Twinky

You got it, Waysider. It is three days later. Nessie still has indigestion. LNM: This indigestion is getting worse. CG: Wouldn't you like more harmony... LNM: More harm...?! CG: Help you separate truth from error! LNM: I would like to separate you from me. CG: You can learn to believe for healing! LNM: Eeling? Eels??!! CG: If you would just sign this green card, I can guarantee that it will bring ... LNM: Will you STOP banging that drum! CG: It's word over the water. LNM: (Has had enough) (vomits CG into a used lipstick-stained coffee cup)

Funny thread, thanks for bumping it, Ham. I'd like to see CG walking on Loch Lomond (near Gartmore). Hey, suppose he walked on Loch Ness (famed for its monster). CG: Nice day for a stroll. LNM: Get off my back! CG: Who said that? LNM: My name is Nessie and I have lived in this loch for thousands of years. CG: No, you and all your kind were wiped out with the first heaven and earth. LMN: What kind of creature are you anyway? Are you edible? CG: I am a human being and my kind have been around for 4000 years. LNM: I give you 4 seconds to get out of my space. CG: I will cast you out - you are just an evil spirit. LNM: (slurps) LNM: (thinks) Maybe that wasn't such a good idea...got indigestion now...

Wayfers can be very good at talking AT you and scarcely pausing for breath; not looking at you, but just coming out with their spiel. They will talk to you about being meek and ready to receive and they are the epitome of not being meek to anything other than Way teaching. Dialogue is meaningless. They only understand monologue and manipulation. Yes, it would be disrespectful to start pushing your views in an overt and argumentative way. But you can ask questions. Any other fellowship in any other denomination would probably be delighted if you'd visit. Wayfers tend to see you not as a visitor but as a prospect for their Class. Your wife might find the Wayfers she knows would start marking and avoiding her if she went to "visit" and didn't stay. How important is that to her? It may depend on how mature the Wayfers are in your area, and what they've been through themselves. Just because they avoid you (if they do), doesn't mean that you avoid them. You can still greet them if you see them in the street, in the store, at the game. If they back away in fear, just shows how small their pet God is. Do go, go a few times, stay aware, and tell us how it went.

Excie, you don't need to pick on Naten. He seems to be asking with genuineness. Part of what I learned growing up was to put things into my own words - own expressions. Showed I understood what I'd been taught. Tried that with a section of the Blue Book. You'd have thought I was speaking in Martian, for the "I don't understand" expressions on the faces of the TC and some of the others. Other places, stuff I'd worked for myself was received with interest. Think it all depended on how legalistic the TC was - how much s/he (though they were all "he") was prepared to adhere to the party line. Which would depend in part on how much he himself had been mentally beaten by TWI, and when. Corps raised under LCM and especially after his "toe the line" letter - toed the line. Older pre-LCM Corps allowed much more mental freedom until they themselves got reeled in. So, Naten...have you been to a fellowship yet? And if so, what did you think of it?

If you go - don't leave your critical thinking skills at home. Be kind, be considerate. But don't be a fool.

As far as money/tithes goes, as to supporting corrupt leadership - Jesus didn't say anything about not paying tithes and offerings. In fact, he approved a really broke woman paying all she had. And he himself paid his dues to the very people he said were "of their father, the devil" and "a brood of vipers." So what becomes of ABS is really irrelevant to Naten's question. If he goes and if the horn of plenty is passed (or whatever they use nowadays) then he simply doesn't put anything in it. So much depends on who runs the fellowship, at the twig level. Some will be run by great people who genuinely love and care for those in the twig. Some are run by autocrats who themselves want to be seen as the fount of all knowledge. Some of the best people I have met have been at twig level. In fact, Naten, go a few times. After a month, count how many times they ask if you've taken the class yet. Or if you ask a question, do they answer it themselves, or tell you that the answer is "in the class." Ask a lot of details about this class. Specifically, whether you can ask questions to clarify your understanding during the session, during the teaching. Betcha can't.

Looks like he was not walking in God's power! I don't wish ill to the man. It's clearly serious, and very stressful to Barbara and the children. I have this strange sense of deja vu - will his ill-health be blamed on the burden he is bearing for all believers? Will it become the believers' faults that he is so ill? (we already know what a VP-emulator he has been in the past!)

This is just plain neighborliness. It shouldn't come as a surprise. My Mum told me of a time when my Dad's motorcycle broke down - rainy night, miles from anywhere - people in the only house gladly provided help and shelter. The walking club I used to go out with got stopped by a swollen stream - our transport couldn't cross it - a farmer kindly lent his sheephands' place and about 20 people crammed into it. Two who went for rescue (in shorts, in the snow and rain - I forget all the details of why now) - were rescued by total strangers who let them sleep in their house overnight till the storm stopped. I have both rescued strangers in need and invited them into my home; and been rescued when I've had a need. Of course - one has to "walk" with care!!! Always be ready to lend a hand. For no thought of reward beyond meeting a need. In such a manner, we are told, some have entertained angels unaware. WoW!!!!!!

"For our learning"... What does this mean? FOR US TO LEARN FROM!!! How are we supposed to learn from it if we aren't allowed to read it? How can we apply the lessons taught, so that we ourselves, having supposedly greater riches, don't ourselves fall in weakness through not understanding. By not knowing the lessons that are FOR OUR LEARNING. The epistles are full of refs to OT incidents. How many regularly checked out the OT section(s) that were referred to, in order to gain a greater understanding? EG Rom 10:9,10 - refers back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 27-31 - what they were supposed to do when they entered the promised land. Okay, how is this applicable to us in OUR promised land of the renewed mind? What kind of things are we to keep in mind? What to do, and what not to do? Where are the snares and traps that could distract us? Yet the blessings and cursings ... were so that people could learn to love God and hear his voice! Plenty there that we can learn from! Reading the epistles is good. Reading the epistles with depth of understanding - is better. And engaging brain to work out apparent contradictions or odd incidents - is better yet. That's how we learn. Unless we are parrots.

Sir Isaac Newton Knowledge is cumulative and we don't need to keep re-inventing the wheel. We do need to check the wheel from time to time to see that it is still true, that the spokes aren't worn or broken...and be willing to get a new wheel if the old one is too warped to sustain further remedy. We know only in part...so we must be ready to change when new "parts" become accessible, quite often through cross-fertilisation of ideas. Only those who would keep us in ignorance and control us restrict ability to learn and outside sources of learning. Let's acknowledge those who have helped us as communities see further... Otherwise, we'd be living in caves, not built houses. And our houses would not have indoor sanitation. And that would only apply to those of us who fought off the ravages of many diseases that not so long ago used to kill people - now we have medicines to help us overcome diseases that are still killers in some countries.

Never mind "live above the law" - most of these self-appointed gurus live and lived way below the law - that's both God's law, and the law of the land. If they didn't/don't know - they ought to have done - therefore they are not worthy to teach others. If they did/do know - then the usual word is "hypocrite."

If you want inspiration about carrying on - check out the Paralympics - due 2012. Those athletes have bits of them missing r damaged ... and just don't let it stop 'em enjoying and competing in life, to the max. Two awesome athletes

Another excellent post, Socks, thanks. Just thought I'd update on the new Foodbank opening in my city. Referrals can be made by social workers, district nurses, advice workers, basically any professional or quasi-prof who is aware of the need. Persons assisted are given a voucher which they take to the pick-up point (a cafe run by a church in town). Applicants are given a drink and then asked what their needs are and ages of people - any special diets, vegos, likes and dislikes, etc. So people who hate pasta might get rice, and v.v. If you don't like tinned spaghetti (who does?!) then maybe you will get beans. There is some baby food available. Very early days yet, but they are trying hard to meet needs without being condescending or making people feel other than welcome. Of course, it is not all about food. Poorer people have other needs too. Warm clothing in the winter. Footwear that doesn't leak. Safe housing/shelter. Enough money so that it is not a choice between food on the table, and heating just one room in the home. Not everyone can provide everything; sometimes it's not right to. And a basic need is to be recognized. Poor, homeless, distressed people are still people. You might not want or be able to give money, but you can give the beggar on the street a smile. Pass the time of day. Ask him what his story is ... and become aware how thin the dividing line is between success and failure, wealth and destitution. The apparent problem often comes on the back of a relationship breakdown or death. Be amazed, sometimes, at how little provision there is for some groups of people. No wonder they turn to drink to drown their sorrows.

Can't say I ever think about what the "kingdom of God" might or might not be - I just get on with living life, doing the best I know to do, being compassionate and forgiving and non-judgmental. I never got on the TWI bandwagon about any particular meaning. I look at what people do and say - I don't get involved in their theological disputes. I'd agree "heaven" and "hell" are probably something quite different from what we have been taught - either by TWI or by most churches. There's probably a huge element of Greek mythology that has become incorporated into what we assume. I don't know what becomes of people who live what seems a Godly life who have never heard of God the Father of JC; I can't think (nor ever have) that God is so mean as to banish eternally those who have lived decent lives with honorable and Godly principles - just because they lived hundreds of years ago (or even now) in Africa or Asia or Russia or the Amazon rainforest and never heard of JC. I'd prefer such a person to a "Christian" who has such a perverted view that they hurt, maim or even kill other people for not thinking as they do. Paul's epistles speak of Gentiles with the "law" written in their hearts (Rom 2:14-15 for example) in very favorable terms. But no doubt that's a different discussion.

Interesting what you say, BB. A food bank has recently started in my city. It will give out to ANYBODY even though it sits under the umbrella of the Christian charity I support. In fact, there is a speaker coming tomorrow to talk to the Advice Volunteer service that I volunteer for; I will ask her about swapping unsuitable food. I suppose there is some attempt to cater for allergies but it would depend on what has been donated. One of the other charities in the city will also give occasional donations of a gift card at the local supermarket so that people can buy what they need. That charity gives out on the recommendation from my volunteer group. Of course, we advice volunteers will only recommend where we are sure there is a real need and it will be properly used and not spent on alcohol, cigs or other unnecessary stuff.

Tell more, Steve. Reviews seem to indicate that Bell's premise is that everyone is okay and/or that there is no "hell" and that everyone (especially Gandhi?) is all right with God. Does Bell say that everyone goes to "heaven"? In which case, what does Bell say is or was the purpose of Jesus?

I support a local charity which is funded mostly by local churches. The charity helps real "dregs" - people with addiction problems, long term difficulties, really vulnerable for who knows how many reasons. The charity gives people all the time they need and does not push them - rather, offers encouragement and a variety of activities on a drop-in basis, to help these people begin to re-engage. Last year there was a get together for the volunteers, staff, and local dignitaries. .. and the clients. The food was pleasant but simple and definitely not expensive; the drinks were all soft drinks. The founder/chairman (lovely man) opened by thanking all those present - first and foremost the clients (who were busily stuffing sandwiches into their pockets) - thanking them for giving the rest of us the opportunity to serve. To record it like this sounds a little patronising - trust me, it wasn't; it was heartfelt and must have gone a long way to acnowledging the client group as members of our society, our community. Then there was a dance with simple reels and progressive actions - and everyone got to join in. The homeless ones went back to the Night Shelter and such surplus food as there might have been went back with them. Genesis Trust

Don't see any gatehouses on Google maps (photos taken about 2009) - have they got the staff to actually man a gatehouse (let alone more than one)? "Everyone's welcome at the Way" - but it's a gated community? Imagine... a pair of double gates either end...in the shape of enormous arms ... flung (and kept) wide open in welcome. To signify that we are all always welcome in God's presence. Kinda like this:

Interesting ... all extremes of anything are dangerous. Can make the extremist a danger to himself and quite possibly to society as well. Fundies come in many guises - like Richard Dawkins with his anti-God stance - can't see, hear or deal with anyone else's point of view. I'm reading a book at the moment by Jon Krakauer about some Mormon fundies - "Banner of Heaven" - these fundies murdered a woman and her baby daughter in the name of their religion. It's not a brilliantly written book and is not easy reading. However, I read it with a sort of horrified "deja vu" feel - so much of what the Mormon fundy leaders are reported as saying sounds so very familiar... scary. And the cavalier attitude to passing women around as "wives" with the very sad effects on women and children (especially young girls) is heartbreaking. Under the Banner of Heaven In 2003, Under the Banner of Heaven became Krakauer's third non-fiction bestseller. The book examines extremes of religious belief, particularly fundamentalist offshoots of Mormonism. Specifically, Krakauer looks at the practice of polygamy among the fundamentalist Mormon religion and scrutinizes it under the context of Mormon religion throughout history past and present. Much of the focus of the book is on the Lafferty brothers, who murdered in the name of their fundamentalist faith. In 2006, Tom Elliott and Pawel Gula produced the documentary, Damned to Heaven, inspired by the book, Under the Banner of Heaven. All these fundamentalists - from TWI, Christian churches, Muslims, Japanese religions - all need to be treated with care. But not given into.

Regardless...I see people who are trinitarians, and those who are non-trinitarians, get prayers answered. Deeply committed people on both sides of this understanding. I reckon God, JC, CJ, whoever, whatever, the HS ...it doesn't bother them. They work not with the understanding but with the heart to know, love and serve. We all know imperfectly. We're all in for some surprises in that time when we shall know as we are known. Meanwhile - carry on loving and serving. (Not saying this isn't an interesting discussion ! :blush:)

We could drive 'em crazier than they already are, by arriving in small numbers in private cars and driving around and around on the public roads. If not breaking speed limits, thre's nothing they could do. Legally. Imagine... a couple of hundred cars - 800 cars - more! - driving up and down Weirwille Road. A little while before SNS starts - they might think they'd hit boom time and suddenly gained in popularity. Heh heh ... leave it to you guys ... as I live overseas, a quick trip to Ohio doesn't feature prominently (or at all, actually) in my travel plans for the next 50 years.

The video's very interesting. People really adapted to their environment and working out excellent solutions. John's just showing that wonderfl TWI tendency to over-spiritualize everything. I wouldn't want to walk on the rotten bridge that he is trying to build.

mstar1, thanks for that inspirational video. The Brahmins of TWI (of which I count JL one; Rosie and CGeer others) do have that attitude of entitlement - and none of them the commensurate responsibility to give and share (except more spouting about their entitlement). Less integrity than the deserately poor people in mstar's video clip.

I have much better things to do with my time. Go to the pub. Read a non-TWI book. Hang out with non-TWI friends. Smell the roses. Enjoy life.

My understanding is not that it was used as a translation of YHWH but in the Septuagint as an alternative word by deliberate choice because use of the sacred name was ... too sacred. And the translators of the KJV followed the same pattern even tough it's not a part of western cultural heritage. Back to the topic - I still don't believe in any trinity, any concept of Jesus = God, as pre-existing other than in God's forethought (just as, indeed, you and I pre-existed in God's forethought - just as any couple planning a baby have that child pre-existing while they buy their house that will be big enough for their family even whilst actually being childless). How many times does the Bible refer to the MAN Jesus? The lamb of the flock? While God (YHWH) was busy in the OT, what was Jesus doing - lying around on a cloud? Not many refs to him except as a future redeemer. None as a presently active person, entity, being, whatever... Though I did hear one "pastor" say he was walking around with Daniel in the fiery furnace - and the same "pastor" said that Abraham meeting with angels in the desert and arguing about Sodom - well, one of the angels was actually Jesus. (No private interpretation there, then )