Twinky

:wacko: (why don't we have a "vomit" icon in the emoticons?) Excie, you do come out with some awful things. I'd like to say I didn't believe you...but... :(

Waysider, I wonder if that's a variant of Stockholm syndrome - identifying with one's captors. In the cases you mention - the people have to identify with the one who ripped them off, so as to preserve some shred of their own self-esteem - they simply can't admit they made such a stupid mistake so they have to think that the person who ripped them off isn't a fraudster but has a genuine product.

Kit, I do understand that your friend was trampled over and her gift disparaged. Such an ungracious response. I've a recollection of LCM doing things like that, too, but can't recall any specifics. Doing my best to forget. This demand for handmade gifts, cards, etc. Making them could occupy hours of time. Even just finding the right shop-bought gift could take a long time. Hmm. Is that best "stewardship" of time? When believers could be "reaching out with the Word"? Or is it showing undue respect (cough) to leadership? I don't see Jesus accepting many "special" gifts though clearly they did have some monetary donations. I certanly don't see him demanding "gifts." I don't see Paul and the others with him accepting many gifts; rather, they collected gifts to give to others. That should settle it!

Didn't he change it, or at least it became God said it That settles it I believe it Because it's settled, whether anyone believes it or not. But I can also see your view, that it settles you. Anyways, I'm going to a sort of Bible school one evening a week. Interesting to consider their teaching. So much is similar to what TWI teaches/taught (not all). It's interesting that some of the same little catchphrases and buzz phrases are trotted out. Almost comforting, in a way, to know that not all of PFAL was "out of it." Last night, as an incidental, the tutor got into the importance of the first usage of a word or expression. Of course, it wasn't PFAL per se that was the problem. It was the PI that VWP loaded onto PFAL and the subtle and not-so-subtle self-glorification. And the minimising of the accomplishments of Jesus the Christ by theological arguments. And the huge mismatch between doctrine and practise.

There were more than two, mstar1. It's just that there were only two who went to law about it. And not actually for criminal charges of rape, either. There were. as I understand it, far more victims, women, who for whatever reason and against their better judgment "submitted" to LCM. W@yne Cl@app had confronted LCM over a period of years about his activities with women. It's obvious from his MO that he was well practiced. Neither of the assaults you mention was the work of a "beginner." And also: he learned well at VPW's ... feet. Who's to say he didn't help VPW and is therefore a rapist by procuring women for VPW, too, knowing what VPW would do?

Interesting that Johniam thinks, without any substantiation, to throw mud at Jim D00p (about whom I've never heard anything vile) yet Johniam also refuses to accept the vileness that so permeated all of VPW's life, which is hevily attested to on this forum. And Johiam - before you even think about it - If you want to libel D00p, please start your own thread and do not continue your argument on this one. I will ask the mods to remove any such posts from this thread.

Pharaoh-WI won't, can't, let the people go. They're already in the Promised Land, doncha know?

Far too much time, by all reports. But perhaps all that "groping" is why there was never any other proper plan? (Sorry for the slight derail. It was irresistable.)

Geisha, thanks for the link. I like considering different poitns of view. It challenges me to think about what I really think. Always better to see things not merely two-dimensional. Broken Arrow, same thought came to me too. I don't think he was that deliberate, but he was out for what he could get. And when he saw a chance, he grabbed it and accumulated it to his "empire." Opportunist, more than a careful planner. In his warped way, probably thought that God had blessed him with that opportunity. But it was all "take" and no "give." Interesting you mention Jim D00p. I never heard of the man until I came here, but he seems to have "good press." Would you call him an apostle, a pastor, or any of these other things? A prophet, even?

Wow, it didn't take johniam long to drag this thread waaaay off track. Anyone want to continue this thread and just quietly ignore john, leave him quietly in the corner muttering into his beer?

Great posts, WW, skyrider, geisha. Yes, that extra stuff in 1 Cor 12 never got talked about. I think some versions talk about the gift of administration - which seems a little weird, but then again, God is a God of organization not chaos. If VPW had latched onto that, no telling who could have had the "gift of administration" bestowed upon them (gulp). I find myself wondering if I would really recognize any one of these ministries if I saw it as a "stand-alone." I fear I have become too suspicious. Maybe I expect too much? But I do know, as Geisha says, that people manifesting these attributes are everywhere, in all sorts of roles. And each of us can switch between the roles, some roles more successfully than others, to provide (minister) help, guidance and succor wherever needed (thank God).

Intermediate class. Yes, that might be more appropriate. Yep, mstar1, I think it was just an excuse to be obnoxious and really not bother bringing himself back into line. Broken Arrow, very interesting what you say. Rosie...a prophet(ess). Worse, LCM as an apostle. I can honestly say that I haven't come across this in the Christians that I've met who were never to do with the Way. n the contrary, I have met ministers who acknowledge that they aren't good at (...) and appoint others to help them with that side of things. My former vicar, now gone to a different church, was a great teacher and visionary in what he wanted to achieve with the church, but when it came to the pastoral side...not so empathetic. But he did have a great associate minister who made the congregation as individuals feel very valued. So it worked well. When I come to think of it, there are few at TWI that I'd have gone to willingly for pastoral care whilst in rez. I had no expectation that things would remain confidential, or that difficulties would be dealt with kindly and empathetically. Who, in fact, would you describe as having the gift ministry of a "pastor"? Anyone? Or any other gift ministry, come to that? Prophets included. Has there ever been one genuine prophesy that has come to pass? (yet?) That couldn't have been worked out from newspaper reports?

Don't I remember VP saying this - must have been in PFAL? He was referring then to OT prophets. Because the OT prophets spoke out boldly, upset the local hierarchies, and weren't afraid to be obnoxious and persecuted. In fact, that added to their integrity. Those guys really stood up for what they believed in! Yep. VP fancied himself as a prophet (as well presumably, as The Teacher). He sure had all them thar gift ministries - in abundance. Apostle - brought us new light - showed us how to live the way the church hadn't lived since the first century. Prophet - always speaking forth so boldly and taking a stand. All that persecution he suffered, just because of his bold stand. Evangelist - and not just an evangelist, either, but the leader of a whole mass of evangelists (WOWs). Pastor - he certainly showed some women how much he cared (gag). Teacher - his self-chosen moniker. Did he ever call himself a "prophet"? Or just one who "speaks for and on behalf of God"? And while we're about it - which of these might be applied to Lovely Loy? I guess he must have fancied himself as Teacher Mk II but I'm not sure if I ever heard him refer to his own "gift ministry". And he certainly wasn't a gifted dancer. (Oh no no no, that's not a gift ministry anyway). And Rosie? Has she the gift ministry of Teacher Mk III? She was supposed to be "healing" wasn't she? So would that mean she had the GM of a Pastor? Haven preserve us from this talentless lot. I do mean this as a serious topic...but I can imagine it might very quickly turn into something else.

Great Post, T-Bone. Obergrown weeds, LOL. I think for many of us here - the learning happened AFTER we left TWI - when we worked out "what it is, and what it is not." Among other things, we here have learned to be wary. To "prove [test] all things." And, hopefully, having been hurt, and having hurt many along the way, we have also learned how to treat people compassionately and avoid causing further hurt to others. Soooo glad I'm out. I just spend a few moments thinking about what sort of person I might have become had I still been in...not at all a pretty sight. It was painful being cast out and M&A'd...but really, it was a big favor. I had no plans to leave voluntarily. Even though those red flags were flying thicker and more vigorously than ever. Them there weeds sure obscured the view.

True, Bolshevik, emergency situations do require someone to take overall charge, to avoid confusion and duplication. There weren't really emergencies in the Way except of their own manufacture. People, especially in-rez Corps, were oppressed very badly and sometimes cracked or got into highly stressed conditions. Then it became an "emergency" with either everyone buzzing round, or more face-meltings; maybe both. Very little idea of not squashing people into a particular mold or letting them become "transformed" at their own rate. Handling people with a lighter touch has got to be better. "Trust is earned." LCM used to say that a lot. Usually after a face-melting followed by a humiliating grovel back into favor. Or some Corps person who had been put "on probation" for a while - so that they could "earn" trust again. In fact, "earning trust" became almost another weapon exercized by leadership against their minions. i can think of one of my Corps bros who did something fairly inoffensive "wrong"; after a face-melting and then "grace" from LCM, has so "earned trust" that he is now (or was) a high-up leader and reports of him that I've seen here show him to have become a serious abuser in his own right. In other words, he has become a clone. But this is a two-way street, isn't it? We were required to trust leadership. After all, they'd already proved themselves - to very top leadership. There was an expectation that all Corps were to be trusted and had earned that trust and respect. Many of them were in fact worthy of the trust. Regrettably there were also abusers who were Corps, people who defiled the trust by the way they treated spouses, children, and twiggies. Cloning is such an abuse of God. Because he formed us individually. Gave us abilities and talents and skills that surely he would like us to use. Because each one of us can outreach to different communities, people, individuals. What works for Freddie to hear the word won't work for Freda. Proverbs says in two places that "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" and in a further place, that "in the multitude of counsellors [purposes] are established." That means listening to different voices, different opinions. Different views. Listening to those makes a team strong, not weak. 1 Kings 22 records a very interesting interchange - Ahab the king of Israel has all his prophets (yes-men) supporting his plan of action. Jehoshaphat king of Judah isn't convinced and calls for the one man that he knows will say different ("There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may enquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil.") Micaiah wasn't a yes-man so wasn't on the team. Ahab didn't listen to Micaiah's advice (prophecy) - and got himself killed. Ahab's death was prophesied long before...but did it have to happen them? Had Ahab heeded the advice of the non-clone...he might have lived another day. It's kind of interesting to think of that, and "leader-clone teams" in light of the current situation in the middle East (not that I want to take this into politics or anything) where moderate voices have been quashed and dictators have accreted power. Now there is significant unrest in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and other like countries. Who knows where next? Because these leaders don't listen to the voices of moderates who advise that the general populace shouldn't be treated in oppressive ways.

Raf! At it again...! Congratulations, hope everything goes well.

I always thought that was something from the novel "The Carpetbaggers." Notice (as usual with VPW) the lack of anything specific. Nowhere mentioned by name. Musta been written on that piece of paper that proved that Jesus was inducted into the synagogue a year early "because of his supposed illegitimacy."

Snakes in Suits. Sounds interesting. Is it a variation of Snake-oil Salesmen in Suits? Sounds like it deals with the same mentality.

What I hear on this thread lately is, "You're not listening to meeeeee!!!" Johniam can't hear what others say, and others cannot hear what Johniam says. Or rather, they do hear, but can't understand. Having said that, I find it somewhat difficult, too, to understand why Johniam persists in thinking VPW "good." I do undesrtand that he learned enough scripture to turn his life around and that really helped him. That should be to God's glory - not VPW's. It is very sad, but isn't compassion about being able to empathize with others, about attempting to understand where they are coming from? And how can one be compassionate, without attempting to see the other's point of view (you don't have to accept it, just make an effort to see it). No way could VPW be considered compassionate. For him it was me me me me me all the way. He didn't consider others except to the extent he could get something from them...money, prestige, adulation. If someone doesn't show compassion (and Jesus Christ was full of compassion), how can they be cnsidered a "good" man? Good in what sense? Not a godly sense. Good in a devilry-promoting sense, maybe. Waysider, it was "That saved a soul like me" when I was in...but hey, they still changed the words. Maybe several times. Not just to that song, but to many others as well.

Ah, JJ, you are not alone in those sentiments. Gosh, those spirits of rebellion were strong in TWI. Such a dangerous place out there. In the world. Our families, that raised us more or less to be reasonable human being - so dangerous. We really really needed the protection of TWI. And yet, all the while, they managed to teach (?) us that we should be strong in the Lord, know how to wear and use our spiritual armor (that from Ephesians, the stuff the athletes of the spirit must have worn), and that we are seated in the heavenlies, and that we are not just conquerors but more than conquerors. Seems to me that the "heavenlies" is a bit bigger place than "the household" or "Zion". And "nothing can separate us from the love of Christ" is a bit bigger than "nothing can separate us from the love of TWI." But of course when I was a Waybrained idiot, I too fell for the silly lie instilled by the fear-teachings, that being outside TWI was too dangerous. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. So if we were fearful and had thoughts of suicide (and for some, actually did commit suicide) ...where was that from? And what sort of organization taught that? Not a Godly one, that's for sure. :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: :realmad: (this board won't let me add enough emoticons to say how I am about it!)

Acts 20:7-12 (NIV) Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas 7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be alarmed," he said. "He's alive!" 11 Then he went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted. Compare and contrast.

Your pastor sounds good, Socks. The business where you work sounds good, too. There's so much more to be gained by working collaboratively not combatively. Seems to me to be the gospel model. Didn't JC tell his buddies: "Quit fighting and figuring out who's the greatest among you. Just get out there and do the job. You-all figure out how to do the job, get on and do it with your partner, and just let me know the results." And the 70 returned with joy... (Dunno what Joy thought about it, perhaps she fancied hanging out with a load of rather interesting characters!) Anyway, they weren't micro-managed, just allowed to get on with their assigned tasks using their own unique characters and abilities. I suppose actually we are clones, in a way. Clones in heart and focus. But not clones in thinking processes or actions.

You know how you can kill a slug? Sprinkle it with salt. Not a pretty sight, if you watch it. TWI teaches that salt=commitment. Maybe if Rosie had a bit more commitment...being committed to anything other than love of power would surely kill her. Don't know about the US, but in the UK the law is such that a person can be convicted of a crime even if that person could not commit the crime as principal. This means that a woman can be convicted of rape if she aids and abets a man to rape someone. By aiding and abetting, the woman is considered as guilty as the man who actually performs the criminal act. Yes, the woman is a rapist, too. There's a long history reported here that Rosie procured women for both VPW and LCM. She "vetted" victims, arranged circumstances, and encouraged the victims to attend and participate. She knew what these males intended. She knew what would happen. And therefore she is as guilty. So perhaps there needs to be a third button in the topic choices.

Hey Cafe patrons, I'm asking you to toss your pocket change my way as the Cafe closes. Give the Cafe cat a last saucer of milk, or whatever. I'm again running in a Half Marathon, coming up all too fast on 6 March. My charity is again Genesis Trust, which is a Christian charity funded from donations from many churches in this city and from donations from the public. The Trust supports vulnerable and homeless people, teaching them genuine life skills, helping them into work, and providing meals at no, or very cheap, cost to the eater. Times are hard for us all, and charities are no exception. Please help if you can. Yours is the easy bit. You don't even have to bother with currency conversion; an online donation will take care of all that for you. And I promise to think of you (as well) as I beat the feet round 13 miles of road. Thanks in advance. Genesis Trust Twinky's online donations page

The context of this thread is: WAS VPW A GOOD MAN? And so here we have Johniam raising pedophile activities and then saying VPW didn't do those things. Therefore (it appears), because VPW didn't do that very serious wrong ... he was a good man???? Kinda like the nazi war trials where a concentration camp guard or even commandant wasn't punished so harshly because he did the occasional not-so-nasty thing to an inmate. Never mind that he caused or colluded in the death of thousands of others. No. They weren't "good" men, either. I have to agree with Broken Arrow. After his first act of adultery, he disqualified himself as any sort of minister to God's people. And I conclude that where VPW is concerned, Johniam is nothing more than a troll. He so loves to post inflammatory remarks that are absolutely nothing at all to do with the topic in hand, get the place exploding in uproar, then throws some more gas on the fire. Internet Troll