Twinky

T-Bone, you really didn't have anything much to do with your time, did you? All that time, effort! I remember doing the "homework" of dechomai/lambano marking and the HS/hs stuff. Actually I thik some of the HS/hs marking might have been useful. Not so sure about D/L. I was never a huge marker-up. Just because it's relevant to the latest teaching session on XYZ doesn't mean it's relevant to the teaching session next month on PQR. I did sometimes write Bible cross-refs in that I'd found (for myself) that weren't annotated in margins or footnotes. I still have the old Way Bible (a Companion) but never look at it. I don't mark up Bibles any more. I do have a large selection of different versions of the Bible, and read bits through all of them. Compare translations. Some are better at bringing the text to life, making it more meaningful, by choice of an alternative word. I'm quite keen on a Holman Bible that I got from a Christian bookshop. It seems quite well translated and "accurate" (as far as I can tell) with useful word-choices and nuances of tenses. It's not widely used, though; don't know why.

I can't even be bothered to reply to Johniam's post #110 above. Chockfull has replied adequately on the Soap Box thread. I'll not prolong the agony here. The interest in CFFM is MY interest in what CFFM does with its finances, so far as may be known. It's okay to ask that question, surely? On this thread, I'm not interested in anything else.

John, I started the thread so that you could talk about whatever YOU wanted to talk about - without the need to derail other threads. It looks as if Ham and Waysider have managed a very effective derail, but you can bring it back to whatever YOU want at any time. Not my thread - a gift for you. You managed a very long convoluted post on Dishing it Out that I would have replied to on this thread but it seems that others, notably Chockfull, have done sufficiently well for me. I think, John, of VPW's analogy of a camera - point, focus, shoot - you seem incapable of staying focussed on the matter in hand. If a thread starts about X you divert it to Q via Z, A, B, C, etc and STILL never manage to discuss X. Whereas others will attempt to discuss X and may deviate to discuss W and Y as well but still keep it close to and bring it back to X. There are times that it's uncertain you can actually see "X" through your PFAL colored camera lens. It's perfectly okay to discuss Q, or anything else, if that's what a thread is about.

From The Interenet Archive website: Information access for the blind? What, with "teachings" like VPW's accessible, it'll really be the blind leading the blind, huh? Persons with disabilities...like glass eyes, maybe. Internet Archive isn't anything associated with TWI. Leastways, doesn't seem to be. They pick stuff up with crawlers. So that means someone else has posted all this stuff out there. And you can be sure it's not TWI itself, which is too secretive to put its "teachings" out on the net for people to listen to.

Okay, I opened a new thread specially for Johniam to have his say. Other people have gone there so that they can continue to converse with John. Who hasn't shown up there yet? John!!!! Because, it seems, he would rather distract everybody else. I asked a question because I wanted an answer. The answer seems to be, that CFFM in fact DOES dish out money. I don't know the level of that, but they sent me their tapes for a long time till I asked them not to because I can listen over the net. They've never asked me for anything towards the tape cost. And I haven't seen anybody saying that they are greedy b***s who demand "ABS" as a right. Could I respectfully suggest that if John posts again on this thread - the rest of us ignore him, copy any response onto the Soapbox thread, and respond to him there? He can do what he likes there. Go off on any tangent he likes.

Twelve...doesnt that mean "administratively complete" or some such? You're right. She has had her 12 years of complete administration. TWI is completely completely absolutely completely complete. Or replete. Or deplete. Time to go! As for what happens to charity funding, it should go to another charity that has more or less the same aims. Golly gosh, that could mean a windfall for an offshoot. Or maybe it could be given to a charity or church that really does outreach into the community. Maybe even the church in Van Wert, if it's still there?

Well, that should give John a few ideas to pick at and to keep him happy. Very happy to "debate" with John on his own ideas. For which this thread might provide an outlet. Not happy to have him keep butting in where those ideas persistently distract from the thread in hand. Johniam, over to you...?

Johniam, here you are: A gift thread for you

Johniam, on the Dishing it out thread, said: And I said: It’s quite clear that Johniam will distract every thread that comes his way. So I am starting this in his honor and he can take it wherever he wants. Whenever he wants. Just as long as he leaves other threads alone. Perhaps, Johniam, you’d let me know if you agree with this, as a topic starter? “You understand the WORDS and you understand (you think) the GRAMMAR but you DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING and that pretty much applies to everything you say.” I’m not meaning this as a personal attack, just as a space where you, John, can say your thing and not feel the need to drag everything else off topic. Regard this thread as your own personal soap box.

Oh for crying out loud. Johniam, why do you hijack every thread? Why is it always about YOU? You hide behind VPW and you distract every thread. Now you have parsed a sentence of a few words to make it fit your doctrine (which is nothing to do with this thread anyway). You understand the WORDS and you understand (you think) the GRAMMAR but you DON'T UNDERSTAND THE MEANING and that pretty much applies to everything you say. Johniam, please START YOUR OWN THREADS if you want to argue. Others ARE trying to stick to the point. Hey, I'll help you, then others can get on with the matter in hand.

Oh, T-Bone, I do enjoy your posts! Those excepts you posted are rather chilling. There's a balance somewhere. Not fundy refer it all back to the Bible stuff; and not touchy-feely secular stuff either. Both can end up as "head knowledge" without the wisdom of proper application.

Some have started their own "rogue twigs" - but they just meet together without demanding money. A few meet together and do want money. I know of one that did...it never thrived and is now defunct. The leader just seemed to want money even though he was adequately provided for financially by other means.

Johnia, it's not CFFM's money. It's given to them in trust to use it to help those in need. Like money was given to the apostles to redistribute to those in need. Not to be used for their own personal ends. Sure, some of those ends will include salaries for paid staff (not begrudging that) but it's not to be held in a bank account gathering interest when there are people with genuine needs out there. It's like the manna that was received in the desert. Use it straight away or it will go bad. Manna only kept two days over the Sabbath. Likewise a heap of ABS that's kept "turns bad" and makes those who "guard" it think of it as their personal property. But it isn't. In effect, they're stealing it off those who do have needs. Back to the topic, johniam. Do please stop being so distracting. Go start your own thread. Stop hijacking other people's. All you do, in fact, johniam, is make me think that CFFM is doing good. Because the model you keep holding up,VP, is so clearly bad, and you are obviously unable to say that about CFFM. Thanks!

Anyway, this thread has been derailed and is going further off track, thanks to Johniam. This thread is NOT about TWI or VPW or any such. What I wanted to know was whether CFFM uses the money it receives to help the community around it, or the believers who at least put the money in the coffers. A few of you have suggested that, yes, it does. It does seem more open to giving away the money to those in need. I'm pleased to hear that. Any more comments about CFFM?

johniam said: mmm - What happened to "freely you have received - freely give"? Or is it, then, because you charged me for a Bible class, that gives me the right to charge someone else? I don't think so! Who did Jesus "charge"? Who did his disciples "charge"? Who did Paul, Apollos, other early gospel-spreaders, charge? But Simon the magician wanted to know - so that he could charge. And he was briskly dealt with. There is much condemnation of those "who think themselves to be something." That is, those who self-promote. Christians have no business "marketing" themselves. They are to reckon the old man dead. They die to self, live to Christ. Therefore, johniam, shouldn't they be marketing their "new man" - their Christ - shouldn't they be "marketing" Christ? (Except that if they announced the price - who'd pay? It only costs you - yourself!) The god of this world wants people to idolize people, bands, groups, events. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has a rather different perspective. He makes blessings fall on the rich and the poor, the saint and the sinner. Without charge. Just because he likes to give.

And does this instruction in counselling also go as far as saying, go and help that person with their "physicals"? Does it suggest, when you're round at their house inspecting for cleanliness, that you haul out the vac, wash the pots, help with the laundry, etc etc? Because if you could help them live in a physically cleaner tidier place, you just might find their depression might lift a little. Heck, there were enough higher-ups who expected twiggies to go help clean their houses and yards. And they (the BCs etc) were perfectly capable of doing their own housework (except of course they didn't have the time because they were "moving the Word"). How about helping someone who for a while couldn't help themself? Oh...no...that wouldn't work. That would stop the counsellor from "moving the Word" elsewhere. Gotta keep reaching out, hey.

I never thought it particularly introduced doubt. Well, no more doubt than you can have about any future. I've always looked forward to the next life to come. which I don't expect to be like this life that I have now. But in the life that I have now, I'd like it to be the best that it can be. And I think that happens by living a Christian lifestyle as well as is possible. It opens the eyes and heart to the abundance that's available in a relationship - with God, with friends. Heart-sharing, caring, supportiveness...love. Not necessarily abundance in physical wealth.

To be able to counsel someone requires both detachment and empathy. Empathy, to try to understand where the counsellee is coming from. Detachment, to be able to see the overall situation and to guide the counsellee out or through. From a careers advice website: At every level in this very basic list, TWI failed at "corporate" level. There were some people who were "good listeners" and those with difficulties genuinely warmed to them and sought their advice. But generally, "counselling" sessions were a sort of excuse for asking intrusive and irrelevant personal questions. And for spying on individuals - maybe the counsellee, maybe people associated with the counsellee. To think that LCM had fancied himself as a psychologist. Isn't that, supposedly, the degree he took? (That's what he told my Corps, anyway - before dissing all psychologists as charlatans.)

Okay, this one isn't about TWI. It's about a TWI "offshoot". TWI sits on a big pot of money comprising the value of the land it owns (in various locations) and a shedload of money held in the bank in various forms. I have no idea about what CFFM might own, or not. I'm not bothered about that. It's the hang-over of TWI-thinking that's worth a look. I'm just wondering what CFFM does with the "ABS" or whatever they call it. And class costs and materials. What use that gets. Clearly there are salaries for people on staff. Clearly members of staff travel to teach in locations other than the home base. Clearly there is upkeep on buildings that they own or lease. These are legitimate expenses. I know from what I did with the leadership in another country that event costs were carefully worked out so that they didn't cause too much difficulty for the believers - in fact, costs for some events were slightly subsidized from funds held by that country. I doubt that could be true of all CFFM events. But perhaps it is. But apart from (possibly) funding their own events - does anyone know of what CFFM might do with its funds to help the wider community? Do they contribute to local initiatives for homeless, to provide meals at the soup kitchen, to help fellow non-CFFM Christians? Do they support locals who have had emergencies - support in case some local carpenter was injured and unable to work; a woman whose husband had deserted her and the kids; a family where a child had been hospitalized a long way away? Do they use the funds to help at the local hospital, at the night shelter, kids' club, or anything else? Do they support their own members who might have trouble? A sudden emergency - a vital piece of household equipment breaks down - a tree crashes through the roof - a family member overseas is in desperate trouble - or even just - an individual simply cannot make ends meet despite all reasonable budgeting? Does CFFM share funds out - does it have it all "in common" or it is - you share with me, and I'll guard it from everyone? There may be publicly-accessible accounts somewhere that are available. And there will be some here who have experience with CFFM.

Here you are, OldSkool.

God expects us to forgive, out of thankfulness for what we have been forgiven for. But at human level - we can't demand forgiveness from anyone. We can ask for it, expect it... but demand it? No. That would be like tearing the wings off a butterfly and wondering why it didn't flutter round any more. "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" means, I think, that the perpetrators of heinous acts don't understand the big picture, they don't understand God's plan, they have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Sure, they know what their physical actions are. But they don't understand what their actions mean, or the repercussions from their actions. Again, like a little kid pulling the wings off a butterfly - knows he's doing it, but doesn't understand what the purpose of the wings is, how they work. Now why don't perpetrators have the proper understanding? One reason might be simply lack of willingness at purely physical level to understand what they're doing. Lack of empathy. Lack of consideration. Or misguidedness based on wrong information. Another reason might be that their minds are so spiritually blinded (aka, possession) that the necessary part of their brain really doesn't function correctly. They genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the best in whatever part of their brain is still "thinking." So they have to be forgiven for [allowing themselves to be] being spiritually deceived. I always thought that those words at the crucial time of the crucifixion were JC's acknowledgment of the spiritual forces in play at the time. This was the great battle of good and evil, and the human actors were just bit players and as dispensible as the clothes they wore. That was why he sought forgiveness for them - for their very human frailty.

Pawtucket - why indeed? You don't suppose the BC was a part of it in some way? Or condoned it by not speaking out earlier? It seems a very strange response on the part of TWI.

I think this quote from one of the scammed investors explains a lot: But the idiots went ahead and handed over their retirement fund to Hirschfield anyway. Hadn't they heard - if it sounds too good to be true - it probably isn't true. I'm not excusing Hirschfeld. But his victims were drawn into it by their own lust (greed) which opened the door to Hirschfeld taking the opportunity. If any remaining innies had any sense - they'd see the discrepancy between smokin' out all those horrendous spiritual suspects early on (the homo and debt purges) - few if any of whom were guilty as alleged - and the failure to smoke out the real suspects - the Hirschfeld fraudster(s). Perhaps you just have to say TWI can't see their "own" type of filth - they can't spot a scammer - and they can't spot practicing homosexuals either.

NY,it's not Juedes who set up this forum! But he has posted here, and some of his articles have been posted at length. Say thanks to Pawtucket! His is the hard work. Many others have contributed to the predecessors of TWI and others are carrying on the work elsewhere. There's a group on Facebook, if you're interested, and another forum elsewhere - Exwayvision.

Hap, I knew some great folks in Denver, long ago. I wonder how many of them are still around? Or, were, maybe. Other places in Colorado, too. Sad.