Twinky

Back to the topic... How much time did LCM spend at Gunnison, then? When? Don't know that he ever went when I was in rez, nor in the years before. Did he become a frequent visitor when JH was there? Which inrez Corps years are you talking about him attacking ("seduction" isn't at all the right word!)? WC24, WC26, WC30, when, which? (And I bet when he went there, he didn't spend two days driving, to a strict timetable, either.)

I think it's still demisING not completely demisED yet. h the link on p.1 didn't work for me. Try this one: My link

That's exactly what I am trying to ascertain. Waydom put a lot on this figure. Actually Bullinger says very little about it. Very little. But VPW said very much. I am not saying that either is right or wrong. It comes down to a question of balance, I suppose. VPW was no expert on a good many things, grammar being one of them. In fact, his grammar and understanding of the most basic of parts of speech was appalling. I learned more than he spouted off in primary school at age - what? 8?? And much more when at secondary school (age 11) where study of English language (parsing, structure of sentences, parts of speech) was a requirement. So whenever he spouted off on some supposed explanation of English my brain would go "uh-uh." I think VPW calls this FoS "permissio." Sounds good...Bullinger never calls it that! God is good always. I don't think He brings about disasters, to anyone - after all His desire is for all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that goes wrong, an earthquake say, is not "God's will." Though by Him all things cohere, including presumably the very rocks that suffered an earthquake. A grammatician's take on this would be interesting. There are two universities in the city I live in, but neither of them is strong on the study of languages. Otherwise I would enquire there.

The AC that LCM taught in 1992 was supposed to be new, not just rehash of VPW's. I suppose we were given some reason. I could look in my journals for the relevant time and see what pearls of wisdom were dispensed. But would any such reasons given be true anyway? Wouldn't be the first time the "truth" has changed well after the event. I didn't know he'd done another in 1998.

"unrelated business taxable income" would probably cover things like book and magazine sales, ticket sales for events (eg, the now defunct RoA), class fees. It's unrelated because it's making a profit - more than just covering the costs of producing the materials. Of course there is lots of fudge room. Printing costs, for example. (Sometimes the printing part of an entity will be hived off under a separate name.) Anyway - who cares what they call themselves? None of the names is the truth ... I don't see "den of thieves" or "nest of vipers" in their organization description.

Geisha, not only do I have TWO Companion Bibles, I also have Bullinger's Figures of Speech used in the Bible. What I want to know is: does anybody else recognize this figure of speech - idiom of permission? Or was it Bullinger's invention, and glorified by VPW? Maybe it is a figure of speech in Hebrew or Aramaic or Latin or some other language - but not in English? @ Naten: it's when the Bible says God did something, brought on some catastrophe. As God is good always, he clearly doesn't bring on catastrophes. Therefore, it is a figure of speech to say that God allowed (gave permission) for that catastrophe. EG: Gen 7:4 - "every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." The "will I destroy" is this FoS - God allowed it to happen. (By the by - but this is NOT the idiom of permission - God, of course, intervened so that Noah, his family, various animals, etc survived. And the earth was not destroyed). Bullinger says (under section Idioma (i)(4), on page 823: "Active verbs were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do." This link might work: Companion Bible pages (Bet you wish you'd never asked, huh?) Waydom made such a big deal of this FoS. Looking at it again in Bullinger's books, it's such a small section you'd wonder how VPW found it -- the Companion Bible doesn't mention it.

Yes, Waysider, I tried a Google search. Wayferdom rules the roost. And googling any combination with "grammar" and "idiom" brings up kiddie stuff for learners of English. Penworks? Anybody else?

Outside of Waydom and mini-me Waydom (splinter groups), has anybody ever heard of the "idiom of permission"? If yes - in the sense promoted by VPW? Bullinger has an article on it which VPW has picked up on (plagiarized from someone else's work), of course, but apart from that? Anybody out there who has a degree in English Lit or is a grammar teacher who can shed any light? I got into a discussion with my church's "vicar theologian" (a highly educated man, with real research papers to his name) - suggested something could be this "idiom of permission" - he gave me that pained, patient "what planet are you from?" look that Wayfers become all too familiar with when speaking with "church" people. So just wondering...

Oh lunchtimes...I remember some of LCM's rants. One of 'em went on for...a couple of hours, I think. Must have been something really important. Some staff discreetly left. Most didn't. 400 or so people captive... taken away from their valuable jobs. No wonder a number of members of staff just didn't bother coming to the midday meal. And hey, it wasn't just lunchtime. We could get that for breakfast (though that was more usually the Corps Coordinator) and once in a while for the evening meal. Indigestion, anyone?

I think that just about sums it up. We got those "16 keys to walking in the spirit" and it all became paint-by-numbers, gotta do it this way, and rather than walking by the spirit, we ended up straight-jacketing the spirit. Which puts the AC in direct contravention of what God says.

It's such a badly written article, and so opinionated, that whatever it purports to say is no more relevant than the author's opinion. All it exposes is the author's lack of literacy. It no more "proves" that LCM said what he said, than it proves the moon is made of green cheese. Now if the information were from the Baptist church records...that would be different. But it isn't.

When I first knew Ed, he seemed like a nice guy, diligent, hardworking, honest - strict, but wanted to get the best out of people. Over the time, however, as he settled more into being Corps Coord, he got harder and less fun to be around. No telling what pressures had been exerted on him by LCM. Maybe even at that stage he was disgusted by him but like so many, didn't know what to do, or thought he could change things from the inside. Or maybe in an effort to fix things he was just wading deeper and deeper into the mire. Now back to the AC...

Actually, OldSkool, the AC was recorded way before all the rest of it. The AC was recorded about 1992 or 1993. Then (I think) the Intermediate. Finally the Foundational one, WAP (which happily I never endured). And now Rosie has re-done them....

I was in rez when LCM recorded his Advanced Class. He had a trial run first. It seemed pretty good to me at the time. But by then I was much more of a Wayferhead. Even so, it didn't stop me being aware of some basic "wordly" errors (like grammatical stuff). Some of the sessions were where we seated in the auditorium in front of him. Then we were banished to the side room and watched him on a video link. He said that he found himself teaching to the needs of the people sitting in front of him, rather than to the needs of the people who would watch the class on video. Or was that Defeating the Adversary??? Then there were various Advanced Class Specials and such like. In common with other inrez Corps, we saw nothing of these as we were busy "serving" and doing support roles. At one such, I was working 20 hr days on Beverage Crew. (Try doing that for two weeks and keeping a smile on your face. When I burst into tears and had a hissy fit after about 10 days, I got reamed out for letting DSs infiltrate my thinking and trying to wreck the class. However, one of my Corps sisters with a lighter role did offer to help me by doing my laundry.) So you could say, my expectations for the AC were - work, work, work, and more work. :unsure:

OldSkool, are you saying that Jacqui H is another of LCM's women? If so, when, what sort of time period? (Mind you, doesn't surprise me...have ceased to be surprised by such revelations. I thought the H0rn3ys were basically all right. J was quite fun to be around and quite laid back. E had a sterner side. He liked getting stuck into work though, hard worker, led from the front as far as I could ascertain. (They were my Corps Coords). He gave us some serious tickings-off though and once threatened to kick us all out because some weren't wearing hats on a calm day when the air temp was subzero, and a few other things like that. I got the impression that it wasn't really "him" but something he'd learned as an add-on, or been told to do or was trying to measure up to doing. Anyway back to the AC - too long ago to remember, but from high expectations, I wondered if I'd missed something. I did find some time afterwards though to study (alone) various words relating to healing, cure, etc, an interest from the AC. Also studied some stuff about what are signs, what are miracles, and what are wonders, and who each is aimed at. That was interesting.

Ah, the true meaning of Humpty Dumpty. Which is that man cannot analyse life, can pull the component parts apart but cannot reassemble them to make something capable of growing...life. (A bit like, a cake is flour, butter, sugar, eggs and such else as one might include...but the "entire" thing, the cake, is much more than just its component parts) In light of advances in IVF and removal of parts of eggs and bits of DNA, to be substituted by parts of other eggs and DNA...I wonder if TWI would still hold to the same exegesis? Anyway, Wikipedia makes no mention of this "true meaning" - Humpty Dumpty

Couldn't say as I never met the man. I don't think I can agree with you that he was a lazy farmer. He appears to me to be a very good farmer. He farmed mugs and was very successful. He's built up a huge fortune from growing mugs; the bulk of the fortune still exists. He kept back some of the mug seed, planted again, refined the strain and got better and better and again got good yields. In fact, the seed from the mugs continues to be fairly successful and has been planted in other fertile ground and has brought forth many other crops and strains of mugs. :P

I dunno, I read some Biblical principle, think about it, think about how it might play out in real life, try it out for myself (as Steve says, it's not necessarily intuitive) ... and I find a better result than going about (whatever) in my own bumbling way. When it "works" enough times, one might well form the opinion that even the bits that can't be tested out also "work". Even if it were all (and only) about just living this earthly life better, wouldn't it be worth it anyway? If VPW, LCM et al were all wrong - it's still each individual's personal responsibility to do the best they can with what they know. Sooner or later, the buck stops with each individual. There's no hiding behind VPW, LCM, etc indefinitely. Each of us can find out if it's true by reading, engaging brain, and DOING the best we can. God is just a little bigger than VPW, LCM etc and can show us where we were wrongly taught and show us better ways. "You can't go beyond what you've been taught" - said VPW. Well - how about being taught by that holy spirit within us - the Helper - with infinitely more wisdom than a puny fraudster? And with genuine care and concern, not with a view to what can be extracted at some later stage? And without even a "Christians Should Be Prosperous" booklet in sight? Heck, if you try enough you can even forgive those fraudsters at TWI. Doesn't mean you want to spend any more time with them. Nor that they will escape their merited punishment / lack of rewards, when it comes to dishing out the eternal benefits. That's God's privilege - to dish out as He sees fit.

Yeah, you can see all the kids canceling their FB accounts, can't you? Especially the kids who aren't Iranian - the Muslim kids living pleasantly with their neighbors in countries all over the world. These Iranian "Powers That Be" are afraid that, as happened with many of the "Arab Spring" countries, an uprising against them will be fomented over the net and on FB. You might wonder how many of the leaders themselves have FB accounts (perhaps under a false name) so that they can secretly spy on other people. Neither FB nor the Internet in general are either good - or bad. As with any other technology - it's how they are used. But hey - if you want to control people, control their access to information. Ban any sources other than your own. Can't see many European or US folk canceling their FB accounts.

I'll write to you separately, Geisha. Like Nike ...JUST DO IT. Be a doer of the Word - or biff it. Chuck your Bible in the bin, if you can't be bothered to even try it. That'd be honest. Let's face it - these "class-based ministries" have biffed ... the personal relationships with individuals, the personal relationship with God, constrained the power of God into rule-bound actions... may as well biff the book.

Naten...get a life. Go and count the blades of grass in the park. Am surprised your chosen activity does not make you violently ill. Personally, I can't bear to hear his voice.

Hey, he could have produced a "one body" analogy. Instead of limbs, branches, twigs - could've had arms, legs, hands, fingers, fingernails. We used to joke about that in my first twig - were individuals fingernails on the body of Christ? But better than the external physical body - what about the individual internal cells, like red blood cells, white blood cells, and other blood components - that circulate around the whole human body? Get to every part and perform their specific functions. How much better an analogy that would be - using the internal aspects of a human body. Each directed by the mind of Christ (not the mind of VPW).

Has this hit your area yet? Healing on the Streets A movement that started in Coleraine (Ireland) - coming out of Vineyard - and now operating in many cities in the UK. Christians from different churches in an area get out there in the streets (in my city, outside the Abbey) - set up a few chairs for the people to be prayed for to sit in, and have a team of about 1/2 doz people - they pray two by two and those who are not praying invite passers-by to seek healing. It's done in public, but there's nothing showy about it. Just people sitting together. What is interesting is that most of the healings reported (and there are many) are accepted by non-Christians. People professing Christian faith - for whatever reason don't seem to get or at least acknowledge the healing that has been given. As an outward manifestation of God's power, it's getting people talking! They say, "I suffered from a bad back/ leg/ severe headaches/ etc for years and now it's gone. How did you do that??" I think at "lower levels" of TWI there were some genuine healings. Because there was more genuine heart to please God. As one grew more "advanced" it became more formulaic and that's when the "blame the victim" mentality stuff got in. Also, some people (seeking healing) just didn't bother to take personal responsibility for what they did (like stuff their faces with food then get severe indigestion) thinking they had a "get out of jail free" card - get somebody to pray for them. It doesn't work like that. That's abuse ... like saying you can't sin just because you're born again... You can sleep with whomever you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences. You can abuse your body however you like - it's a grace administration. NO, there are still consequences. You can willfully fail to do the necessary in any aspect of life and expect God to cover you - NO, there are still consequences.

I did hear that CFFM was doing a lot to try and heal old wounds. I used to listen to their sermons, can’t hack it any more. Since then I’ve heard less favorable things about CFFM. I also think there are a lot of WC out there who are still genuinely trying to help other people. Small fellowships in their homes. Are they splinters, or “just” real fellowships? When is a splinter a splinter? Only when it causes hurt? When it expands beyond a home fellowship? When it gets a hierachy? Maybe we need to define the term a little more.

Sorry, got a bit off topic there. It comes from current dealings with a client who hoards and hoards, and is terrified to throw anything away – old newspapers, birthday, Christmas and visiting cards from 15 years ago, looks like every letter anyone ever wrote to her, clothes in a trunk she hasn’t opened in 10 years, at least 50 pairs of shoes, food way past its use-by date. I asked if I could give some of the surplus clothing and food to a homeless charity. No, she would rather hoard to herself. She purports to be a Christian and has sought and received loads of Christian counseling and has all these Christian books about living, giving, mending relationships, be a friend, overcoming worry and fear, etc. But she doesn’t DO any of the stuff in her books. So she doesn’t get the fullest experience of God’s love in her life. And she doesn’t get the healing she clearly so desperately seeks. And she wonders why she still has problems. Be DOERS of the Word, not just HEARERS. ALLOW yourself to experience God at work in your life.