the "Jordan".... (Just joking around, WayGB)

"No debt" policy was in earlier than you say, Oak. I know in the mid-80s people who wouldn't use a credit card unless they could pay it off immediately (next day) - because of the "owe no man anything" teaching. No debt came in very heavy about 1992, latest 1993. Probably fulminations before that. As to home mortgages, VPW started it off, really. There was a mortgage over ?Emporia? and he didn't like it, said it was wasteful of ABS and it was always something that money had to be found for first and foremost because of the threat of foreclosure if the mortgage wasn't paid. When the mortgage was paid off, the mortgage deed was (I understand) cut up into tiny pieces and given out to Wayfers. (I know someone who had a fragment taped inside his Bible, to remind him not to get into debt.) However, at that particular time, "debt" and the ban on it didn't extend to home mortgages, or at least, not with the viciousness that LCM managed to attach to it. LCM managed to make the whole thing go completely mad. He might have thought a lot different if he'd had to pay a commercial rent on that Chalet.

I'd say Paul is exhorting people to live peaceably in their environment. Put up with whatever governmental organization there is. Behave decently to all - always, everything within the concept of behaving decently. What would be the flip side? If everyone rejected their civil governments, there would be anarchy, chaos, people fighting people, every man for himself. And that certainly isn't Godly. Education, health services, roads, safety of food supplies, water supplies, sewerage, and heaps of other things probably wouldn't get done, or done so efficiently. You only have to look at countries where civil government is very poor or has broken down to see the result. Somalia, for example, hasn't had a government for over 20 years. A fine culture has broken down to piracy. Somalia Countries might not be able to wage war against other countries ... but then, they couldn't defend themselves easily either. So on balance, even a not-very-good government is better than no government at all.

Oak, there are enough debt threads already Perhaps you might like to revive one of those - give a bigger history, including from some who no longer post here. ClayJay, didn't realize it was so long ago. Unfortunately I was in rez in the early 90s. It was horrible. I mean, LCM and his tirades were horrible. And the atmosphere was oppressive. But I met some fine God-hearted people, most of whom got kicked out or crushed. When I got out, I did do my best but I also know I was too hard on some people, not intending to be mean, but "tough love" - even though that really cut across the grain for me. Because "tough love" was how I'd learned "to receive." I'm still looking for some people, to apologize.