Twinky

Thanks, Excie.

Way off relevance, Johniam. Integrity...just is. I don't agree there has to be another party. It's a state of mind and behavior from which others may benefit. As to That's also nothing to do with it, but if you want to take it as simply meaning "steal" - Vic stole the Word from us by planting some counterfeit (very close to the original, doncha know?) in our minds. Most of us here are still trying to work out which bits are real and which bits are counterfeit. As to what the phrase means... :wacko: whatever Vic wanted it to mean, really. The conman has defined the terms, given us a catchy little phrase - to stop us thinking what it means. He had no integrity. His state of mind and his behavior was seriously compromised. Which may or may not (and I know that you, Johniam, don't agree) compromise what he says "the Word" says. Vic was the one who stole, killed and destroyed the Word for many people here. There are some who have been so disgusted (or worse) by what he "taught" that they have turned their backs on Christianity and follow other religions - or none. Remind me again - on whose behalf was Vic working?

Just to say, this is an interesting and entertaining discussion that I'm following even though not posting. My contribution then: Remember it's all about heart (relationship). Don't magnify the words above the relationship. We see as through a glass darkly - one day we shall know it and understand it all. Till then - do what you know to do. Don't stress over the small stuff. I think one of the biggest lies from TWI is that (if you like) the diary notes and "to do list" became more important than the One whose diary notes and "to do list" they are.

None so blind as those that will not see.

Part of it was tied up with the teaching that it was "only words," and real swearing was taking the Lord's name in vain. I learned some very interesting swear words that I'd never heard before...from "teachings" by LCM. As if developing a foul mouth really endears us to the people we are trying to win to Christ. Yeah, right. Part of our "freedom in Christ," doncha know, to be able to come out with words that are culturally offensive. Though while I recall LCM f'ing and blinding at the Corps - I don't recall that anyone would speak to him in the same tone - oh no - had to be respectful to the man-o-Gawd. Double standards...

Explain Mrs W's poodle, please. Or post the relevant bit??

I like men with neatly-trimmed beards. Problem solved. Nobody needs to shave. Not even squirrels.

Wasn't that also mentioned in PFAL? That man was to eat of it, but not just at that time? But "jumped the gun"? But ... "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." Now as regards that expression: Meaning The rash or inexperienced will attempt things that wiser people are more cautious of. Origin 'Fool' is now a more derogatory insult than it was when this proverb was coined, in the early 18th century. At that time a fool wasn't a simpleton, lacking in intelligence, simply someone who had behaved foolishly. 'Fools rush in...' has a precise derivation, in that it is a quotation from the English poet Alexander Pope's An essay on criticism, 1709: Such shameless Bards we have; and yet 'tis true, There are as mad, abandon'd Criticks too. The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read, With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head, With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears, And always List'ning to Himself appears. All Books he reads, and all he reads assails, From Dryden's Fables down to Durfey's Tales. With him, most Authors steal their Works, or buy; Garth did not write his own Dispensary. Name a new Play, and he's the Poet's Friend, Nay show'd his Faults - but when wou'd Poets mend? No Place so Sacred from such Fops is barr'd, Nor is Paul's Church more safe than Paul's Church-yard: Nay, fly to Altars; there they'll talk you dead; For Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread. The 'fools' that Pope targetted there were the literary critics of the day. Which actually fits quite well with what we learned from PFAL. A supposed expert (VPW) sets himself up - as expert, The Teacher - but "The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read,/ With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head,/ With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears,/ And always List'ning to Himself appears./ All Books he reads, and all he reads assails..." DocVic assailed and assaulted and wrested everything he read. It's difficult to work out what's straight and what's twisted with him. I read the Adam & Eve and serpent story as allegorical now. We all have our own snakes, "apples" - temptations and choices - that we need to address on a daily, hourly, basis. There is a cost, sometimes very heavy cost, to making a choice in defiance of what we know to be right, taking into account all that we know or should know. The snake as a "shining one" - a minister of light - and haven't we all met those! Is perhaps this Genesis account one about not following false prophets, ministers disguised as "shining ones"? 2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Maybe part of the choice we face daily is to avoid following false prophets, whatever form they take - in the church or simply following the media line.

Just when you think it can't get any more gross...yeuk, OperaBuff. And you and the two girls stuck it out - oops, I mean, stayed there - for the whole year...?! (Paw, why can't there be a "vomit" icon?) What's the betting that there won't be "sexual safety" "rules" in the new WoW program? Or are the new recruits too pure to think of such things?

Welcome, PatAnswer! You might (since you've been a lurker for a while) have seen other threads on critical thinking. Many of us here feel as you do. It's very liberating to be able to use your God-given brain for ... thinking!! Think on, and expect some suprises.

I have a genuine degree in a very difficult and challenging subject that requires a lot of careful thinking. Plus further professional training, on top of that, and a sort of professional apprenticeship for two years (so an intense six years training) in highly respectable profession. I come to TWI. They think they have a feather in the cap for this smartie. Trouble is, a degree teaches you to think. Think of good ways to do things. Ask questions like, Why? When you see something that you don't understand or which doesn't seem logical - you ask - "Why? Not to be argumentative, but to understand better. And thinking is not what was encouraged in TWI. So many times I got: You are leaning to your own understanding. You are not meek to the Word. You do not follow instructions. You do not submit. They made me feel - ashamed (!) for having studied, qualified, got my professional stuff under my belt. Ashamed that I could think things through - but it didn't agree with some of what they taught. Ashamed of the brain that God has given me. Ashamed of the uniqueness that God has given me. Ashamed of wanting to help people. Because what I qualified in could really help people in the here and now. And from that, those people could have been led into dealing with their spiritual needs. I trained in that profession because I wanted to help people - not to make megabucks. They stole that. They stole my critical thinking ability. They stole my self-confidence. And it was all because of jealousy. Jealous that worldly skills could do something that their bullying self-aggrandising "training" could not achieve. Thank God that he can make a "plan B" in our lives, to try to get us back to where He wanted us in the first place. Or some other place that we can carry out the works that He has before ordained that we should do.

Haven't had too much attrition among age groups similar to my age - but older and much older ones...and younger ones... Most posters here are in the 50-59 age group. What, did that generation come out of the womb with some special dose of gullibility?

Yep, we Brits are glad to be free of our wayward child...! (tongue in cheek) Hope you guys all have a good day of family and community fun. I remember flying into Denver to stay with some believers - arrived early evening of 4 July - nobody was home - everyone was BBQing in the park! And bless 'em, these people still made space for me, a stranger. I went to the American Museum in my city today. A free "open day." Yesterday they had events, re-enactments, bands, heaps going on. A real party. Okay. Barbecue on!!

A different topic, Kit. Abortion. Perhaps a painful one, too, for some people here. Soulie: not a nice couple. Druggies...how to deal with them...that's another topic, too. So much interweaving on crime and punishment. A quick end to things is good. Whatever that end is. If the woman Melinda had had treatment for her addiction to prescription drugs, none of that crime incident would have happened. Six lives needlessly damaged, snuffed out. Not to mention the families of each of those six. Her choice to seek proper treatment, though.

Heer in the UK the trial has just concluded with the conviction of an ugly male who preyed on young girls. He was already serving life for murder of some other girls; yesterday he was convicted of murdering Millie Dowler, a young teenager (13 years old) who disappeared without trace and her remains were found 6 months later. It seems that the murderer has a penchant for young teenage girls (apparently known as hebephilia, which is nothing to do with liking Hebes, rather nice plants). Joking aside, this man doesn't have a handle on reality, treats others with utter disdain, and has preyed on many young women, murdering some. The day before he snatched Millie, he tried to snatch another young teenager but luckily for her, she managed to get away. The evidence regarding Millie is circumstantial, but incontrovertibly against him. He now has another whole-life tariff. He will never be released. And that's very good for all young teenage girls. It's good for society, that he is forever locked away. Is it good for him? He still denies it. Should he be executed? We don't have capital punishment in the UK, so it's not an option. Right now, there aren't many people who would be sad if he were dead. As a kiddy-fiddler in prison, he might not last long anyway. Those men are kept in a separate prison or at least separate wing of a prison, for their own safety. Huh. Levi Bellfield - serial predator Millie Dowler - teenage victim

It's a good point, Soulie and Waysider, but not for this thread. It's been discussed before and maybe you could resurrect an older thread. The idea of the "God of the OT" and the "God of the NT" being "different" is explained by other churches well enough without Way theology. Now back to the regularly scheduled program, mstar, I agree with you. That nasty legalistic b@$tard Saul wouldn't be everyone's favorite guest knocking on the door. When you think about his past, the people he had hauled off to prison, tortured and had executed...and then he says, there is NO CONDEMNATION to those in Christ Jesus...what guilt must he have overcome? And the people he worked with in the years immediately after his conversion - what forgiveness they must have had! Ananias and his fellowship in Damascus - who themselves rescued Saul/Paul from people who would have killed him! - Barnabas who protected him and introduced him to Christians in Jerusalem...these first Christians who had quite probably had friends and relatives arrested by Saul were the very ones who protected him later. Paul was legally authorized, though, on his rampages. He had letters of authority to seize these "heretics." Does that make a difference? We don't hold it against a public executioner when he executed a convicted criminal. Maybe our attitudes to capital punishment reflect our own views on forgiveness?

Yes, soulie, but there are a lot of other records where execution was the penalty...and was never carried out. That one seems more of an aberration than the norm. I don't seek to explain it. mstar, yes, and the capital punishment that could have been meted out to the woman caught in adultery...what did the One righteous one do? Didn't throw the stone...showed compassion and forgiveness. Therefore we have to assume that is what God wants too. He does not seek people's deaths but rather their change of heart. The OT is full of that...God just wanting people to change their minds and return to him, no matter how bad they had been. People as a nation, and people as individuals. He seeks their return in heart to him. If someone is executed...they have absolutely no possibility of repenting, returning in heart to God. No possibility of ever reflecting on what they've done (no matter how heinous). There are all manner of people alive today who have led bad lifestyles - and repented. Nicky Cruz, for example, a notorious gang leader, violent in the extreme - now leads a huge Christian outreach ministry...because one man, David Wilkerson, was prepared to love him as God loves him. David Wilkerson Nicky Cruz Cruz very carefully doesn't confess to murder in his autobiography...but read his lifestyle...his violence was extreme. He was the kind of man you really would like to lock up and throw away the key forever - if you didn't fry him or hang him or shoot lethal drugs into his arm. Other men have also been converted in prison and had prison ministries that have led others to God.

True too, but what then is to stop a convict, then, from pursuing the ambition to be the baddest of the bad? Even incarcerated criminals deserve protection from the baddest of the bad.Was it "better" for those convicted at the Nuremburg war trials to be executed straight away, or for the last survivor, Hess, to be imprisoned until he died - aged 93 - in Spandau prison? There must be information about this: what are crime rates compared by state, in the US? In those states where capital punishment is permitted, is there a higher or lower level of violent crime? (In other words, does capital punishment have a deterrent effect?) Is the existence of capital punishment a failure of the society in which it sits?

Someone who didn't fake it till she made it. All interesting, but the bit that I was thinking of in connection with this thread starts about 3/4 the way down the article: Corrie on Funding her work

True, there are apparent instructions for genocide...but was it always carried out? eg 1 Sam15:3 Amalekites were to be "totally destroyed" - and it appears they were all except for kind Agag - but not too long later, in chapter 30 there were enough Amalekites to raze Ziklag and carry off the inhabitants. It's also clear that although the tribes were to clear the Promised Land of previous inhabitants - that never happened and there are dire warnings about intermarriage and settling down with the inhabitants. Thje punishment for adultery was death by stoning...was King David or Bathsheba stoned? No, and their union was blessed. And that's despite David ordering the cover-up murder of the cuckolded husband. Lots of behaviour in God's eyes is "worthy of death" - does that mean that sentence was carried out? Only rarely, it seems. "Worthy of death" and actual execution are quite different. That's where God's grace and mercy come in. Again, Saul/St Paul before his conversion was a horrible man who dragged people off for torture for heresy, and execution. Yet through his evil religiously-motivated acts, the new converts were scattered and God worked through that for good, spreading the gospel over all the Mediterranean area. I've just finished reading The Hiding Place - Corrie Ten Boom's story. It's well reported that she was able to forgive a concentration camp guard who had abused her and her sister. Corrie meets the SS guard During her imprisonment and after her release she continued to pray and work for these very abusers, to effect their restoration and reconciliation. I used to think that murderers and such like really ought to be executed. TWI really didn't help soften such a hard attitude. In recent years I have mellowed markedly and I really don't know what an appropriate punishment is. So many things go into the mix that makes someone who they are and who they become...and only some of those things are that person's choice or "fault."

Johniam on the Zachary Brodeau thread said this: This is an interesting topic and perhaps merits some discussion time here. Some people have been involved in prison visiting and may have useful points of view. Others may have been victims of heinous crimes and might have a different point of view. Do you think there is a case for capital punishment - sometimes? never? always in some circumstances? I put up a poll...but only to get people thinking. What sort of crimes might merit that - if you agree it ought to happen? And how does that fit with God's grace towards all?

Teaching...part of Way jargon. The Oxford Dictionary defines teaching as: and for the avoidance of doubt, "mass noun" is: Teachers teach...a lesson or lessons ...not a teaching, or teachings. A music lesson. A French lesson. Driving lessons. A collection of works by a teacher might conceivably be his "teachings." So in fact...that was a fine lesson that JAL taught not...a fine teaching that JAL taught But of course if they used normal language it would reduce the mystique. Like instead of saying a "teaching" they called it a "sermon" (isn't that what the main talking part of a church service is called, hmm?) - or some church services might call it a "message" or a "talk" - but I've never heard any other denomination call that part of a service - a "teaching." In churchy things, "lesson" is reserved for the Bible reading (which might nowadays simply be called the "reading"). But hey, when has TWI and its derivatives really cared for correct English (or any other language) if it could cloak itself in special words and special understandings... Teacher, teach thyself...

Must be something in the Colorado water. I was struck by the resemblance between Hirschfeld's get-rich-quick scheme and this one reported by johnj on his anti-Way website: (Click here:) "Ex-Way Leader Convicted of Crimes Committed While in TWI" -- Articles from the Denver Post on Rick Panyard's adultery and conviction on fraud-related crimes. Haven't seen accusations of Hirschfeld having a string of women...but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

umm...Waysider, why're you asking? Ya need to ask the Cafe waiter for a new menu? You having a relapse? And what's with this new avatar, Moon Pie? Or is paste what's in Moon Pies???

It's a sort of Slumdog Millionnaire story, isn't it? He's clearly bright, resourceful, and adaptable. Be grateful for the education that was made freely available to you. What could a young man like that have achieved, with a decent education? Hope he gets the opportunity now of both a good education, and of enlarging his vocal talent.