Twinky

The second article on the Frontal Cortex is interesting. A wonderful example of this kind of thinking, right now, is Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian PM, who simply cannot understand why people are making a fuss about him (how old is he? 60s? more?) spending lots of time with young women - very young women - underage females. He silences all opposition and seems to be Teflon-coated...until the last day or two (LOL). What's bizarre is that he is so popular. I can only think that he is living the "fantasy" that many Italian men would like to live. He's the Alpha "lad" and they wish they were he. The female Italians don't seem so keen on him, however. Wonder why? :blink:

The First Century Church... ...was undoubtedly set up with each fellowship being self-governing, being as the fellowships were so far apart. Though with advice available where necessary and to point out obvious errors (like incest in the Corinthian church) ...was characterized by sharing what they had with each other - that's what impressed outsiders and won converts ...respected local leaders, and worked hard to ensure that believers lived and worked in peace with one another Compare and contrast.

"Reduce vandalism"...two thoughts: if TWI didn't make itself so obnixious locally, perhaps it wouldn't have suffered vandalism. It would be interesting to know how much "vandalism" other farms and properties in the same neighborhood suffered Formation of a private police force is hardly "bless those that persecute you" or turning the other cheek. (Maybe property protection was "justified" by protecting the ABS the believers had contributed) "Grant them access to nationwide police records"...Would this be used against alleged vandals? Probably all of whom were known locally. Or would it have been used against the believers? Knowing the abuse that took place with known information (like "letters of apology" and "Birth to Corps papers", how much worse and controlling would the organization be, if they had access to such sensitive Police information? Nationally? Knowledge of one's own and one's family's past criminal history would be passed off as "revelation" and would be used for fuelling all sorts of "possession" allegations. What a scary thought.

Check out the photos - there's a bit called "Talking with Shirley" or some such. Such nice trailer homes in the background! 20% more of zero - is still zero.

VPW isn't anything like the epitome of evil. He was just a nasty old man who abused God and God's people. Not the first, not the last. VPW was not the epitome of "good" either - he was a long long loooonnnnggg way from that. He should at least have had some good habits that would make him a recognizable role model. VPW was fond of saying that he wasn't judging - it was God judging, by the standards set in His Word. Therefore, it behooves us to "line up our actions with the Word." (I paraphrase slightly, I can't remember the exact words but that was the tenor.) That's a fine thing to say, and a fine thing to do. But it's not what VPW did. All prophets, all people with a "gift ministry" - all Christians - are human beings, with faults, egos, their own natural lusts - which draw them away from God. We are vessels of clay. We all do things wrong. But most Christians will eventually get back to thinking, I'm wrong here - I'm not doing what God says. I've sinned against God and man. They may well notice that somehow things just aren't going so well with them. God is not "working with them" any more. And when they show a little humility and repent of their "off" behavior, forgiveness is theirs and they get a clean slate to start over again with. They get to see God working within them again. Now if one persistently does what is clearly - clearly - explicitly - said to be wrong - how on earth can one claim to have a decent relationship with God? How, if one flagrantly ignores the written word, can one expect, firstly, to hear a non-written word from God; and secondly, to be able to impart that accurately to others? Why on earth should God speak as to a prophet, to one who wilfully closes his ears and eyes to what is plainly in front of his nose (well, it would be if he bothered to open his Bible)? Both OT and NT say - don't lie. Both OT and NT say - don't steal, don't defraud. Both OT and NT say - no adultery. Both OT and NT say - don't covet what others have. (I could make a long list here.) Be ye holy, for I am holy. (Many places, OT and NT; check out 1 and 2 Peter) What communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? (2 Cor 6) All fail, all fall short of the glory of God. But some upon realizing where they have fallen short - apologize, and get back on track. Perfection is neither expected nor demanded. A genuine effort to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength - that is to be expected. Why would God choose a "prophet" - a "pastor" - a "teacher" (worse, "The Teacher") - who persistently ignored him over decades - in fact, figuratively spat in his face? And one who was more a prophet, pastor or teacher of Belial, than of the true God?

Reading a bit more about Jim Jones brought Tim Stoen to light. His Wikipedia entry has some interesting remarks about tactics used by JJ, the writing of letters, confessions and affidavits, and how they were used against the authors. That was a common TWI tactic. Tim Stoen

Koresh has an interesting life history: Koresh Sounds like a crackpot from the get-go. Funny how all these cult leaders think that women belong to them: "... also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined his cult. He then had exclusive sexual access to the women" including under-age females. As for Jim Jones: "While Jones banned sex among Temple members outside of marriage, he himself voraciously engaged in sexual relations with both male and female Temple members.[/url] Jones, however, claimed that he detested engaging in homosexual activity and did so only for the male temple adherents' own good, purportedly to connect them symbolically with him (Jones)" - notwithstanding he had an earlier police record for homosexual activity. Jones Ain't life fun....

Socrates: in VP & Me, LCM made claims that he'd sit outside the motorcoach door, just waiting for VP - so that he could be ready to learn from him. Of course, then, we all thought that that meant he was keen to learn the Word from VP. Just wondering now if it meant something altogether more sinister. Waiting to learn about how to assault women? Waiting to abuse the same women? Guarding the motorcoach from interruption by others?

:wacko: (why don't we have a "vomit" icon in the emoticons?) Excie, you do come out with some awful things. I'd like to say I didn't believe you...but... :(

Waysider, I wonder if that's a variant of Stockholm syndrome - identifying with one's captors. In the cases you mention - the people have to identify with the one who ripped them off, so as to preserve some shred of their own self-esteem - they simply can't admit they made such a stupid mistake so they have to think that the person who ripped them off isn't a fraudster but has a genuine product.

Kit, I do understand that your friend was trampled over and her gift disparaged. Such an ungracious response. I've a recollection of LCM doing things like that, too, but can't recall any specifics. Doing my best to forget. This demand for handmade gifts, cards, etc. Making them could occupy hours of time. Even just finding the right shop-bought gift could take a long time. Hmm. Is that best "stewardship" of time? When believers could be "reaching out with the Word"? Or is it showing undue respect (cough) to leadership? I don't see Jesus accepting many "special" gifts though clearly they did have some monetary donations. I certanly don't see him demanding "gifts." I don't see Paul and the others with him accepting many gifts; rather, they collected gifts to give to others. That should settle it!

Didn't he change it, or at least it became God said it That settles it I believe it Because it's settled, whether anyone believes it or not. But I can also see your view, that it settles you. Anyways, I'm going to a sort of Bible school one evening a week. Interesting to consider their teaching. So much is similar to what TWI teaches/taught (not all). It's interesting that some of the same little catchphrases and buzz phrases are trotted out. Almost comforting, in a way, to know that not all of PFAL was "out of it." Last night, as an incidental, the tutor got into the importance of the first usage of a word or expression. Of course, it wasn't PFAL per se that was the problem. It was the PI that VWP loaded onto PFAL and the subtle and not-so-subtle self-glorification. And the minimising of the accomplishments of Jesus the Christ by theological arguments. And the huge mismatch between doctrine and practise.

There were more than two, mstar1. It's just that there were only two who went to law about it. And not actually for criminal charges of rape, either. There were. as I understand it, far more victims, women, who for whatever reason and against their better judgment "submitted" to LCM. W@yne Cl@app had confronted LCM over a period of years about his activities with women. It's obvious from his MO that he was well practiced. Neither of the assaults you mention was the work of a "beginner." And also: he learned well at VPW's ... feet. Who's to say he didn't help VPW and is therefore a rapist by procuring women for VPW, too, knowing what VPW would do?

Interesting that Johniam thinks, without any substantiation, to throw mud at Jim D00p (about whom I've never heard anything vile) yet Johniam also refuses to accept the vileness that so permeated all of VPW's life, which is hevily attested to on this forum. And Johiam - before you even think about it - If you want to libel D00p, please start your own thread and do not continue your argument on this one. I will ask the mods to remove any such posts from this thread.

Pharaoh-WI won't, can't, let the people go. They're already in the Promised Land, doncha know?

Far too much time, by all reports. But perhaps all that "groping" is why there was never any other proper plan? (Sorry for the slight derail. It was irresistable.)

Geisha, thanks for the link. I like considering different poitns of view. It challenges me to think about what I really think. Always better to see things not merely two-dimensional. Broken Arrow, same thought came to me too. I don't think he was that deliberate, but he was out for what he could get. And when he saw a chance, he grabbed it and accumulated it to his "empire." Opportunist, more than a careful planner. In his warped way, probably thought that God had blessed him with that opportunity. But it was all "take" and no "give." Interesting you mention Jim D00p. I never heard of the man until I came here, but he seems to have "good press." Would you call him an apostle, a pastor, or any of these other things? A prophet, even?

Wow, it didn't take johniam long to drag this thread waaaay off track. Anyone want to continue this thread and just quietly ignore john, leave him quietly in the corner muttering into his beer?

Great posts, WW, skyrider, geisha. Yes, that extra stuff in 1 Cor 12 never got talked about. I think some versions talk about the gift of administration - which seems a little weird, but then again, God is a God of organization not chaos. If VPW had latched onto that, no telling who could have had the "gift of administration" bestowed upon them (gulp). I find myself wondering if I would really recognize any one of these ministries if I saw it as a "stand-alone." I fear I have become too suspicious. Maybe I expect too much? But I do know, as Geisha says, that people manifesting these attributes are everywhere, in all sorts of roles. And each of us can switch between the roles, some roles more successfully than others, to provide (minister) help, guidance and succor wherever needed (thank God).

Intermediate class. Yes, that might be more appropriate. Yep, mstar1, I think it was just an excuse to be obnoxious and really not bother bringing himself back into line. Broken Arrow, very interesting what you say. Rosie...a prophet(ess). Worse, LCM as an apostle. I can honestly say that I haven't come across this in the Christians that I've met who were never to do with the Way. n the contrary, I have met ministers who acknowledge that they aren't good at (...) and appoint others to help them with that side of things. My former vicar, now gone to a different church, was a great teacher and visionary in what he wanted to achieve with the church, but when it came to the pastoral side...not so empathetic. But he did have a great associate minister who made the congregation as individuals feel very valued. So it worked well. When I come to think of it, there are few at TWI that I'd have gone to willingly for pastoral care whilst in rez. I had no expectation that things would remain confidential, or that difficulties would be dealt with kindly and empathetically. Who, in fact, would you describe as having the gift ministry of a "pastor"? Anyone? Or any other gift ministry, come to that? Prophets included. Has there ever been one genuine prophesy that has come to pass? (yet?) That couldn't have been worked out from newspaper reports?

Don't I remember VP saying this - must have been in PFAL? He was referring then to OT prophets. Because the OT prophets spoke out boldly, upset the local hierarchies, and weren't afraid to be obnoxious and persecuted. In fact, that added to their integrity. Those guys really stood up for what they believed in! Yep. VP fancied himself as a prophet (as well presumably, as The Teacher). He sure had all them thar gift ministries - in abundance. Apostle - brought us new light - showed us how to live the way the church hadn't lived since the first century. Prophet - always speaking forth so boldly and taking a stand. All that persecution he suffered, just because of his bold stand. Evangelist - and not just an evangelist, either, but the leader of a whole mass of evangelists (WOWs). Pastor - he certainly showed some women how much he cared (gag). Teacher - his self-chosen moniker. Did he ever call himself a "prophet"? Or just one who "speaks for and on behalf of God"? And while we're about it - which of these might be applied to Lovely Loy? I guess he must have fancied himself as Teacher Mk II but I'm not sure if I ever heard him refer to his own "gift ministry". And he certainly wasn't a gifted dancer. (Oh no no no, that's not a gift ministry anyway). And Rosie? Has she the gift ministry of Teacher Mk III? She was supposed to be "healing" wasn't she? So would that mean she had the GM of a Pastor? Haven preserve us from this talentless lot. I do mean this as a serious topic...but I can imagine it might very quickly turn into something else.

Great Post, T-Bone. Obergrown weeds, LOL. I think for many of us here - the learning happened AFTER we left TWI - when we worked out "what it is, and what it is not." Among other things, we here have learned to be wary. To "prove [test] all things." And, hopefully, having been hurt, and having hurt many along the way, we have also learned how to treat people compassionately and avoid causing further hurt to others. Soooo glad I'm out. I just spend a few moments thinking about what sort of person I might have become had I still been in...not at all a pretty sight. It was painful being cast out and M&A'd...but really, it was a big favor. I had no plans to leave voluntarily. Even though those red flags were flying thicker and more vigorously than ever. Them there weeds sure obscured the view.

True, Bolshevik, emergency situations do require someone to take overall charge, to avoid confusion and duplication. There weren't really emergencies in the Way except of their own manufacture. People, especially in-rez Corps, were oppressed very badly and sometimes cracked or got into highly stressed conditions. Then it became an "emergency" with either everyone buzzing round, or more face-meltings; maybe both. Very little idea of not squashing people into a particular mold or letting them become "transformed" at their own rate. Handling people with a lighter touch has got to be better. "Trust is earned." LCM used to say that a lot. Usually after a face-melting followed by a humiliating grovel back into favor. Or some Corps person who had been put "on probation" for a while - so that they could "earn" trust again. In fact, "earning trust" became almost another weapon exercized by leadership against their minions. i can think of one of my Corps bros who did something fairly inoffensive "wrong"; after a face-melting and then "grace" from LCM, has so "earned trust" that he is now (or was) a high-up leader and reports of him that I've seen here show him to have become a serious abuser in his own right. In other words, he has become a clone. But this is a two-way street, isn't it? We were required to trust leadership. After all, they'd already proved themselves - to very top leadership. There was an expectation that all Corps were to be trusted and had earned that trust and respect. Many of them were in fact worthy of the trust. Regrettably there were also abusers who were Corps, people who defiled the trust by the way they treated spouses, children, and twiggies. Cloning is such an abuse of God. Because he formed us individually. Gave us abilities and talents and skills that surely he would like us to use. Because each one of us can outreach to different communities, people, individuals. What works for Freddie to hear the word won't work for Freda. Proverbs says in two places that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" and in a further place, that "in the multitude of counsellors [purposes] are established." That means listening to different voices, different opinions. Different views. Listening to those makes a team strong, not weak. 1 Kings 22 records a very interesting interchange - Ahab the king of Israel has all his prophets (yes-men) supporting his plan of action. Jehoshaphat king of Judah isn't convinced and calls for the one man that he knows will say different ("There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil.") Micaiah wasn't a yes-man so wasn't on the team. Ahab didn't listen to Micaiah's advice (prophecy) - and got himself killed. Ahab's death was prophesied long before...but did it have to happen them? Had Ahab heeded the advice of the non-clone...he might have lived another day. It's kind of interesting to think of that, and "leader-clone teams" in light of the current situation in the middle East (not that I want to take this into politics or anything) where moderate voices have been quashed and dictators have accreted power. Now there is significant unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and other like countries. Who knows where next? Because these leaders don't listen to the voices of moderates who advise that the general populace shouldn't be treated in oppressive ways.

Raf! At it again...! Congratulations, hope everything goes well.

I always thought that was something from the novel "The Carpetbaggers." Notice (as usual with VPW) the lack of anything specific. Nowhere mentioned by name. Musta been written on that piece of paper that proved that Jesus was inducted into the synagogue a year early "because of his supposed illegitimacy."