Twinky

Clever, dmiller. Does that mean that the concept of pyramid selling is set in (soap)stone? Soapstone

Nice deflection, Johniam, but working fast food is not "living the Word" at TWI HQ. Though the manner of delivery of instructions/orders might be "screaming" we're not talking about outrageous delivery but outrageous statements. I can agree with you that most of what LCM said was outrageous and delivered in outrageous manner...but that's not quite this thread. LCM was good at outrageous statements. I don't want to go dredging around in the back of my mind looking for any specifics. I'm having quite a nice life without him and his venom. He had his own "God spoke to me" moments. One I recall is when he felt God put his "hand" on his head and turn his head so that LCM saw something that God wanted him to. Was it true? Dunno. I did perceive it at the time as being "God always shows me - you can't hide."

This is the word translated as "comforter" and you'll see it appears only 5 times: ================= The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 3875 Original Word paravklhtoß a root word Transliterated Word Parakletos Phonetic Spelling par-ak'-lay-tos Parts of Speech Noun Masculine Definition summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor of Christ in his exaltation at God's right hand, pleading with God the Father for the pardon of our sins [*] in the widest sense, a helper, succourer, aider, assistant of the Holy Spirit destined to take the place of Christ with the apostles (after his ascension to the Father), to lead them to a deeper knowledge of the gospel truth, and give them divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the divine kingdom King James Word Usage - Total: 5 comforter 4, advocate 1 ================= If you read this as "another advocate" or "another to speak up for us" - that gives you an entirely different sort of understanding. The "Comforter" isn't some sort of big warm blanket, or a hug from a friend. Jesus himself prayed, asked of his Father, spoke up for, his disciples in his physical lifetime on earth. There are enough records of this to know that speaking up for his disciples to his Father wasn't an occasional event or something he did on an ad hoc basis. He did it regularly and committedly. He was the first "comforter" and, as he says in John 16:7, "another comforter" (holy spirit, Jn 14:26) won't come unless he, JC, goes. Paraklesis is derived from parakaleo (Strongs 3870), to call near, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation); beseech, call for exhort, intreat, pray. Knowing you have someone there, standing with you, standing by you no matter how stupid you've been, someone always ready to take your side, hold your hand - now that's a real comfort. We derive such comfort from being spoken up for, defended. Comfort from being loved...unconditionally...by someone who's always rooting for you.

I always had a big vision for seeing God BIIIGGG in people's lives. Even from a child I knew that God could do big and special things for people, and loved and cared for them. Guess I musta listened in Sunday School. I wanted to be a missionary in Africa. I had big visions for a life of service when I got involved in TWI. I enjoyed my WoW year and had big vision for the city (which didn't come to pass, but we certainly did find some excellent new people for our WoW twig who really saw God's love and care in their lives). I never had the ambition to be a big religious hotshot, and the idea of building up anything that made people look at me, as opposed to glorifying God, never entered my head (I think I fancied the adventure of the idea of going to Africa!). As we all know, TWI's ideas of service and other people's aren't quite the same. I wasn't the hard b----- they tried to turn me into, so they squashed and squished every idea and every attempt at service. I met some very frightening people - and they made a point of being frightening. Some who were not frightening to start with became so, with that constant "You are not obedient to the Word" condemnation of individuality. Having big vision is fine. Having ambition is fine. Having ambition to climb over and squash everyone else to achieve one's vision is dead wrong.

Exactly, allswell. Would be a steep learning curve for them. Have to teach themselves first. It's funny, really, because as individuals, I find Americans very generous, giving, and openhanded, and particularly within TWI, I found individual believers to be ready to give. As an International coming from a country with lower per capita income [not the UK], my WC tuition fees and little extras came in large part from US believers. Within my home country, the believers were very giving and sharing with each other and also with the WC they supported. And yet the parent organization is so tightfisted and hoards all the ABS, which individuals willingly (or maybe unwillingly) give, thinking that it will be shared out to those in need...but there's a big logjam in Ohio. But it's not all about the money. That's only a symptom of the hardheartedness and lack of genuine love and compassion - that again was often evident among individuals, but not the organization as a whole. "Do as TWI says - not as TWI does ..." Huh...

Nah, the no-mortgages policy came out way before that, Socks. As I understand it, VP mortgaged one of the campuses and it took a lot to pay off the loan. The mortgage deed (once repayment was effected) was then cut up into small pieces and distributed - to whom I'm not sure, but I do know someone who had a piece. VP said that having a mortgage put you under enslavement because you always had to work and work, to pay the interest on the mortgage. Under Martindale, that became part of his no-debt policy and went far too far. I'd have to agree, having a mortgage does cause worry. The monthly payment has to be met, regularly. It's not so easy to change to smaller, cheaper accommodation. It's not so easy if your location no longer meets your family's needs, for whatever reason. There is the thought of paying off large sums of money for decades. Some kinds of benefit/state aid may not be available, because you have a capital asset that you could (notionally) sell. But then again - rent has to be paid, or landlords tend to get rid of tenants. Large sums of money, sometimes exceeding what would be a mortgage payment, have to be paid, for decades - except that at the end of the decades, you're still renting. Whether one rents or buys, there is financial outlay. It should be left to individual families to determine what's best for them - not following everyone else and buying, if they can't afford it - nor renting, if it would be better for the family to live in an owned home. If the WC managed to own homes - huh, they wouldn't be moved on every few years...a loss of control over them. Or maybe the house-owning WC would move - but just rent their homes out to other people at something that would cover the mortgage payment. Maybe rent to the next Branch Coordinator or whatever. Martindale was proud that his family owned nothing, no property, but lived well. Yeah, because they'd nabbed the Log Cabin, which was supposed to be for ALL Way Corps; and they lived at virtually no cost on a campus with housekeepers, gardeners, chauffeurs, and any other kind of staff they could desire. I'd love to know his views now on some of those subjects he once pontificated so vehemently upon. And I wonder if his kids have taken out mortgages so that they can buy their own homes. Oh .. and VP said paying interest on a loan for TWI facilities was a waste of ABS. Yeah, sure was...but that doesn't mean the same principle should apply to private (non-TWI) facilities.

OB, "confidence" is another good word to use there. Myself, I shy away from anything like the "believing/faith" type of argument, which isn't an argument really but another way of causing division in the Body by teaching something that ... isn't really there. More of "doctor's" superior knowledge. What's left to teach? VPW was all about "gimme the money." Compare and contrast with George Muller, who dismissed people for not having complete confidence that God would meet needs - without money. That same George Muller, whose legacy survives today, whose "children" are still living and thankful for his life. Muller's bold believing/confidence is something we could really learn from. He did what the book said - not said what he said the book said.

Oh, do keep talking, Socks. (You can believe for an earthquake to get out of the Doctrinal cave, if necessary. )

The hype wasn't just that he could work at a Fortune 500 company - it was that he could be the CEO of said company. If he ran it anything like he ran TWI, it wouldn't be Fortune 500 or even Fortune 5,000,000 for very long. Yeah, so that claim ... was pretty outrageous. Or egregious. Or maybe just somewhere in outer space.

Roy ... what exactly is an Atheist Christian???

They could try teaching about the generosity and lovingness of God. They could try reading and teaching from the gospels, about the exemplary life of Jesus. They could try teaching humility, respect, generosity, not esteeming others greater than oneself, making themselves servants (ie really serving) others. They could try teaching "love" as being tender, and being like a nursing mother with their flock - instead of practicing "tough love" and bullying their flock. They could try teaching hospitality, and opening their doors to all, including the homeless and filthy off the street (think: what might be in Plurality Palace), those with addiction problems; those who need a break from the hardness of their lives. By "teaching" of course that would be by example, not by the mere words of their mouths. Waysider...really...there is sooo much more that they can teach. As to the things you mention in your opening post - can't say they've ever helped me in my relationship and walk with my Father. Worse, they've been a hindrance.

Rascal, I remember all of those statements. Wasn't there also something ... A request from a leader is just as much the Word of God as a command in the Bible ...? If a leader tells you to get a bucket of [water - or some such], you need to obey that just as you would a command from God. Maybe that was something from LCM's VP-worship book.

Johniam, as that's not about an outrageous statement in a TWI meeting, you might want to carry it on in your own personal soapbox. Johniam's personal soapbox

bump Hi Johniam, do carry on here...!

Not an option, though, for Internationals...we were expected to attend. The mighty US calls. For such reasons, the US is not seen favorably by overseas countries. However, if compelled (as TWI did) - well ... you just did it. I don't know how many US believers ever managed to visit Gartmore - was hardly running long enough. It really would have been much better to build up local expertise, dealing with the local culture, country by country... but TWI never operated that way. "Our way or no way." And it really didn't work in other countries. All that happened is that people were totally put off. And I agree with you, BA: I really don't think US believers would willingly make the trek regularly, year after year, to such an event. To ... such an event. Even if they did feel obliged to trek long distances across the US to such an event in Ohio. So what are we seeing here? It's wicked (good word, that, "wicked") to withhold lawful taxes. Does the IRS, or other countries' governments, lawfully require residents to pay taxes (tribute)? Yep, they sure do. Therefore, should one pay taxes? Yep. 'Fraid so. I don't see wiggle room here to maintain two sets of books. I'm sure God can cope with only having his share and not a part of Caesar's share also. The choice is : give Caesar (the government) what is rightly due to it; give to God what is rightly due to God. The rest is one's own. This account appears in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Three times: complete!! So in keeping two sets of books : who was TWI serving? (Like verses appear in Matthew and Luke) But of course - if you discourage (or worse, disallow) the Gospels and looking at the life of Jesus ... hey, what does his example matter, anyway? We live under grace now. Yeah, right.

Hmm, I thought it was Michael Jackson who copied AoS? Wasn't the "moon walk" devised by someone in TWI? And then, there was "His-story" which was some name devised by TWI. For all this "MJ copied TWI" - one day my Corps was told to watch a video of MJ dancing. Because even if he was so possessed, we could still learn from his skill in dancing. Or something like that. Too long ago to remember, really. Or maybe not "off topic" - they're certainly outrageous statements. Just not the most outrageous.

Wow, GSG, there was a real doctor in the house! And yes, as a chemist, you would be a Ph.D-type doctor not a MD-type doctor, but you're a highly qualified man nonetheless and justly entitled to the accolade. Bet DocVic never called you "Doctor" though.

GSG, were you a doctor at the time you were in TWI? And did anybody call you "doctor"? We could call you "DocG" here if you like. Or even just "doctor" - tarnished though that title is.

Double sets of books ... I've heard this before - perhaps from you, DWBH, perhaps from others. TWI's outstanding honesty and integrity is beyond compare. /sarcasm/ Love the way they set the standard and follow that principle, "Render unto Caesar [or the IRS] what is Caesar's..." This is that same organization, yes?, that said that ABS must be "donated" from gross income - not that income left after tax - because otherwise one was putting "man" before God, hmm? Thing is, they could have offset the charitable expenditure against tax anyway. That's if there'd been any charitable expenditure. Makes me wonder how much any actual charitable expenditure may have been pumped up.

Waysider, I'm bringing brown sauce, none of that tomato ketchup stuff for me. I'll bring some of that good old West Country Zomerzet cider too. Slurp, lovely,

Striking the difference in presentation in the two pictures. The first, they look nice, casual, a bit hippyish, naive kids. The second, they look seriously "Way-ized" in formal "casual" poses - already in the mold.

What Geer did was decide to institute an annual European get-together. He wanted that to become the venue for (at least) European believers. I went to such an event, in Amsterdam. It was a really great time, marred only by the presence of Geer. Then of course Gartmore was ready and events started happening up there. And that is a really good idea. Saves unnecessary expense and trekking across the world, and European travel is easy and can be done in many ways to suit time and budget. Enables people with a non-US outlook to meet and deal with the issues they face in a more acceptable manner. Or could have been. Geer's festival/get-together wouldn't be in midsummer, but was to be in winter (December/Jan). But that's not how it worked out. It was a power-grab. And even if it weren't a power grab, it could so easily have become a burden on European believers - all have to go to the European event, and then all have to go to the US event. It still doesn't address transport issues for other overseas believers - in Australia, New Zealand, India, Zaire (who were in fact supported by TWI, yes they were), even Scandinavia, who still have to get over an ocean somewhere. But it did give (or would have given) a choice and perhaps a cheaper option.

For sure a cash cow if you can make people come to it by laying on them a guilt trip if they don't make a Rock trip. For believers who lived overseas, it was a really big expense, what with air fares and all. Even if a discounted air fare to somewhere frequently visited was available, there were add-on costs to more local airports and the cost of getting from the airport to HQ. To not be able to make it to the Rock was to recognize that the transport expenses were huge, when coming from countries where wages are not at US levels and disposable income may not be much. One year, some attempt was made in the country where I was living to cater for faithful believers who couldn't afford all that expense. LCM's response: "F*** 'em, if they can't be bothered to get here, they can take care of themselves back at home." (Maybe that was part of a general response more aimed at US believers - but that's how it came down to us, overseas.) Some years, there were offers to pick up Internationals from Dayton or Columbus. But not every year. And sometimes it was just the kindness of staff who recognized the additional difficulties posed for Internationals, and went and collected them anyway. Out of all the money coming in...wouldn't it have been kind to share a little with the overseas people by covering the small expense of collecting them from an accessible airport? (After all, what was the motor coach for? - not that that was around in my time - but coaches and buses can be hired for a day or a week.) There wasn't even any help for International Corps whose only means of transportation was flying. So after my WoW year (so part-time wages) I still had to find full air fare back to the Rock. My WoW family clubbed together to give me something towards my expenses, bless 'em. HQ did give me the entrance ticket free and vouchers for food. Big deal. I didn't think of it at the time, just accepted it. International outreach? International grab, more like.

My Corps sis spent her interim year as Mrs W's housekeeper. She didn't enjoy it, for so many reasons. Always on call, on duty. Skivvy for everything, everyone. Never able to share any time with other interim Corps who were also working on campus. Worn out with - nothing. Yeah, Sky. Which of 'em hazarded their lives for the gospel? Which of them was there to serve? And which was there to be served? Back to topic now: does anyone know who was in the Zero Corps? And what has happened to them since that time? Have any gone on to train and serve as real ministers?

Dunno when you were in, sky, but LCM was the same, perhaps worse, denigrated whoever WC0 was - or no, perhaps that was WC1 - absolutely disgusted. Used his disgust at their lack of commitment to reinforce the unswerving commitment that we in rez were supposed to be developing. [Huh, do you reckon he ever knew any of them - ever?]. I was there when all those old-timers were announced as the "real First Corps" - Mrs Owens, Howard (I suppose), etc - I can't remember who was honored thus. But thinking about it now - I can't remember that Dorothea Wierwille was a part of the honorary "real First Corps". Even if she was "First Lady." Poor woman. Passed over...again. (Ugh, the ego of it all. :( )