Twinky

I wouldn't like to roast TWI at all. It would give one very bad indigestion. At the very least. I'd like to roast ... a nice leg of lamb ... or some pork ... and some pumpkin and other vegetables ... and some nice potatoes. Roast them, and make something useful. Yum.

You know, don't you, that "prosper" doesn't necessarily mean financially? A better meaning from our current vocabulary might be "thrive" - or just "do well". Plants in the garden can prosper. After a visit to someone, you might be asked if it was a prosperous visit - ie, did you have a nice time together? It's another of those words that VPW took out of context - he added a 20th century meaning to a 16th century word. And he chose a word that is very emotive in our day and time - isn't part of the American dream to do well financially for oneself? To build up material wealth? But what are we exhorted to do? This is how to prosper, from God's point of view: And this is how to lay up those treasures, explicitly: I do not see much there, about accreting money, physical wealth, to oneself. Interestingly, although money is mentioned in the extract from Timothy, it's not in context of tithing to one's church leaders, etc, as covered in the booklet Christians should be Prosperous - but in context of giving it away and being generous and sharing with unspecified others.

I think Rocky has it. You can see what's happening, but you can't make up your friend's mind. You can be ready with a shoulder to cry on. Remember how difficult it was for you, at times. Remember how traumatic it's been for some people whose stories you have read here. Be supportive and maybe you can find some other support for her - support groups or whatever. It's clear you don't like the husband much. Try not to slag him off too much, but it would be fair to draw parallels between how his behavior differs from that seen in Jesus and his followers (you already have the lowdown on that!). Pray for them both. You don't know what things have really gone into the husband's make-up that make him who he is, and why this cult he's joined satisfies his needs - what he finds there that satisfies. Be non-judgmental, but firm about boundaries that you will accept in his behavior if he visits you. Or if the wife does leave and seeks safety at your house.

That might not be a bad idea. Will see if I can fit one in. We're doing this at church as seeking release from the addiction of "self" and turning to God/Jesus to rescue us from our addition. Alternatively, to our addition to consumerism, shopping, anything else. I think that some people really don't "get it" even though it's made abundantly clear that this series isn't just in relation to alcohol use. I suppose you could say that many in the congregation are in denial that they are addicted to self-love, or to keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever else distracts them from being fully committed in all their lifestyle to Godly goals.

Thanks, newlife, really appreciate your comments. I understand AA started as a program based on Christian principles but the principles were widened a bit to accommodate non-Christians. Which is why some say things like "...God as we understood him." No program, church, class, whatever, will help those who are just "bums on seats" and not there to really learn or understand. That's probably why TWI went after "those who really want to know" - rather than spend time showing those who lurk in the fringes and showing them authentic Christianity.

My client that I mentioned had managed to give up (on his own) for 18 months after having been hospitalised and "dried out." His old friends and a disastrous relationship dragged him back into it. He tried recently to cut down drastically (on his own) and ended up being hospitalised again for a short period with "he says) the worst DTs the doctor had seen. He doesn't want that to happen again. If he finds the support he needs from AA, I'll be delighted for him. He seems to have the motivation. We all need support to change. Loving support. Speaking the truth in love. (Or at least kindness, maybe, from AA.) The Bible talks a lot about two by two - helping each other. Encouragement. Hey, go out today and find random people to say something encouraging to. And don't forget to speak kind and encouraging words to your spouse, your kids, your workmates... God bless and have a great day, y'all.

Are you sure you didn't mis-hear, Geisha? Sure that was "mystery," was it? Not "misery"?

I do advice work in a voluntary capacity. A man came in on Friday. He 'fesses up to being an alcoholic - started drinking at age 15, now 38. After years of not admitting a problem, he now acknowledges it and is determined to beat it. I had no hesitation in recommending him to get started with AA and get along to the meetings - even printed him a list straight from their website showing all nearby meetings. I hope it works out for him. I certainly don't think it will hinder or harm him. I would never have recommended this step to him without your helpful comments on this thread.

Hi Dot, nice to see you. You don't seem to have been around in a long time. Married life must be agreeing with you.

I don't know if VPW spoke against the 12 steps. I do know LCM spoke against the program, as being a counterfeit. As for VPW, reports here suggest he was an alcoholic who didn't recognize it, or recognized it and didn't care to do anything about it. (He was also addicted to nicotine - there's a Nicotine Anonymous set-up like the Alkies Anon groups). Maybe VPW had tried one or other programs and failed to stick to the program. (...or maybe not; if he had, he would surely have incorporated it into PFAL somehow.) I am sure that these programs have enough expertise to not only help people contain their cravings for whatever their additions are, but also to help them recognize associated physical illnesses (like recognizing signs of liver failure or lung disease) and encouraging participants to get medical attention and maintain any physical regimes that may also be necessary. In other words, they deal with an aspect of addiction but not all aspects - not liver or lung transplants, not expecting miraculous cures - not over-promising, but being there and being wholly supportive. Something to be learned from that, too. Not something you'd want to do, though, if you want to garner all the glory and all the attention (and all the money) to your own organization. Has anyone got any other "12 steps helped me/my acquaintance" stories in areas other than alcoholism? Overcoming drug addition, maybe, or overcoming other problems?

Yes, I'm sure one could become "addicted" to the meetings...friendship, companionship, likeminded people, wanting to be understood, not judged - same sort of thing that brings people into churches - or cults. Tonight at church was the 8th step in this "spiritual journey" that they're taking us on. I have to say, since starting this thread and considering all your replies, I've found this evenings talk (sermon) more helpful and listened to it in some different sort of way. The way the sermon series is being presented is: we're addicted to self. Addition to ego. To our greedy desires. To our "oil addiction" in use of cars, plastics, etc. Our addition to the "now" culture. Or maybe to computers, games, Facebook, etc, which are often used to substitute for real companionship with the people right there in front of you. The vicar in charge would like us to reflect on our lives, how to examine some of our barriers to God, and how we can become more open to God working in our lives.

Thanks for your contribution, Johniam, but it really would be more helpful if the topic remained a discussion about the 12 steps and whether they are useful or not.

Ham, it was the notes in the Companion Bible to Leviticus that got me interested in understanding the Bible more - the precision of the description for the tabernacle and its symbolism. If that can become rivetingly interesting, well ...! I had that book re-bound once - or was it twice? - so many notes all over it. I was given another when I graduated the WC. That one's still in pristine condition. I don't much read KJV now. I certainly wouldn't want to read any of the notes scribbled in the margins.

... Or any other illness - physical or mental. ... Or any other kind of problem, relationship, work, personal ... money... It was only "Believe what the Word says!" without the practical help to take the necessary action. I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him. I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think.

Is how I remember it, too. The 12-step program is a "spiritual counterfeit." (Hmph!!) Good on your uncle, OS, for finally coming to his senses. OperaBuff, no Craig didn't have a drink problem. He had a food problem - overate and got very fat in the "fog years" - and then slimmed down pretty well.

Thanks, all, and Newlife especially, for your really thoughtful post. I think the real objection of LCM was to the phrase in steps 3 and 11: God as we understood Him. Our job is to teach fully and acc'rately who God is, doncha know! And that alone would help people. And step 4 requires thinking and introspection - not "action." Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. TWI isn't good at giving real practical help to those who need it. Individuals are, yes, but the organization as a whole, no. And having to deal with people with complex problems (because addiction doesn't come alone) takes time - time that could be spent "moving the word." In addition, TWI isn't giving to allowing people time for introspective soul-searching. Quiet time meditating on the Word. It seems to me that to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of" oneself can take a very long time. Yet not to do that, at least at some level, means the "old man nature" is simply dormant, not dead, in those areas where one doesn't allow the fullness of the new birth to take effect. 2 Cor 10:5,6 exhort us: How can you bring "every thought" into captivity, cast down every imagination etc, if you don't root out where such thoughts and imaginations come from? If you only keep stamping on the "thought" rather than considering why you keep getting such thoughts and then rooting that out, you're not really dealing with the problem. You're simply knocking on the door of the stronghold, not working out a strategy to destroy the stronghold itself.

LCM used to shout about what a counterfeit the 12 step program was/is. (Maybe he learned that from VPW, would he think of that himself?) I know nothing about this program personally; I do know a few people who have suffered from alcohol addiction who have found the AA program very helpful. I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addition to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc). The sermon series is based on a book called Breathing Underwater by Richard Rohr These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?

Och, you remind me of things I'd forgotten ... how I was spied on when in rez and the times I retired at night reported to the Corps Coord and thence to LCM ... the frogmarching off to meetings with Craig or the CC - not for a facemelting but for a very quiet (chilling) reprimand and his pitiful sighs about my spiritual ability ... how horrified (if not to say terrified) I felt when after graduation I thought I might have to go back to HQ and work on staff ... the ultra-organization of one's time ... too much stuff that I am not going to dredge up. I live a nice life now, thanks, and truly feel that I am SERVING GOD AND SERVING HIS PEOPLE. And in return I feel genuinely loved by God, and genuinely cared for by people at my church. Oh and I make occasional mistakes along the line and people just smile lovingly and say, don't worry about it. Oh what a cop-out I am (NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heh, no "appearance of illness" but actually severe illness. Lots of sorrow and disappointment ... mostly because he didn't get the enormous respect his ego demanded. Dirty snow - could that be, "the air was black with snow"? Never any reconciliation, though. Looking through a window - lots of very angry interviews...but not with sweethearts, only with the people he was supposed to care for. Maybe there is some truth in this "dram" thing, after all.

Is that their slogan now? Prevailing word TO the world? I thought it was Prevailing word OVER the world. Or maybe just Prevailing word. Craig announced (didn't he?) that the word had gone over the world and now TWI wasn't talking in terms of Word Over the Word but God's Prevailing Word. @ Dabobbada - that's funny!

Newlife, ESV is quite interesting. Gooey...hey, go for it. I hear that Jesus snuggled down under the bedclothes with his bicycle lamp, to read the Bible, LOL.

This man has cost the British legal aid system millions in legal aid. Not to mention the cost of keeping him in prison. Glad you're around to share the burden. He's working your legal aid system now. I gather he isn't to be sent to your special holiday camp in the sun. Pity, he might like it there. A small island in the middle of a shark-infested ocean would be a good alternative. I have no doubt that some in the US will attempt to make a political point out of it. But who, and what point ... maybe both sides will claim (?) him. He might try to claim asylum. He did in the UK, on the basis that his human rights would be breached if sent back to Jordan (where he's a native of) because they might torture him. There's a saying in law that "he who seeks equity must come with clean hands" - don't beg for fairness if you haven't been fair - one can only guess at how many other people's human rights have been breached by and as a result of the (alleged) actions of this man, and others of his ilk. Young men corrupted, others killed, blackmailed or injured; many innocent victims of deliberate killings and bombings; and the damage to the families of those folks. Not a nice man.

This wonderful specimen of a human being (cough) has now pleaded Not Guilty to 11 charges of terrorism, including one of trying to set up a terrorist training camp in Oregon. Abu Hamza in NY He claims to be mentally unfit to plead. Poor soul.

Don't know if this has received much publicity over in the US, but this alleged terrorist has been manipulating the British and European legal systems for years. He's not even a Brit, but abused asylum granted to him, corrupted idealistic young men, preached very evil acts, and has upon his arrest claimed "human rights" to avoid extradition. Abu Hamza At last he is on his way to you folks in the USA. Treat him kindly...more kindly than he treated his victims, whether they be those stupid young idealists (we all know what that was like) or innocent passersby. You're welcome to him. No need to think of sending him back to us.

Calm down, geisha. Switch to decaff. Steve, you're going to spend three hours expounding on this one verse to your profs? Though that of course means that you've spent a good many other hours working everything else in this section of 1 Cor and a good few other places as well. (Three hours...!)