Twinky

I have to disagree with you. I think there is a lot to be learned about spiritual maturity from TWI. And especially from the programs it ran. Chief of those, the Corps program. The important thing to know, however, is that the spiritual maturity begins AFTER you have done these AND GOT OUT, and really start to THINK about what happened, what you saw, what you did, what others did. When you start to think about how those things line up with Biblical principle, and learn "What it is" and "What it is not." When you understand what you did not get "taught;" how you learned not to engage with those you were supposed to help; when you should rejoice with those who rejoice, and when you should weep with those who weep. When you realize our multi-faceted God has more than the facet shown by TWI. When you grasp those things, then you start to gain spiritual maturity. And it's as fast-track as you can learn to think again.

I never heard it in that context. I heard of this in the context that you simply don't share everything with your spouse. You might be "working" with someone - counselling - and you don't go telling other people's confidences. But then again, knowing now what I do about some of the "counselling" that went on...that "working" with someone might mean you wouldn't dare share with your spouse what you'd done. Not unless you wanted a frying pan upside the head or at least an almighty row...no, that would require a spouse with "normal" reactions to infidelity. Lockbox.... There is a time and place for keeping things quiet, not blabbing about. But not quite in the context taught by TWI.

Who, what, where??? News, please, OldSkool. Maybe they're running people off so that they have fewer people overall to [have to] share that pot of money with.

Very funny, T-Bone. You know, though, that a fundamental thing that escapees need to know, to really know, that's absolutely completely completely know - is that : GOD LOVES THEM - STILL - wherever they are and GOD IS NOT DISPLEASED WITH THEM. GOD IS NOT ASHAMED OF THEM, and THEY ARE NOT A DISGRACE TO HIS FAMILY. GOD DELIGHTS IN THEM ONLY LEGALISTS REJECT THEM That maybe has to be understood before "what's available" can really clip in.

Outandabout, do I take it you're a fan of Red Hot Chili Poopers?

"There's no such thing as bad publicity!" Got 'em noticed. But I don't know that I'd want to drink anything there (shudder).

When I was in rez (early 90s) it was kelp with everything. Mealtime shakers on the table: salt, pepper, kelp. Everything had to have a sprinkle of kelp. Oh. And fertile eggs. There was a craze for fertile eggs - because they had "life" in them. Gruesome. You also had to have water with a meal - never tea or coffee which "interfered with digestion" (also costs more than plain tap water). But sometimes (some months) you didn't have to have water with a meal or within 1/2 hour of a meal - because that interfered with digestion. Never heard of half the things mentioned on this thread. Postum? Figpep? Wheat berries? Chicory was put in coffee to stretch the coffee. Wartime remedy when it was hard to get coffee.

I get on just fine with other Christians...because I concentrate on what we have in common, not what doctrinal differences cause division. I don't find the need to spout off about things that I might believe differently, if they don't seem receptive. Who am I to condemn another's servant? Who am I to condemn my brother in Christ? I never thought about what profit there might be on the teaching tapes. But you're right. A nice little moneyspinner. Even if you only made $1 on each. Can't remember how much the Way mag was but that also must have made a healthy profit. No costs really. Staff articles already paid for (in staff salaries) or from occasional field staff. Photos from staff photographer. In house production. Printing costs not huge. I think they said it was the price it was because there was no advertising to defray the costs. But actually...all the costs were pretty much all paid anyway. Ridiculous as well when they expected everyone to have their own sub, not just share within families etc. Huh. BTW there are any number of good-quality church mags available FREE on a two- or three-monthly basis. Good thoughtful articles, too.

We seem to have moved quite a long way from whether or not VPW had a stroke whilst teaching at the Rock. Though it does seem established that he suffered a stroke whilst teaching at WIB.

In case I hadn't made it clear enough, the intercessio process isn't where the intercessor / intervenor says, "Please can you let this person off?" The intercessor doesn't beg, persuade, wheedle. The intercessor says, with all boldness and in complete confidence that when he says, demands: "No, this is not going to happen. No penalty here. No punishment" - he knows the punishment isn't going to take place. It's nullified. Of no effect. As such, there must be something of a link with Mercy but I haven't explored that link. Yet.

You mean, like a "weep"? Plenty of that going on. Or a "sholf". Plenty here wish we'd been left on the sholf, sorry, shelf. Or maybe it's TWI now that's left on the shelf...an out of date package of ...something gone rotten. And now back to the regular thread...

I'm doing a Bible study course and last week the "tutor" was going on about Jesus interceding on our behalf. Got me thinking (yes, I do that sometimes) – particularly because Rom 8:26 says: "the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" – in fact, in TWI teaching (that I don't want to get into) it's one of the 12 or 14 benefits of having holy spirit. But in Rom 8:27 and 34, we learn that "Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought : but the Spirit itself maketh intercession #1 for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts [God is the searcher of hearts] knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he [it, the spirit? he, JC?] maketh intercession #2 for the saints according to the will of God. … 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth . 34 Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession #2 for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? … I got interested in this. Holy spirit intercedes for us? And Christ "also" intercedes for us? What's going on here? First I found that Rom 8:26 (talking of the spirit) uses the Gk word Huperentugchano (#1) meaning simply "to intercede for one" – "huper" being intensive of the following. Rom 8:27 and 34, used in context of what Christ does, use a different word, though clearly the root word for the above: Entugchano (#2) - meaning 1. to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing 2. to go to or meet a person, esp. for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication 3. to pray, entreat 4. make intercession for any one Next I found that "also" (Gk kai) means (Strong's definition) "and, also, even, indeed, but"; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force [my note, does that sound posh, or what?!] Which may not mean "also" (=in addition to) but may perhaps be emphasising that it's Christ "indeed" who makes intercession for us. "Intercession" is not a commonly used word in the Bible – only 6 times in the NT, and then with 3 Greek words. So what is intercession? There's any number of Christian definitions, some of which are pretty wacky, but bear in mind that Paul, who wrote the epistle of Romans, was himself a well-educated Roman citizen, in a land occupied by the Roman army, and was writing to the believers in Rome. Therefore, his choice of this particular word has to be highly significant and must be imbued with the likely meaning at the time, not "Christian" definitions that came a millenium and a half, or more, later. What do we find? One meaning for "intercessio" (a Latin word) that definitely bears looking at is this: In Roman history – intercessio is the interposing of a veto by a tribune or other magistrate. Intercession has two meanings: (1) the interference of a magistratus to whom an appeal [Appellatio] was made. The object of the Intercessio was to put a stop to proceedings [the veto], on the ground of informality or other sufficient cause. Any magistratus might "intercedere," who was of equal rank with or of rank superior to the magistratus from or against whom the appellatio was. My link Also: (2) when a man takes upon himself the debt of another by virtue of some dealing with the creditor. This may be in either of the following ways: he who intercedes may take upon himself the debt of another, and may become debtor in place of that other: or the intercedent may become debtor while the debtor still continues debtor [my note: this is more like being a guarantor or surety for another] Different link Nowadays, we know the first meaning of "intercessio" more as "veto" meaning "I forbid" - preventing things from happening - preventing legal process from taking effect. Intercessio, was adopted by the Roman Republic in the 6th century BC as a way of enabling the tribunes to protect the interests of the plebs (common citizenry) from the encroachments of the patricians, who dominated the Senate. A tribune's veto did not prevent the senate from passing a bill, but meant that it was denied the force of law. The tribunes could also use the veto to prevent a bill from being brought before the plebeian assembly. The consuls also had the power of veto, as decision-making generally required the assent of both consuls. If one disagreed, either could invoke the intercessio to block the action of the other. The veto was an essential component of the Roman conception of power being wielded not only to manage state affairs but to moderate and restrict the power of the state's high officials and institution. (Wikipedia) In brief, intercession is a legal process – it's not just a "request" (that's prayer) but it's a process effectively nullifying a legally justifiable outcome. We hear about God being a "just" God. That we were "legally bought back" from the devil. That the price is paid, and the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us is blotted out. That JC is the "mediator" for us with the Father. But I never heard anything about this legal right; this process - it's awesome! Intercession is a legal process. Intercession is the legal right to intervene on behalf of another to veto the law or a penalty. Intercession is the legal right to say: "The force of the law shall not take effect." Jesus, as son, having equality with the Father (Jn 5:18), has the right to intervene. Jesus also has the right to say, "I've taken on this debt, it's paid in full" - because of his legal standing - not just because he himself already has paid. Astonishingly: we as believers have that same legal right. 1 Tim 2:1 exhorts that “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.” This word “intercessions” is a different Greek word again, enteuxis, meaning “a falling in with, meeting with, an interview…a conference, conversation, petition, supplication” and is derived from its root word, the second definition above. I know how many years it took me to qualify as a lawyer – to have legal rights to speak on behalf of clients – to advocate their cases – before the court at the highest level. It would have taken me very many more years to acquire status enough to actually overrule fellow lawyers and judges, rather than just present a different point of view. And here – God just gives us that right as part of the package of sonship rights. The more I look at this – the bigger it gets. Comment, anyone, before you rush off to intercede for someone?

I think Year2027 might have a different opinion too. Roy thinks that JC is coming back in 2027.

You are naughty, Waysider! (Funny too) Not that your later posts add a great deal to VPW's stroke whilst teaching though your first post does add some info, thanks very much. Maybe Juedes got it wrong, not at the Rock at all.

I guess come May 22 2011 we'll know if he really speaks for God, or not. Better have your car radio tuned, Socks. Not sure how you'll let us know - via Facebook/GSC page perhaps. Me? I'll go when the good Lord tells me. Not when some self-appointed spokesman for God tells me.

Wordwolf, quoting John Juedes, says this in the VPW Plagiarism Documentation thread: I never heard this about having a stroke while teaching. Can anyone give more information? When did this happen?

You must be wrong about VPW having had the idea for the internet. Because the internet, you will know from reliable sources like LCM, is full of devil spirits and evil information (like how he abused women). Or maybe the internet as it is currently is just another cunning counterfeit?

The second article on the Frontal Cortex is interesting. A wonderful example of this kind of thinking, right now, is Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian PM, who simply cannot understand why people are making a fuss about him (how old is he? 60s? more?) spending lots of time with young women - very young women - underage females. He silences all opposition and seems to be Teflon-coated...until the last day or two (LOL). What's bizarre is that he is so popular. I can only think that he is living the "fantasy" that many Italian men would like to live. He's the Alpha "lad" and they wish they were he. The female Italians don't seem so keen on him, however. Wonder why? :blink:

The First Century Church... ...was undoubtedly set up with each fellowship being self-governing, being as the fellowships were so far apart. Though with advice available where necessary and to point out obvious errors (like incest in the Corinthian church) ...was characterized by sharing what they had with each other - that's what impressed outsiders and won converts ...respected local leaders, and worked hard to ensure that believers lived and worked in peace with one another Compare and contrast.

"Reduce vandalism"...two thoughts: if TWI didn't make itself so obnixious locally, perhaps it wouldn't have suffered vandalism. It would be interesting to know how much "vandalism" other farms and properties in the same neighborhood suffered Formation of a private police force is hardly "bless those that persecute you" or turning the other cheek. (Maybe property protection was "justified" by protecting the ABS the believers had contributed) "Grant them access to nationwide police records"...Would this be used against alleged vandals? Probably all of whom were known locally. Or would it have been used against the believers? Knowing the abuse that took place with known information (like "letters of apology" and "Birth to Corps papers", how much worse and controlling would the organization be, if they had access to such sensitive Police information? Nationally? Knowledge of one's own and one's family's past criminal history would be passed off as "revelation" and would be used for fuelling all sorts of "possession" allegations. What a scary thought.

Check out the photos - there's a bit called "Talking with Shirley" or some such. Such nice trailer homes in the background! 20% more of zero - is still zero.

VPW isn't anything like the epitome of evil. He was just a nasty old man who abused God and God's people. Not the first, not the last. VPW was not the epitome of "good" either - he was a long long loooonnnnggg way from that. He should at least have had some good habits that would make him a recognizable role model. VPW was fond of saying that he wasn't judging - it was God judging, by the standards set in His Word. Therefore, it behooves us to "line up our actions with the Word." (I paraphrase slightly, I can't remember the exact words but that was the tenor.) That's a fine thing to say, and a fine thing to do. But it's not what VPW did. All prophets, all people with a "gift ministry" - all Christians - are human beings, with faults, egos, their own natural lusts - which draw them away from God. We are vessels of clay. We all do things wrong. But most Christians will eventually get back to thinking, I'm wrong here - I'm not doing what God says. I've sinned against God and man. They may well notice that somehow things just aren't going so well with them. God is not "working with them" any more. And when they show a little humility and repent of their "off" behavior, forgiveness is theirs and they get a clean slate to start over again with. They get to see God working within them again. Now if one persistently does what is clearly - clearly - explicitly - said to be wrong - how on earth can one claim to have a decent relationship with God? How, if one flagrantly ignores the written word, can one expect, firstly, to hear a non-written word from God; and secondly, to be able to impart that accurately to others? Why on earth should God speak as to a prophet, to one who wilfully closes his ears and eyes to what is plainly in front of his nose (well, it would be if he bothered to open his Bible)? Both OT and NT say - don't lie. Both OT and NT say - don't steal, don't defraud. Both OT and NT say - no adultery. Both OT and NT say - don't covet what others have. (I could make a long list here.) Be ye holy, for I am holy. (Many places, OT and NT; check out 1 and 2 Peter) What communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? (2 Cor 6) All fail, all fall short of the glory of God. But some upon realizing where they have fallen short - apologize, and get back on track. Perfection is neither expected nor demanded. A genuine effort to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength - that is to be expected. Why would God choose a "prophet" - a "pastor" - a "teacher" (worse, "The Teacher") - who persistently ignored him over decades - in fact, figuratively spat in his face? And one who was more a prophet, pastor or teacher of Belial, than of the true God?

Reading a bit more about Jim Jones brought Tim Stoen to light. His Wikipedia entry has some interesting remarks about tactics used by JJ, the writing of letters, confessions and affidavits, and how they were used against the authors. That was a common TWI tactic. Tim Stoen

Koresh has an interesting life history: Koresh Sounds like a crackpot from the get-go. Funny how all these cult leaders think that women belong to them: "... also claims that Koresh would annul all marriages of couples who joined his cult. He then had exclusive sexual access to the women" including under-age females. As for Jim Jones: "While Jones banned sex among Temple members outside of marriage, he himself voraciously engaged in sexual relations with both male and female Temple members.[/url] Jones, however, claimed that he detested engaging in homosexual activity and did so only for the male temple adherents' own good, purportedly to connect them symbolically with him (Jones)" - notwithstanding he had an earlier police record for homosexual activity. Jones Ain't life fun....

Socrates: in VP & Me, LCM made claims that he'd sit outside the motorcoach door, just waiting for VP - so that he could be ready to learn from him. Of course, then, we all thought that that meant he was keen to learn the Word from VP. Just wondering now if it meant something altogether more sinister. Waiting to learn about how to assault women? Waiting to abuse the same women? Guarding the motorcoach from interruption by others?