Twinky

Yes, BA, and using the "you" form for 2nd person sing (probably started long ago as a sort of politeness or formality, to add distance, as some languages like Spanish still do) - using "you" also loses the comfortable intimacy of the real 2nd person sing (thee/thou) which was more laterly used for family, friends, people you know well or at least are familiar with. Helps you know status and standing, if you like, to use a TWI-type expression. Not sure that thee/thou was always reserved for closeness, but for a KJV equivalent it would be worth a look at Shakespeare to see when he used thee/thou and its other forms. Certainly he used it between intimates (eg Hamlet and his buddies) - and between people of roughly similar rank or from a higher person to a lower person; not sure that the lower person (the peasant, rascal, whatever) would commonly use it to address the duke, king, lord, etc. But then again - it's a literary device so may not strictly adhere to "normal" usage of the time, though it should not be egregiously different.

JAL is such a sad case. Needs to get out more. Needs to meet with CHRISTIANS who know what it is to BELIEVE God. I should so love to see some of these ex-Way leaders in really challenging situations...as a Christian in Afghanistan; as a peasant in some parts of Africa; in a slum in India; or even on a soap box - in Beijing. If they survived unscathed and their model for believing stood up after six months of that - they might have something worth teaching. Maybe they would realize how shallow they are now. If JAL survived, he could even have something to talk about.

EW Bullinger describes the Idiom of Permission in his book "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible." In my book on p.823 subheading 4: "Active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do." This link may help: FoS. Be aware it is a very big document. If you do a Find on permission, the fourth item is p.808 which I think will be the same as my book's page 823. It is not a TWI-thing, but TWI undoubtedly picked up on this Idiom and gave it their own idiosyncratic interpretation. You might find this link entertaining - do get down to the end: Dialectical use And this one: Yorkies Thee/thou/tha etc are pretty much out of use now except in rural Yorkshire and Lancashire, where they're still commonly to be found. These forms used to be much more common in Derbyshire (near where I was brought up) - tha'd be 'ard put to it, lad, to find 'm now. (= you'd find it difficult, young man, to find them now) Okay, seriously now: Oxford Online Dictionary In passing, I'd remark (and this is totally off topic) that under the heading no.4 above, it mentions Mt 6:13 from "the Lord's prayer" - "lead us not (ie, suffer us not to be led) into temptation." I have been pondering this phrase for a little while now but not actually got round to researching anythng about it. All I know is that God himself - does not lead us into temptation - not to test us nor to trick us out. Not no ways. So the traditional meaning (?) according to the usual words can't possibly be right. I'd wondered if that must be the Idiom of Permission but hadn't looked it up. Sur-pri-ise!!! Oh you've posted something else while I was putting this together.

Interesting you should raise this. "Thou" (or "thee") is second person singular. Its possessive is "thine" or "thy", approximately equivalent to French "tu" or German "du" "You" = "ye" is second person plural. Possessives: "your" "yours" French: vous If you work through some of the passages in the OT you will get quite a different perspective of some passages when you realize that they are in 2nd person singular. It can mean (a) that the Israelites as a group were being addressed as if they were one; or (b) makes it very personal to the individual and therefore very much more intimate and there is a greater sense of personal responsibility. The standard English dictionary is the Oxford. It comes in several versions from the Pocket version through Concise version which is the most common words up to the Shorter (which is actually two large volumes) - so what the non-Shorter version is...is probably a library. I found this website which might help: My link can't speak for how reliable it is. I notice one of its footnotes refers to the Oxford Dictionary. (None of this author's notes refer to "silly women" though this is specifically referred to in the Shorter Oxford!) I note also that "prosper" isn't in the link above, either. "Prosper" doesn't particularly have to do with financial gain. It means to "thrive" or do well. Plants in a garden archaically could "prosper" if they grew well. An idea, course of action, etc, might or might not "prosper" someone, not in the sense of bringing in lots of dosh but more that it was good overall for their wellbeing. Although the "thou" form is archaic in much spoken English, it survives as a dialect form particularly in the north of England though is more or less extinct further south (I was brought up with "thou"). I believe the "thou" form may also be widely spoken still in some Caribbean islands from when the slave trade exported people and the language just didn't quite keep up with modern developments.

They've trademarked "LEAD" (!) Victor and Stacy are "LEAD Staff" - administrative staff, maybe, but I wonder what their real climbing experience is? Not into traveling light, are they? Those kids have the most enormous packs. I don't take half that apparent weight when I clear off into the bush for three weeks with all my food, kit and everything. Their party (camping) gear certainly isn't decent lightweight stuff.

He's sure, and after May 21 there will be 5 months of dreadful happenings until the world finally explodes in a fireball five months later, in October 2011. He's "not embarassed" by his wrong prediction earlier ("there was a question mark about that") but he is sure about the date this time. There's absolutely no doubt about it. Maybe it's the date he gets raptured or whatever. Maybe he'll have a heart attack o a stroke (he is 89) and life as he knows it will end. Well, I won't be quitting my job (not difficult since I don't have one) and I won't stop looking for a job either. I feel sorry for those who he's taken in, but it's for them to understand the Bible and know what God says. "Like a thief in the night" generally means without warning and without prediction, LOL. Not based on some "scientific evidence" allegedly found in the Bible.

I'm enjoying this discussion! Like many of you, I'm fed up with the constant bang-bang-bang-bang of music which seems to be all beat and no sensitivity. I look at the words on the display and here we are singing the same chorus for the how-manyth time and I'm bored and wonder how much longer this is going to go on for. The band often comprises a couple of guitarists, drums, bongo/other percussion, sometimes the organ - you can never hear the organ or the flautist above the racket the guitarists make. Others seem to enjoy it but I quite often zone out (sit down with my fingers in my ears and try to think of something else - have been known to make an excuse and leave the church for a while). I raised it with the minister and it was a fudgy response and no change whatsoever, got worse if anything. We have a new minister starting soon. Will see what he does. Mind you, some of the Sing Along the Way songs have been played very plonk-plonk-plonk with a lack of the grace notes, trills, other little bits that make something a bit more interesting than plain 4/4. Such a long time since Thank you Dorothy, so I can't really remember (and nobody remind me please!) but wasn't that quite plonk-plonk-plonk? In the house group I used to go to, they thought it very strange if nne of of people who could play piano were there. The house group wouldn't sing unaccompanied. Not like your average twig fellowship, where having a musician was rare.

Looks like quite a lot of these: Link 1 Or you could spend it here: Link 2 and do something more useful. And this is probably where the interest paid on the money owed by the US is being spent, by the lender: Link 3

It is rather disturbing that there has been a different version of events each day since the killing. Whatever kudos might (or might not) be attributable to the operation, it's losing "cred" with each version. I can rejoice that he can't scheme and finagle and cause any more harm to people. I can't rejoice that he's dead. Clearly a man of talent, ability and passion. A leader. A strategist. Regrettably all channeled in the wrong direction. It so much easier to fight against something. Imagine how it could have been, if he'd taken that talent, ability and passion and used that to bring advances to his own country. If he'd thrown his money at building better housing, sanitation, job opportunities, etc at the young people of his country - instead of throwing the young people of his country (and other countries) to murder and injure ordinary people going about their business. What a waste. Live by the sword (or bullet, or explosion) - die by the sword, bullet or explosion. He reaped what he had sown.

Of course, having time to actually use a library would be a precursor to having a decent selection of reputable books. Though, in the beginning, wasn't "study hall" held in the library? Dunno, I only got to clean up the library just before Emporia was sold off. Some of the books were actually taken to put in the library (?) at HQ.

Here in the UK there have been all sorts of celebrations. For local celebrations, one church in my city had a read-through which I think took nearly a week, being read aloud 24 hours a day - by people who just went in and volunteered to read a few verses or chapters or for a period of time. Other churches have been handwriting the whole KJV - again, shared between all the congregation and anyone else who cares to come along.

From Samos we island-hopped back to Athens and the airport. Some of the islands nearer in were horrible, touristy, fearfully expensive and just plain unpleasant to be on. It was difficult to find ferry timetables to see where else could be got to, because there are (were) lots of little ferry businesses going all over the place. All the islands have ferry connections, but they may not be daily. One place (Mykonos), we got the first available ferry off the island, but still had to sleep one night on the beach the first night and the second night sleet on some greedy Greek woman's flat roof at more for the night than the week in the nice apartment in Samos cost. Her guest house was stuffed with tourists but she had two couples on the roof as well. Things might have changed a bit, of course.

I stayed on Samos when I went to Greece - oh, 30 years ago. It was really lovely. It's a nice "wet" island (therefore green and not parched). We rented a small apartment for a week - for the same amount it cost us for a night on some of the islands closer in towards Athens. There were day trips to Patmos and to Athens. There's enough to do on Samos. It was relaxed but delightful. One day, we rented small motorcycles and roamed around the island. Can get to all sorts of isolated and even less touristy places that way. I have most excellent memories of that time. Things might have changed in 30 years, but it's still a long way out from Athens and the other really popular big islands.

Maintaining old historic buildings can be very expensive. A "bag with holes," if you like. Don't blame TWI. They, along with all subsequent purchasers, bought the problem...but how much is the repair cost really worth it? Logically a lot of these old building should be demolished and rebuilt...not cost-effectaive to repair...but then lots of history gets lost. The question is: what price history? Maybe it should be sold for $1 on condition that the new purchaser puts it into good repair, and gives a bond to that effect.

Stonehenge: is in a V formed by two main roads. It is impressive, but not as impressive as you'd think, to look at. It's smaller than you'd think. People are no longer allowed to wander around the stones, which are roped off to prevent damage. It's impressive in the workmanship - many of the stones came from very long distances away. They would have been transported by water so far...but then, the location is in the middle of rolling hills. Experts think the huge stones were rolled on logs. Certainly it was "pre-wheel." Other stones came from other far flung locations. If you do get there, be sure to visit Avebury (which I've always considered more impressive); and some of the other henges and barrows in the area (of which there are many). One is a Long Barrow (a very ancient tomb) which can be entered. It's not far from Salisbury, which has an ancient cathedral and the mediaeval woodwork forming is still inside the spire. A roof tour is well worth the small amount to pay. Now back to the regular topic: Patmos is only a small island, not much doing; their thing is their connection with St John. Apart from that, not much else. Friendly locals though. Avoid the tat sold as souvenirs. No beach that I can recall. Ephesus is just a spit away. Have a great trip.

First - congratulations to Johniam in post #30 for trying to bring this back to topic! (After all the slagging off he's received for dragging things off-topic) Cara, the "Common Market" was set up originally as an "anti-war" strategy. If it makes peace, you'd have to say in fact that it is spiritually good. (Not that I'm saying any such thing. It's not "spiritual.") Germany had been the aggressor in two world wars. Europe was devastated and financially was in a mess. The idea historically behind the "Common Market" - what became the EEC - European Economic Community and is now known as the European Union - is that the economies of the participating countries would become so inter-dependent that one country could not wage war on another without seriously damaging its own financial stability. Thus, the potential destabilisation of one's country's economy would deter from attacking another country. We now have a new currency, the "euro" in many EU countries. It's like using the dollar in all States, not a shekel in NY, a barrel in TX or a sea shell in CA and working out currency equivalents. Not all countries have given up their own currency to subscribe to euros. Britain, for instance, still has the pound £ as its currency.

It had its good parts. And it had its bad parts. It was traumatic, disruptive, and damaged me psychologically. I am aware that some of my reactions or responses are not what they would have been otherwise. I also reflect on what I've got from it...depths of understanding and compassion that I would have said were there, but actually weren't. Clients come to see me. They explain their predicaments. I ask a few questions...and then I can say, and it was like this, wasn't it? and like this? and does this happen? And they look at me with tears in their eyes or running down their faces, and they say: "You know. You understand." There's a connection at that "heart" level. Then clients tell me what they've really got problems with. As a pre-Way professional in a similar role...I really didn't understand. Couldn't understand. And too many professionals in the same role...still don't understand. The psychological trauma from domestic abuse, in particular, is far more widespread than you might think. Many (wo)men don't recognise it as such. Emotional abuse. Financial abuse. Sexual abuse. Far more widespread than physical violence. And they have to be able to recognise it before they can even begin to take actions to change something. Walk away. Stand up for themselves. Make the domestic situation different. Wayfers don't have exclusives on that.

Under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, in the UK convictions are "spent" after a period of time (around 10 years) and don't need to be disclosed unless specifically required to be disclosed on, for example, job applications. It means people are not punished in perpetuity and there is an incentive to "stay straight" and clear (to some extent) one's name. A reduction in recidivism (repeat offending) has got to be good for society. The conviction is not deleted from one's criminal record - it just doesn't have to be disclosed to all and sundry, and cannot be referred to in most contexts. Got to be good if you were a stupid young man or had a rotten beginning and have cleaned your act up. If someone screws up their late teens or 20s by being a bit of a hell-raiser but by the time they've got to their 30s or 40s and have learned a bit of responsibility, why should they continue to be treated like a 20 year old hell-raiser? Anyway, FYI here's a link to an easy-read website: Rehabilitation of Offenders - spent convictions Other countries also have much more rehabilitative schemes. Restorative justice, restoration of offenders, and all that stuff. This really ought to be a separate topic....oops.

Good gried, OS, that's outrageous. How long do all those penalties lasdt? How long till someone can vote again, receive Federal aid, etc.? Surely these things are time-limited, though the article doesn't say so. The US doesn't seem very good at rehabilitating people back into society, but surely punishment doesn't go on...and on...and on.

Thanks, BA. And yes, Loy used to talk about it as a step to "one world" government and devil-control, or whatever...without (it seemed to me) thinking of all those US states all falling under Federal jurisdiction Holland is The Netherlands (not just "in" The Netherlands). Do you really not think of the US as being one block? Do you-all think of yourselves as being Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc first, and then American second? Or are you American first, then Texan/Californian/Alaskan etc. Maybe you do think of yourselves by State, since each State is so big and the lot of you are so much one continent (excluding Hawai'i). Certainly in the EU people see themselves as Brit, or French, or Spanish...and then European. In Britain we might also think of ourselves as English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish before thinking of ourselves as British. And some Brits are not altogether sure they are or want to be Europeans. Like Europeans are some other species. Maybe French and Germans (the original EU countries, straight after WW2) would think more of themselves as Europeans...but each country is still so different. For anyone that's interested: European Union The European Parliament is now the highest rule-maker for each country...it makes laws and countries have to bring their own legislation into line with it. This is not always a welcome or happy process (says she, in true Brit fashion, understating how things go!). Anyway, sorry, this has gone way .

Went to church this morning. Usual laid back stuff. Lots of jolly songs, some old, some new. People waving hands in the air. Invitations to do this or that - or just sit and enjoy being where you are. Some of the younger church members wrapped in toilet paper to represent grave wrappings - which they then burst out of (sermon was on Lazarus - Jesus offers (1) promise; (2) words of comfort; (3) a new reality). I wept for the freedom of it. To be able to rejoice. To express joy and rejoicing. Free indeed. The Lord is RISEN. REJOICE!!

Spent a lot of time with my great grandfather, who died aged 94. Old and full of days. And later with my grandfather, who died "prematurely" at 84. Legend there is that he befriended a young workman working on the house next door, helped him, fed him... and the young man broke in to steal from my grandfather's hous. The shock depressed him badly and he died a few months later. Nothing proven, of course, but his giving heart...gave up. It's amazing what our old folks have lived through. The changes they have seen. Their oral histories. We need to cherish our old folks. Part of the richness of our culture. My mum always says: "I may be 80 [she's older than that] on the outside, but on the inside I'm still 18." It's the body that gets old. The mind doesn't - it often stays interested and curious. Never too old to learn. Good on all those folks here who are doing degrees and other studies in their 40s, 50s and older. Live long and prosper [thrive].

Lovely! Happy Easter to you all, too. Rejoice!!!

I remember Lovely Loy sounding off one day (well...more than once) about the European Union and all the countries working together for closer economic union. He had lots of scathing things to say. And (as a European) I could only think, "Keep your bloody nose out of it!" Who is he to make a statement about Europe, or my own country? What does he know about their politics, individually or collectively? Does he even know where these countries are? My view is in no small measure based on how little most Americans know about Europe - not knowing the countries, or which major city is in which country, etc, etc. I also thought: that Lovely Loy or his "advisers" perceived the larger economic unit of Europe a threat to US economic interests. With a bigger block and more countries working together, the US economy perhaps couldn't pick off or wedge into smaller countries and use those as a foothold for more economic oppression. And I further thought: yeah, all right for you to say that...now...now that your States are all one block. Do you want to disband the US union because that union is so evil? No, thought not. You just want to stop others achieving the benefits of cross-border business, multi-nationalism, etc. Call me carnal-thinking if you like. His opinion wasn't based on anything other than his "spiritual revelation" and we all know how that ended up. With apologies to those Europhiles among you who do know that Madrid isn't a city in Italy...LOL. And Belgium is not the capital of Holland...ah, where?

Explain class 3 felony please. All I see is he pleaded guilty...to fraud or deceit. Sounds unpleasantly serious. I did find this: "With a felony conviction comes a substantial penalty. Class 3 felonies can be punished by incarceration in state prison for anywhere from 2-10 years. Convicted felons can also face fines of as much as $10,000. A person convicted of a non-violent Class 3 felony may not be sentenced to prison at all. He may get a shorter sentence in a county jail or even a long probation sentence." I had to check out what "class 3 felony" means. How interesting that Wikipedia notes: "The reform of harsh felony laws that had originated in Great Britain was deemed "one of the first fruits of liberty" after the United States became independent." Whereas nowadays the harsh laws of the US are scary and outrageous by Brit standards...but that's another thread. Suffice to say - he knew better...what a conman. Learned well.