Twinky

The church that I go to more or less regularly has had a little trouble lately, with the vicar and the senior person responsible for pastoral care having had some problems. The congregation is mightily upset and somewhat divided in opinions towards the parties concerned, the church council, and in some cases each other. A well-respected outside "church consultant and trainer" has been brought in to assess the situation and make recommendations. His report has just been released to the church council which has in turn released it to the congregation with the author's consent. The consultant addresses recruitment and staffing issues and includes these memorable sentences: "1.4 ...If you cans ee that there could be staff personality clashes, this is no reason for not appointing (any staff team needs a variety of people) but it is a reason for being ready to put in external enabling in some form to prevent problems arising. 4.4 ...Strong teams have different personalities on them - weak teams are clones of the leader. That means that strong teams are not easy to run..." (emphasis mine) That phrase just leapt out at me. For what did WC training end up doing, but turning us into clones of VPW or LCM? All under the guise of being "imitators" of our leaders. The great strengths of individuals - our God-given strengths - were never allowed to flourish and any alternative idea, thought, expression or action that wasn't exactly back-legs-trackin'-with-the-front-legs was ruthlessly quashed. And therein lay seeds of the weakness that has caused the collapse of TWI instead of the demanded Rise and Expansion. I wondered how others of you feel about your church leadership (if you go to church) and the wider application to other teams which may affect you - at work, or teams that you participate in.

You got some great things going in your life. As did (and do) many of us who post regularly. If it had been all bad - no-one would have stayed around! You seem to have left before things got really bizarre under the mighty LCM. Live long and prosper...you and your loving family.

Well done, John. Glad you got to share your talent. Funny about all those "old" songs. My best friend, now 50, sometimes hears some "new" song on the car radio or TV or some such, and can sing along with it. Her mid-teenage daughter looks at her and says, "Mum, you know the words!" "Yes, daughter," says friend. "I knew this song first time round." This has happened quite a lot of times. Some good stuff around in the 60s and 70s. I can't see much of today's music, rap, whatever, having the same 30 year shelf life. But then, my parents weren't convinced about "pop" music and Beatles and Rolling Stones and the rest, either.

"What does this have to do with the topic?" Yes, John, what does it have to do with the topic? "This topic has life of its own." You have deflected it so that you hope no-one is looking at your idol, VPW. "BTW, did anybody read the REST of my email? I made my point well enough to get it printed." Your point really was to evade addressing the point. "The point being that we live in a male bashing culture..." The point being, Was VPW a good man?

"I meant, turn to the other left."

Was VPW a good man? This still needs to be debated???? The apostle Paul beseeched people to be followers of him, as he was of Christ. To imitate his lifestyle. But with a view to looking at Christ, not at Paul. For those who consider VPW a good man, is he your role model? Do you copy his behavior? If you're male, do you touch women not your wife? Do you go around privately on motor vehicles with women not your wife? Do you engage in sexual contact with them? Do you think it's okay to share other men's wives? Is it okay to share your own wife with other men? If you're female, do you touch men not your husband? Do you go around privately on motor vehicles with men not your husband? Do you engage in sexual contact with them? Do you think it's okay to share other women's husbands? Is it okay to share your own husband with other women? Do you do things that you forbid others to do...you enjoy an alcoholic drink but condemn others for drinking less than you? Do you smoke, but castigate others who do? Maybe a killer question: If VPW (at any age) had asked you to give him private time alone with your teenage daughter, or to make a private visit with your wife from which you were specifically excluded? What if he'd ordered you to give him private time with your wife? Or kept coming round when he knew you were out? - Would you be happy with that? Truly? No shadow of doubt? Or, having heard what you had heard, would you want to "risk it"? There's a female poster here who ran far far away when a VPW-lookalike looked upon her daughter...she knew what that meant. If VPW is not your role model - WHY NOT? If he is such a good man 'n all.

Of course TWI will claim it as a victory. Which is Way double-speak for a total f-up. Mr Linder could retire gracefully (?) to his new real estate business. Or he could open a FB account under a fake name and join the new FB site. Who'd know? And if anybody knew - would anybody care? What we say, we say in the daylight, not sneakily behind doors. Though for various reasons, some choose to say behind screen names.

I think some members of the Cafe say they are witches. It would be interesting to see their perspective on this topic. The witchcraft trials were probably nothing more than males protecting their hierarchical status. The women were often just traditional healers with the skill of knowing what local herbs could be used to treat common illnesses, thus challenging the medical profession (such as it was) which was all male and full of not very helpful "remedies."

In English, please, Bramble

I like what Broken Arrow says, about "integrity" having the sense of ability to withstand pressure, the breaking point, etc. ...Didn't Wierwille also say, "The scriptures cannot be broken"? Therefore, in that sense, the integrity of the Word was never at stake, as the Word will (he also said) never reach breaking point. Word Salad...interesting description.

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft ... says the Bible. A favorite accusation of TWI is to accuse others of rebellion, which is "as the sin of witchcraft" - said darkly and having taught us that witches should be put to death. "Watch out, then, or you become even more worthy of death!" goes the hidden agenda. At no time did I ever hear an explanation of what "witchcraft" was - there was, of course, the "junk table" at the adv class, which we were not encouraged to look at. That's some modern form of witchcraft...but what about its usage at the time? Can we guess at that? And this from a ministry that was into "use in its context." Did TWI define this term? No way! What did the context mean, then? Perhaps what was happening at the time of Moses when he challenged Pharaoh? Or the witches whom Saul sought advice from? But what did TWI mean, conjuring tricks? Another of their stock accusations was, "You are not meek enough!" Rebellion was also seen as lack of meekness. Even something as simple as suggesting a better way to do something, when one had expertise in that area yet faced with a "leader" or "coordinator" who didn't have expertise. Therefore, perhaps, witchcraft is lack of meekness...retaining one's critical thinking...one's integrity. And, thereby, refusing to submit to the overall control of TWI and its thought police. Refusing to submit to the ultimate controllers - the ultimate "witches" as defined within this thread. And here I thought that Jesus died to set us free - from the control of adversaries. Silly me.

Can you post a link to that teaching?

Craig's take was that he was reprimanded for arranging the death of the cuckolded husband - not for seducing the wife. But actually, in view of later events due to Craig's own behaviour - he didn't heed that either. One husband (at least) has killed himself over his wife's relationship with LCM. Anyway the pair of 'em, LCM and VPW, don't possess Bibles with Exodus 20:14 in them.

There used to be a button where readers could print a topic and it would present in an editable Word document - could be edited, printed, saved. (Okay that was a few migrations ago, Paw has shifted this site a bit since I first got here and printed off screeds to read at leisure because I couldn't believe my eyes at what I was reading.) But how can I now print off topics (or more accurately save relevant bits) from ongoing topics here?

Well, I went and joined the ExWay site but it doesn't let me do anything that I couldn't do before registering. Perhaps that's something that'll happen when a person (not a program) looks at joining requests. Or maybe not... (shrug)

Heck, you're almost making me envious that there aren't any TWI still-ins near me! Some of you have such fun winding them up. I do know some other exTWI folk, not with TWI any more, and some of those are still "standing on the truth" they had learned. We're friends. I appreciate they aren't being nasty about it, just set in their views, and I'm not nasty back. But there are areas of conversation that need to be skated round - where we have to agree to differ. No point in picking a fight unnecessarily.

Well, I doubt anybody is watching this thread now as GSC is about to close down, but just in case: Tuxedo is turning into a real fuss-puss, loves to be fondled and when I am using the computer, feels the need to walk up and down on the back of the adjacent couch, rubbing up against me and rubbing faces. She also eases her way onto my lap, stamps around on me, and tries typing on the keyboard. She has a lovely happy purr. She also likes to lie on my chest with her head over my shoulder and relax a little. But it's in her time. You'd think she was nearly a normal cat. Until you realise she only does this with me. My Mum came to visit over Christmas and she hid all the time. Was captured with difficulty and held by Mum under great protest. When Mum went home after her visit, Tuxy avoided me for several days. She runs off even if people she knows well come to visit. She runs off and hides under the table or the chairs or anywhere else inaccessible, if I try to pick her up when I'm in some other location than by my computer. Crypto meanwhile is enjoying gentle strokes along her back and head and all along her body. She shows herself quite happily to people. Dosen't come near, but shows herself. She rubs round chair legs, other furniture, and occasionally hands - never against human legs. After 3 years, I still haven't picked her up. She is getting a bit of a voice on her and will now miaow at me if she wants something (like food, or more likely, play). She plays enthusiastically with people she knows. They love the cat flap and seem to have settled quite a lot since it was fitted and they can come and go at will during daylight hours (I don't let them out at night). They hated all the snow we had recently, refused to go out at all, and glared at me or looked "winningly" as if the snow were all my fault and I could or should make it all go away. Rain is also my fault, LOL. In about 20 years I might have "normal" cats that can be picked up. Oh wait...cats don't usually live that long. Ah well. I love 'em anyway and they do give me pleasure. So much better than they were. Over and out, then, on this thread.

Ach, I thought the site had vanished forever despite Paw saying it was to stay open for just a little longer. I missed this place! So glad it's up again!

Thanks for letting us know your decision, Catcup. Sounds like the right one, in the circumstances. Your middle names are not "Punchbag" or "Doormat" and you are exactly right to withdraw from those who cause dissention.

What the heck is THE?

Ye , Mark, I've heard that as an explanation too. I think I prefer the "meal" explanation especially since even now RCs celebrate with a "meal" - symbolic tokens of wafer and wine. And Christmas is renownedly a time of feasting and celebration...albeit on a pagan foundation. Welcome, POAE, you've joined just in time to hear the bolts of the Cafe door as it closes for the first and last time. Enjoy your short stay, and let me shout you a glass of something tasty. Does your screen name mean something special?

Hah! I just clicked on the FB link above and have been offered as a Friend someone ... let's say, that I don't care to spend time with. Just because I added someone I do care to spend time with, as a Friend. I kinda like being here, anonymously. And conversing with others, anonymously. We all change...a bit. We were all changed...badly, sometimes, by TWI. Some got better afterwards, and some got worse. Maybe I converse here with some from TWI that I would not care to spend time with. But while there is a "history" with not-so-nice-Fred-from-TWI, there isn't a history with cuppa-java-Fred-from-GSC.

"Adam and Eve on a Raft" is poached eggs on toast, not tasty link sausages in a delicious moist and crisp-on-top batter.

Sure ticks me off when I go to church and they "invite" Jesus to come, or the Holy Spirit to come, or whatever. Makes me want to rush up to the front of the church and demand to know of the leadership - if he never leaves us or forsakes us - if where we are gathered together, there he is - if, lo, he will never leave us - if God is ever listening to our prayers ---- who the heck are they "inviting"? And...who are they to "invite" anyway - if it's God's house? They're still a nice buncha people, though. Sincere, even if wrong. Which has got to be better than insincere and wrong.

I've met a few people from CFFM and some of them (who now fancy themselves as ordained) are just the same. You ask them something and they'll spout away about their favorite bit of scripture, never pausing for breath or even to look at you. No interest in why you might have asked a question. It's all ego and self-love. No attempt to meet any kind of need, give any kind of answer. An over-dependence on this verse: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified." But they take this out of context, which is this: "1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.<a name="8">" In other words, to those who were already believers, and then speaking with them with meekness and respect.; in demonstrating God's power - which would include showing how God could help in a situation - not with words and more words and yet more words about how many scriptures they know - but only as mere words. Like the words have no practical application in a personal context. Can't help thinking that's exactly how Jesus didn't answer questions from those genuinely wanting answers. And don't take this wrong - not getting at CFFM in this response (don't know enough about them), only at one or two of their "ministers".