Twinky

I dunno, I read some Biblical principle, think about it, think about how it might play out in real life, try it out for myself (as Steve says, it's not necessarily intuitive) ... and I find a better result than going about (whatever) in my own bumbling way. When it "works" enough times, one might well form the opinion that even the bits that can't be tested out also "work". Even if it were all (and only) about just living this earthly life better, wouldn't it be worth it anyway? If VPW, LCM et al were all wrong - it's still each individual's personal responsibility to do the best they can with what they know. Sooner or later, the buck stops with each individual. There's no hiding behind VPW, LCM, etc indefinitely. Each of us can find out if it's true by reading, engaging brain, and DOING the best we can. God is just a little bigger than VPW, LCM etc and can show us where we were wrongly taught and show us better ways. "You can't go beyond what you've been taught" - said VPW. Well - how about being taught by that holy spirit within us - the Helper - with infinitely more wisdom than a puny fraudster? And with genuine care and concern, not with a view to what can be extracted at some later stage? And without even a "Christians Should Be Prosperous" booklet in sight? Heck, if you try enough you can even forgive those fraudsters at TWI. Doesn't mean you want to spend any more time with them. Nor that they will escape their merited punishment / lack of rewards, when it comes to dishing out the eternal benefits. That's God's privilege - to dish out as He sees fit.

Yeah, you can see all the kids canceling their FB accounts, can't you? Especially the kids who aren't Iranian - the Muslim kids living pleasantly with their neighbors in countries all over the world. These Iranian "Powers That Be" are afraid that, as happened with many of the "Arab Spring" countries, an uprising against them will be fomented over the net and on FB. You might wonder how many of the leaders themselves have FB accounts (perhaps under a false name) so that they can secretly spy on other people. Neither FB nor the Internet in general are either good - or bad. As with any other technology - it's how they are used. But hey - if you want to control people, control their access to information. Ban any sources other than your own. Can't see many European or US folk canceling their FB accounts.

I'll write to you separately, Geisha. Like Nike ...JUST DO IT. Be a doer of the Word - or biff it. Chuck your Bible in the bin, if you can't be bothered to even try it. That'd be honest. Let's face it - these "class-based ministries" have biffed ... the personal relationships with individuals, the personal relationship with God, constrained the power of God into rule-bound actions... may as well biff the book.

Naten...get a life. Go and count the blades of grass in the park. Am surprised your chosen activity does not make you violently ill. Personally, I can't bear to hear his voice.

Hey, he could have produced a "one body" analogy. Instead of limbs, branches, twigs - could've had arms, legs, hands, fingers, fingernails. We used to joke about that in my first twig - were individuals fingernails on the body of Christ? But better than the external physical body - what about the individual internal cells, like red blood cells, white blood cells, and other blood components - that circulate around the whole human body? Get to every part and perform their specific functions. How much better an analogy that would be - using the internal aspects of a human body. Each directed by the mind of Christ (not the mind of VPW).

Has this hit your area yet? Healing on the Streets A movement that started in Coleraine (Ireland) - coming out of Vineyard - and now operating in many cities in the UK. Christians from different churches in an area get out there in the streets (in my city, outside the Abbey) - set up a few chairs for the people to be prayed for to sit in, and have a team of about 1/2 doz people - they pray two by two and those who are not praying invite passers-by to seek healing. It's done in public, but there's nothing showy about it. Just people sitting together. What is interesting is that most of the healings reported (and there are many) are accepted by non-Christians. People professing Christian faith - for whatever reason don't seem to get or at least acknowledge the healing that has been given. As an outward manifestation of God's power, it's getting people talking! They say, "I suffered from a bad back/ leg/ severe headaches/ etc for years and now it's gone. How did you do that??" I think at "lower levels" of TWI there were some genuine healings. Because there was more genuine heart to please God. As one grew more "advanced" it became more formulaic and that's when the "blame the victim" mentality stuff got in. Also, some people (seeking healing) just didn't bother to take personal responsibility for what they did (like stuff their faces with food then get severe indigestion) thinking they had a "get out of jail free" card - get somebody to pray for them. It doesn't work like that. That's abuse ... like saying you can't sin just because you're born again... You can sleep with whomever you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences. You can abuse your body however you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences. You can willfully fail to do the necessary in any aspect of life and expect God to cover you - NO, there are still consequences.

I did hear that CFFM was doing a lot to try and heal old wounds. I used to listen to their sermons, can’t hack it any more. Since then I’ve heard less favorable things about CFFM. I also think there are a lot of WC out there who are still genuinely trying to help other people. Small fellowships in their homes. Are they splinters, or “just” real fellowships? When is a splinter a splinter? Only when it causes hurt? When it expands beyond a home fellowship? When it gets a hierachy? Maybe we need to define the term a little more.

Sorry, got a bit off topic there. It comes from current dealings with a client who hoards and hoards, and is terrified to throw anything away – old newspapers, birthday, Christmas and visiting cards from 15 years ago, looks like every letter anyone ever wrote to her, clothes in a trunk she hasn’t opened in 10 years, at least 50 pairs of shoes, food way past its use-by date. I asked if I could give some of the surplus clothing and food to a homeless charity. No, she would rather hoard to herself. She purports to be a Christian and has sought and received loads of Christian counseling and has all these Christian books about living, giving, mending relationships, be a friend, overcoming worry and fear, etc. But she doesn’t DO any of the stuff in her books. So she doesn’t get the fullest experience of God’s love in her life. And she doesn’t get the healing she clearly so desperately seeks. And she wonders why she still has problems. Be DOERS of the Word, not just HEARERS. ALLOW yourself to experience God at work in your life.

Socks, so right, no doubt that's why there is so much in the NT about being DOERS of the word, not just HEARERS. When we DO what it says, we get the results - we gain the experience - we learn - we can take on more stuff. Make it real in our lives. Wayfer thinking is so much "knowing" and not building on the real experience of "doing" - on parsing every word (and pretending to parse Greek or Hebrew) to draw out supposed nuances -then "teaching" how to apply - whereas the real skill of it is actually doing. For instance, it says: if you have two coats, give to the person who has none. Meaning: both more, and less, than that. Give of your surplus - not just your surplus overcoats. Don't hoard. Look out for other people - and other people's needs. Be willing and ready to share. THEN (when you give your surplus) you can expand your experience to include the experience the real joy of helping a person in need. AND you can overcome your poverty-thinking, your fear of not having enough. THEN you will "be enlarged" not just in this area of life, but in others too. That's a thousand times more important than merely knowing the scripture that says "give." BUT it has to come from the heart. We can challenge ourselves to believe the scriptures to grow in all areas of life (and many did, as newbie believers) (it was a daily challenge to me to catch the train!! How God helped me there!!!!) but being forced to do anything only turns our "experiences" into grudging and unprofitable miserable "works" and lessens the "experience." Our mighty leaders, especially the top bracket, didn't demonstrate that in their lives. A bowl of candy on the desk isn't the same as living and giving generously ... Giving surplus gifts away (LCM once gave away a shedload of knicknacks to my in rez WC) - isn't kind really, when many of those gifts were more or less demanded from others in the first place. They told the inrez Corps that we would have plenty of challenges to rise to the word. Yeah, right. Many of them were "engineered" by causing unnecessary stress on the Corps. You sleep-deprive people enough - they will be snappy with each other. Problems will arise. Then we need to seek "forgiveness" and "forbearance." You set people to spy on each other and demand "reporting back" - that breeds anxiety and suspicion, not confidence. You criticize and complain enough and don't acknowledge ability, talent or initiative - ... Whereas, in fact, it is the gentleness of God that draws us. Not His pressure-cooker beating down. (Just to mix a few metaphors.) Now that's an experience I didn't get in the Corps.

Or even, learned to drivel.

Amazing hat anybody bothered to contact you - but then you left them. If they'd kicked you out, nobody would've contacted you.Yep, it's all about control. Who's in control? You were! Well done. Yeah, that would've happened too. They would have snared you with your own words. Another way to exercize control/damage limitation. You can be sure that if your name came up, your reputation was blackened anyway. I'm glad for you that you can maintain a relationship with the rest of your family still in TWI. It must be difficult at times. For all of you.

PFAL on Twitter, maybe? With RHST on Kindle? Buy your required reading on TWI-Bay?

Long time since we've seen you here, Pete. Happy New Year, or Hogmanay if that's what you celebrate (or happy Christmas, getting in early for next year). You are such a great thinker...have another drink. Think some for me. Oh...that would be drink some for me.

I shall be getting more and more involved in the church plant that I've volunteered to attend/work at. The new church is in a deprived area, and I hope to see people blossom and move into positively fruitful lives, being released from the misery of poverty and addiction. I shall be more involved in another Christian organisation (Street Pastors) which goes out on Friday and Saturday nights 10pm-3am in my city, reaching out to anyone in need - for whatever reason. And I shall be preparing for another half marathon (in early March) as a fundraiser for a charity to help the real "dregs of society" - not just a charity run by Christians, but one which provides support for the people to reintegrate into society and also gives them the opportunity to explore Christianity in a non-threatening way. Oh, and at the end of Jan I'm away on hols overseas. First long hol in over 4 years. Somewhere in all of that I'll be plugging away at my new business, taking care of people's physical needs (gardening, housecleaning, companionship...) and generally doing whatever God sends my way. It's a wonderful life. Every minute is exciting.

>>What I thought of the article: Cringe, run away and hide. Or bang the silly head of the author against the wall. Couldn't read it, just skipped over the oily phrases. >>Non-doctrinal response: Give 'em a link to GSC ! Maybe to the Actual errors in PFAL paper on the front page. Few words, just a link saying: Some interesting additional info here: (link)

Be "grace"ful about it though.

I went to stay with an SP who'd been very good to me and supported me generously financially. I didn't know many people in the US and nobody invited me to stay with them. So I visited this SP. Nobody ever challenged me about it. But apparently he got it in the neck from someone higher up his part of the Way tree and he (not I) was told I should have gone to some other place (not specified) and stayed with other SPs (none of whom had invited me) and taught them what I had learned in rez. HQ also told all the inrez corps they could not stay there over the hols and had to go out and share what they had learned in rez. This is not a big help to International Corps, who can't return to home areas. They didn't suggest who I should stay with nor offer "help" with who or where Internationals should go nor how Internationals should pay for travel to other areas. I think, now, I'm glad they didn't tell me where to go (I might have reciprocated) ... I forgot NY Eve is VPW's birthday. And there was the compulsory show, sort of variety performance, in the auditorium. I did enjoy some of the presentations. Never quite got the "praying in the new year" stuff. Still don't. Since New Year is an arbitrary date (as to when it falls) shouldn't all dates be treated the same? A new year at sowing time in spring or after the harvest is gathered in, makes more sense.

Enjoy, have a good time, have a drink or two or three... two drink limit doesn't apply.

If he did any of that when you were there, Wordy One, he certainly didn't when I was in rez.He did say that "mass" was a celebration of death - but that was all. In fact - "mass" is simply a variant of an old word meaning "meal" (like "mess" - a mess room isn't a messy room but one where one eats). It's a "Christ meal" - a meal of celebration. When I was in rez, there used to be a lovely decorated tree that would be placed in the entrance lobby to the OSC. And Mrs W would give "holiday gifts" to everyone. After going through a period of "Season's Greetings" - I don't care, will wish people happy Christmas, accept merry Xamas... I don't care. Please just enjoy yourselves in a pleasant and peaceable way.

Or if you've left and are thinking of going back...as I was...Google brought up GSC before The Way International...and after About The Way forum, I never got as far as TWI. There are enough escapees worldwide that you needn't feel alone.

Or if you can't or don't want to speak with people - read the boards here. Prepare to be shocked to the core.

If you want a raspy voice try . Same but different.

Good point Waysider, never thought of that. Just think...if you were deaf, you'd never have heard PFAL or VPW ranting on - and specifically never have heard LCM the arch-ranter goiong on. But then - you'd've been cast out long before as having weak believing, not having been healed. (No offence meant to any deaf people out there, not mocking you, just that organization.)

I thought you meant this kind of muzzle loader: Well it's got a loaded muzzle...!

And yet, who did JC hang out with? People in pubs, ordinary guys, prostitutes, wasters, ne'er do wells... He knows our weaknesses and loves us in spite of. If JC in all his goodness wasn't ashamed or too embarrassed or too "holy" to mix with them...why should we be afraid to present ourselves to God, in all our weaknesses? And to ask him for help, protection, whatever... as we might ask a loving earthly father? Who loves us despite our selfishness and adolescent antagonism. God's goodness and lovingkindness confronts us... urges a more worthy endeavor... not terror of him. Surely that would just make any "recipient" (?) to want to hide under a rock - not seek the protection of the Rock. Maybe, Geisha, we'll just have to differ about this. It's for each of us to form our own relationship with our Father. He loves us dearly no matter where we're coming from.